CBN Wheels

[Thom Schuck]

Hello fellow Genius’s,
I am now ready to buy my first CBN grinding wheel. I know I can count on all of you to tell me what grit and make I should buy. Flat edge or round edge? I remember one that I think was Woodturners Wonders? But like everything these days I cant remember. I also would like to know what you good people think or know about Simon Hope Negative Rake Scrapers?. They look most excellent to me but I am still in the novice category. I have Doug Thompson, Cindy Drodza and plenty of Robert Sorby. I talked with one of Simons mates and I have a pal in England that can pick them up for me at the shop just down the lane from where is is staying. Might you be able to help me out here? Oh… I did buy three Hunter Carbide tools. WILD! They are just to much fun. If you remeber I got run over in my wheelchair by a drunk driver a month or so back. My doctors now say I can do light shop work. Tomorrow I turn!
Thank You Much for your help.
Thom Schuck
Portland, Oregon

 

[Darryn Achall]

If you do a search on this site for "CBN" you will find a lot of information and opinions. I feel that the best sharpening system depends on what type of tools and grinds you tend to use most. It also depends on your budget. D-Way tools displayed some amazing new CBN wheels at the Portland Symposium recently. You might check out their website. If you have done a little research and can tell the forum what wheels you are considering and why you feel they would work for you, there will be a lot of posters chiming in with their experiences and whether or not they think the proposed setup might work for you.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

check out their website

Nothing under CBN wheels except close out on 6 inch wheel . . .

 

[Darryn Achall]

Nothing under CBN wheels except close out on 6 inch wheel . . .

Premier series CBN Wheel

 

[Bill Alston]

I’m not using CBN yet but from what I’ve read 180g seems to be a popular choice. Possibly a bit fine for reshaping but a good compromise. I have read a few people are using 350g though which sounds quite fine but should leave a better finish straight from the tool? I’d be very interested to know what grits folks use when they have two CBN wheels mounted on their grinders.

Edit: This article may be of interest?

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html

 