Cheap Turning Tools

[Kent Reisdorph]

My wife bought me these (unfortunately):



While considered garbage, I can grind some of them into specialty tools. What I don't know is what "tempered steel" means vs. HSS. Google wasn't much help. Any ideas?

 

[Mike Novak]

I bought those as my first set. I wanted something I wouldn’t mind ruining as I learned to sharpen. Replaced with Sorby pretty quickly. I ground one of the scrapers to make tenons. The rest live in a drawer now.

In hindsight, I should have gone straight to Sorby. I didn’t waste much steel learning to sharpen using the Tormek jigs.

 

[Paul May]

I have an old POS point tool like the one on the far right. I keep it sharp and use it to profile tenons to an angle before mounting the piece in a chuck.

 

[John K Jordan]

A quick google search shows one with the same brand name, but part #69723, at least claims to be HSS:
(screen capture)


But unless I see HSS on the tool I assume it's some type of carbon steel, hardened and tempered. This means, of course, you can loose the hardness at the edge if overheated when grinding to reshape or even when sharpening. I’d sharpen gently with much cooling unless using a water wheel like the Tormek.

You could potentially waste one and test to see if it's HSS: heat tip to red with grinder or torch, let cool in air, then test for hardness with a file. (I use a small triangular file.)

I save many tools and I bought cheap or were given to me and grind them into special tools or give to beginners. I test all unmarked tools with the file - hardened will skid, unhardened will cut. It’s surprising at how short the heat treating is on some old/cheap tools - I seen a bunch that were hardened for just a few inches from the tip.

I’ve made things from O1 oil-quenched tool steel (heat till a magnet won’t stick then cool quickly in oil, then temper at 400F for toughness.)
Some stuff about tool steels for the incurably curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel

If interested in more, a knife-making forum might be interesting browsing.
But it’s probably not worth the effort! Just tell your wife “thanks” and take her out to dinner! (Maybe next year ask if she would like a wish list! We've been doing that.)

JKJ

 

[Richard Coers]

HSS is a broad term for an alloy (recipe) of the steel. Tempered describes part of the heat treating process for carbon steel

 

[Rick Moreton]

I have the deluxe "Professional" version as my first set (HSS and dyed handles). I still use them plus a Benjamin's Best bowl gouge for most of my turning. The ones I have are fine other than sharpening a little more often. I take classes at the local community college and while they have some nicer tools, it's a crapshoot if they are sharpened correctly, if at all. I sometimes wish I brought these from home rather than dealing with the school's. They are also nice to try out new grinds without worrying about ruining a good tool. HF seems to be phasing out this line and these are now in the clearance section. The Bauer set they are selling now looks like it might be an improvement over these, at least it comes with a bowl gouge.

 

[john lucas]

You can tell if it's HSS using the spark test. Just google it and you can find youtube videos on how to tell the difference. They could simply be hardened high carbon steel which many turners used for a long time before High speed steel became available.

 

[Curt Fuller]

Those will make great detail tools. I use a couple of similar harbor fright tools like those that I can sharpen to a particular need when turning fine spindles and such. Probably don't remove a handful of wood shavings with them but they've worked great when needed.

 

[Terry Vaughan]

But unless I see HSS on the tool I assume it's some type of carbon steel, hardened and tempered. This means, of course, you can loose the hardness at the edge if overheated when grinding to reshape or even when sharpening.


JKJ

HSS etched on the tool is no guarantee. I’ve seen turning tools, and drill bits, marked as HSS but actually carbon steel. It doesn’t mean the tool is useless, but dishonest claims by the manufacturer don’t inspire confidence.

The spark test can work well to tell you what the steel is, but there is a spectrum of carbon content and sometimes the result can be less clear cut.

 

[Bill Blasic]

The only tools that I have heard of being marked HSS that ended up not being so were some Benjamin Best tools early on (probably not heat treated fully or wrong). Have not heard anything more about that as the problem was probably fixed.

 

[Tim Hunter]

Two different kits are shown above…the first (and subject of the OP) is a set of sub-size small cheap tools, most likely just Q&T carbon steel. In contrast, the set John posted is a full-size set of better tools that I suspect really are HSS. The cheapies might still be handy to have for occasionally needed speciality-ground detail tools (but likely nothing that couldn’t be done with typical tools.)

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

You can tell if it's HSS using the spark test. Just google it and you can find youtube videos on how to tell the difference. They could simply be hardened high carbon steel which many turners used for a long time before High speed steel became available.

Oh, yeah. I forgot about the spark test.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Thanks all for the comments. I'm sure I can grind some of those into useful tools.

 

[John Grace]

Thanks all for the comments. I'm sure I can grind some of those into useful tools.

In the end, the only difference is how long it maintains an edge. If you use a tool three minutes per year then I too am buying the cheapest available.

 

[Gregory Hickman]

I've been looking at getting some BB tools. I'm a new turner, investing in many aspects of the craft. Getting a tool that is low end of the cost spectrum, while still being quality steel, even a step down, makes the most sense. I know that after I start to invest in better chisels, the ones I buy know can be re-ground into specialty tools. They may become unitaskers, but so what, I'll be extending their usefulness while keeping my initial costs down. I see that as a win/win.

Gregory

 

[Josh Mandell]

For what its worth, I bought a set of Benjamins Best tools years ago after reading somewhere that, among the "cheap" tool brands, their steel held a decent edge, at least for a new turner starting out and making lots of mistakes. The low cost has given me a sense of freedom to experiment with regrinding profiles to try something new where I might be hesitant with more expensive tools. I've since added to my collection from the premium brands and certainly use those tools the most & can notice a difference in how well they hold an edge. But starting out with that "ok" set of tools was a good way to start for me.

 

[GRJensen]

I'm leary of tools that I'm not positive are HSS ... high carbon steel (even the stuff they say is tempered) can make a mess of CBN grinding wheels. That's why I stick with steel from Thompson, Sorby, D-Way, etc.

If you have friable wheels on your grinder, the 'spark test' that John Lucas mentions in post #7 above is a good way to tell. The sparks look different on a grinder... The high carbon stuff has brighter sparks that fragment (think fireworks) while the HSS stuff is less bright (more orange than white) with less fragmenting.

 

[John K Jordan]

The sparks look different on a grinder... The high carbon stuff has brighter sparks that fragment (think fireworks) while the HSS stuff is less bright (more orange than white) with less fragmenting.

If you haven't, it might be interesting to try the spark test on a piece of old true, genuine wrought iron. It makes a long straight line then widens at the end a bit like a feather on an arrow. Very distinctive - no mistaking it for another type of iron.

True wrought iron is still sought out by blacksmiths due to it's working properties. When scrounging around old farm sites, I'd collect discarded metals, test them all with the spark test, and save the wrought iron in buckets. I had hoped to take up blacksmithing some day but now I'll prob give the collection to a school or a friend. I don't think you can buy it commercially any more.

JKJ

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

I've been looking at getting some BB tools. I'm a new turner, investing in many aspects of the craft. Getting a tool that is low end of the cost spectrum, while still being quality steel, even a step down, makes the most sense. I know that after I start to invest in better chisels, the ones I buy know can be re-ground into specialty tools. They may become unitaskers, but so what, I'll be extending their usefulness while keeping my initial costs down. I see that as a win/win.

Gregory

Those are what I started with. They worked fine I just had to sharpen them more often. The only complaint is I wish they gave you a 1/2” bowl gouge instead of 3/8”.

 

[Jamie Straw]

HSS sparks differently on a CBN wheel also.
I've picked up some "cheap" tools, especially early on, and yes they need to be sharpened often(er). Main thing to remember, though, is that the tempering is generally not as good. Nor does it usually go up very far from the tip of the tool. When I started wearing out the first D-Way gouge I bought, I was amazed -- tempering goes a long ways up the tool from the tip. That's one reason regrinding a worn fingernail to a bottom feeder is worth the hassle.

 

[John K Jordan]

On thing, hope it doesn’t sound too nit-picky:

Sometimes the term “tempering” and “hardening” are used casually but they are different. Hardening is the heat treating and quenching step that makes the tool hard. However, it can make the metal brittle and more likely to break under stress. Tempering is the second step that re-heats the steel to a lower temperature for a longer time and makes the steel tougher and less likely to shatter on impact. (safer!)

This looks like a useful overview for those interested in the heat treating steps for steel. The actual process is quite complex and the details are different for different types of steel.

What Is the Difference Between Hardening and Tempering of Metals? | J.F. Heat Treating Inc

Though both processes involve heating and cooling the metal, they serve distinct purposes and have unique effects on the material.

jfheattreatinginc.com

Most of the better tool makers such as Doug Thompson heat treat the entire tool so it has the same properties from the tip to the end. Some cheaper makers make low quality tools by just heat treating the tip or a few inches of the tip. Easy to test the difference with a file. I often sharpen both ends of Thompson tools for different purposes - two tools for the price of one!

JKJ

 

[Gregory Hickman]

I often sharpen both ends of Thompson tools for different purposes - two tools for the price of one!

I didn't know that the flutes on his tools go the entire length of the tool. This is brilliant if this is the case. 40/40 grind one end, swept back wing on the other kind of thing.

 

[R Henrickson]

I didn't know that the flutes on his tools go the entire length of the tool. This is brilliant if this is the case. 40/40 grind one end, swept back wing on the other kind of thing.

The flutes do not extend the full length. JKJ must be making something other than a gouge on the other end.

 

[Bill Blasic]

He (JKJ) said the tools were heat treated full length. Having worked with Doug for many years I have a lot of his tools and using the Hannes Tool, Vector Grind fixture and CBN wheels I will never wear one out. I would be surprised if I was taking more than 3 or 4 thousands off each time I sharpen. I'm of the school that says buy a good tool and don't mess with the cheap ones. I didn't start with cheap tools but did basically buy English steel for the first 5 years, quite a few of them and they were decent tools. I got my first Thompson 5/8 V in 2005, about the time I became President of the Presque Isle Woodturners in Erie, PA. Immediately I found the difference between the Thompson steel and what I had been using. When we would get a new member I would ask if they had good gouge and I would give them an English brand till they were gone. Doug Thompson was a very good woodturner and while getting the business going I asked him to demo at our club. Doug was going to demo a cowboy hat and he was going to sell his tools. He told me that the sales of the tools would be given to the club. I told Doug that he didn't want to do that as I had been extolling these tools and they will buy a lot. I told him just to donate the demo fee. He said "No I want the demo fee". Needless to say he donated over $1500 to our club. The cowboy hat he donated to the club and we sold chances on a drawing. I want that hat and put in $50. The last club member that walked in the door paid a dollar and guess what? He won the hat, he picked it up and walked over to me and handed me the hat and said "Thanks for being President". It has been said that that was the longest time that I did not say a word. That is also the last thing that Doug Thompson ever turned. He used only two tools to turn that hat, a 5/8 V and a 1/2 V and turned the hat complete without sharpening either tool. To this day if I'm on a ladder at the ten foot level I occasionally find wood curls from that hat. Doug is a great guy!

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

I didn't know that the flutes on his tools go the entire length of the tool. This is brilliant if this is the case. 40/40 grind one end, swept back wing on the other kind of thing.

The flute doesn’t go all the way. D-Way tools has double ended tools.

 

[John K Jordan]

The flutes do not extend the full length. JKJ must be making something other than a gouge on the other end.

Yes, on the back end of round shaft tools I might turn point tools, negative rake scrapers, small box scrapers, or small round skews. I use metal inserts in the handles with free space inside so I can put the end in use on the outside and bury the other end deep in the handle.

I do have one gouge with flutes on either end - bowl on one end, spindle gouge on the other. Used without a handle.

On big scraper stock with narrow tangs I like to turn NRS on both ends, different shapes. I use these held in the hand and without handles (force is never needed.)

These are my go-to NRS for bowls, platter, and such. Hate to waste steel in the tang. (Since I use these in the hand and never put them in handles I do put protectors on the end) BTW, the flat I grind at the wide end is perfect for removing tool marks from winged pieces, when "turning air". I never saw any ground like this before I started making them long ago)


I posted this picture recently, and this tool doesn't have anything ground on the end far yet, but it shows the idea of burying the one end of the tool deep inside the handle.

I've been making inserts and handles like this for more years than I can remember. Doug Thompson is now making handles like this, and maybe some others. My old foam-covered Monster tool handles with the set screw fasteners may be like this but I haven't checked - they are way too long for my use so they are just taking up space.

If you want wood handles like this, might have to make your own! (not difficult)

Oh, I just found this picture of various small NRS.
The first one is ground NRS on both ends, curved and straight - I use it a LOT.
The second one is a shallow fluted spindle gouge ground with a NRS edge on the fluted end and a flat NRS on the other. At the time I needed the small NRS more than I did the gouge! (Sure put Mike Stafford in a tizzy when he saw it - he'd said "I've been waiting for one of those for months and here you are grinding them into scrapers!)
I think the last one with the handle is an Ashley Isles someone gave me. Perfect for certain detail, especially in end grain.


I dislike the quick attach handle systems that grip the tool only at the very end and leave the long shaft in the air. Maybe OK for turning big stuff but for detailed work in particular, I prefer to "choke up" on the tool with a short extension. Gives me more control.

Hey, wouldn't life be boring if we all liked and did the same thing!!

JKJ

 

[robo hippy]

I would say that the quality of tools you buy depends on how much you are going to use them. I started with a set of "Artisan" tools from Craft Supplies. They worked, though I do not use any of them any more. If you intend to sell, then I use Thompson and D Way only in my shop. Other than that, I use the Big Ugly tool which is a scraper and my go to tool for all roughing. I knew I was going to be selling, and the V10 and M42 tools were not available way back then. I don't know if Doug makes any double ended tools. I think Oneway used to.

robo hippy

 

[Doug Freeman]

Starting with high value tools (those that do the job adequately at much lower cost) is a wise choice. Most of us dont know if our “turning adventure” will be a life long addiction or pass on through to the dumpster. Investing big $’s in something that could be a passing fancy can be a very expensive mistake. The people who made that mistake are not around to comment on it. I don’t recommend beginning motorcyclists spend $25k on a top line bike or beginner fly fishers buy a $2,000 rod and reel.

I still have and use my first tools, a set of HF hss Windsor tools (no longer available) and many different Benjamin’s Best gouges and scrapers. Being able to buy many tools of various types and sizes allowed me to experience how those tools worked or didn’t, and after a few years determine which tools I used the most and would benefit from better edge retention. Its only been 3 tool types - 5/8” shaft bowl gouge, 3/8” & 1/2” spindle gouges. The BB hss is good, testing 62-64 Rc. The scrapers work well and I’ve not found a need to spend big $’s on those. I just grind whatever end shape and type(flat top or nrs) I need.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Starting with high value tools (those that do the job adequately at much lower cost) is a wise choice. Most of us dont know if our “turning adventure” will be a life long addiction or pass on through to the dumpster. Investing big $’s in something that could be a passing fancy can be a very expensive mistake. The people who made that mistake are not around to comment on it. I don’t recommend beginning motorcyclists spend $25k on a top line bike or beginner fly fishers buy a $2,000 rod and reel.

I still have and use my first tools, a set of HF hss Windsor tools (no longer available) and many different Benjamin’s Best gouges and scrapers. Being able to buy many tools of various types and sizes allowed me to experience how those tools worked or didn’t, and after a few years determine which tools I used the most and would benefit from better edge retention. Its only been 3 tool types - 5/8” shaft bowl gouge, 3/8” & 1/2” spindle gouges. The BB hss is good, testing 62-64 Rc. The scrapers work well and I’ve not found a need to spend big $’s on those. I just grind whatever end shape and type(flat top or nrs) I need.

My first set was a cheap Wen set. My daily use gouges are now Sorby, Crown, Hurricane, and Thompson. I'll regrind some of these cheapos into specialty tools.

 

[John K Jordan]

My first set was a cheap Wen set. My daily use gouges are now Sorby, Crown, Hurricane, and Thompson. I'll regrind some of these cheapos into specialty tools.

My first tools were the Craftsman HSS set I bought from the local Sears store. I still use all of them today, some with special grinds now. I particularly like the diamond parting tool - have three of them now: when I mentioned in a demo how much I like them someone in the club brought and gave me his!

JKJ

 

[Tom Gall]

My first tools were the Craftsman HSS set I bought from the local Sears store. I still use all of them today, some with special grinds now. I particularly like the diamond parting tool - have three of them now: when I mentioned in a demo how much I like them someone in the club brought and gave me his!

JKJ

Those old Craftsman tools used some pretty good steel. Went through several until too short to use - repurposed the handles for some other small tools. Still have 3 parting tools - one with a special grind. Some of the others are now small negative rake scrapers.

 

[John K Jordan]

Went through several until too short to use

Sometimes tool short to sharpen!

I use the tormet and wolverine - for the wolverine I've gone almost exclusively to the mini platforms for certain tools.

Oneway Mini Platform Assembly

Check out the deal on Oneway Mini Platform Assembly at Packard Woodworks: The Woodturner's Source

www.packardwoodworks.com

I had been considering grinding down one of my larger wolverine platforms when I discovered this. I have two now.

JKJ

 

[Tom Gall]

Sometimes tool short to sharpen!

I use the tormet and wolverine - for the wolverine I've gone almost exclusively to the mini platforms for certain tools.

Oneway Mini Platform Assembly

Check out the deal on Oneway Mini Platform Assembly at Packard Woodworks: The Woodturner's Source

www.packardwoodworks.com

I had been considering grinding down one of my larger wolverine platforms when I discovered this. I have two now.

JKJ

"....too short to use" - not too short to sharpen. I'm talking about the ferrule hitting the tool rest "short". I agree about the platform - some day I might buy a short one for some scrapers, but I usually just freehand parting tools.

 

[John K Jordan]

some day I might buy a short one for some scrapers, but I usually just freehand parting tools.

I use the platform for scrapers, NRS, all skews, my special parting tool grind, my Wicked Point Tool, spindle roughing gouges, ... almost everything except bowl gouges (use the varigrind) and my spindle gouges (use the tormek with 1200 grit)

 

[Mike Novak]

Starting with high value tools (those that do the job adequately at much lower cost) is a wise choice.

I always have a hard time identifying “high value”. So much today is designed to be disposable, and often doesn’t do the job even once. You can’t tell by price either. You seldom get more than you pay for, but it’s easy to get less.

 

[John K Jordan]

I always have a hard time identifying “high value”. So much today is designed to be disposable, and often doesn’t do the job even once. You can’t tell by price either. You seldom get more than you pay for, but it’s easy to get less.

That's one reason I primarily go with Thompson tools. ANY kind of problem, Doug will make it right. But I've never had any kind of problem. The steel is wonderful.

 

[Michael Brown]

Chiming in late as usual. I started out using crown and handling sorby, and after my first scraper from Thompson, I have never left.
My micro envy is that a friend of mine who has been in cabinet and furniture making longer than I'm alive got back into turning because of me and didn't need the learning curve. He immediately saw how long the Thompson gouges cut and how little steel came off to get it back to razor, and he's not even bothering with budget. V10 is amazing. M42 is awesome and M2 is ok. High carbon is an exercise in futility after you've experienced premium HSS.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I always have a hard time identifying “high value”. So much today is designed to be disposable, and often doesn’t do the job even once. You can’t tell by price either. You seldom get more than you pay for, but it’s easy to get less.

As far as turning tools, I have used, and tested for hardness, Benjamin’s Best and Hurricane. Both tested in in the Rc 62-64 range (had a materials lab available at work), and held an edge like m2 should while turning.

Interesting how people think “disposable” is somehow of lesser capability. TVs are disposable because they dont use tubes anymore, refrigerators and freezers are disposable due to the high cost of repair, as is true of hand power tools. I still have some hand power tools from the 50’s & 60’s from my Dad. They do no better vs more recent disposable power tools for hobby use. A big component of power tools is duty cycle - the typical hobbiest doesnt use a tool as much in a life time as a professional will in a few years. Why pay for all of that extended life that will never be used?

My engineering design experience likely gives me a different view of all of this. Products are designed (and priced) for a given application - different applications have different requirements for reliability (life), accuracy, weight, etc. Knowing what is needed/expected for a given product helps guide the decision process vs “I want the best” which means a lot of capital ($’s) tied up sitting on a shelf not being used.

 

[Mike Novak]

@Doug Freeman , maybe disposable was a poor choice of word. I have had some disposable products that work surprisingly well. If it was designed and sold as disposable, it’s often ok.

Perhaps a better descriptor would be “cheap junk”. I hear lots of people put the word “Chinese “ in front of that, but it’s not limited to any one country. When I was growing up, it was Japanese. It’s way too common for companies to use inferior materials, minimum design specs and sloppy manufacturing to produce a product that doesn’t work at all or has an unreasonably short useful life.

 

[Neil S]

Most of the better tool makers such as Doug Thompson heat treat the entire tool so it has the same properties from the tip to the end. Easy to test the difference with a file. I often sharpen both ends of Thompson tools for different purposes - two tools for the price of one!

JKJ

I do the same and can confirm that both Thompson and D-Way tools are heat treated the full length of the tool.

I didn't know that the flutes on his tools go the entire length of the tool. This is brilliant if this is the case. 40/40 grind one end, swept back wing on the other kind of thing.

I have ground a second flute into the tang ends of both Thompson and D-Way gouges. The 2nd flute doesn't need to be very long as CBN wheels grind so little steel away compared to the old style sparky wheels.

Besides giving you the option of having two different bevel angles on the one bar, an additional benefit of doing this is that you can grind whatever other flute profile you fancy into the 2nd end... :~}

Thread 'Grinding short flutes to make new bowl gouges'

Apr 13, 2023

This thread is a companion to one that I have added to the main discussion forum. This one is how I went about it while the other one covers the background and the results of my efforts. That other thread in the main discussion forum is titled DIY bowl gouges and flutes.

Prior to now the method I used to adjust flute profiles was to use diamond burs in my Dremel, but I have recently adopted fellow forum member Hughie’s method of using a thin cut-off wheel on my angle grinder to begin making a flute to make a new bowl gouge.

Initially I fixed the gouge down and handheld the...

• Neil S
• Replies: 6
• Forum: Tutorials and Tips

•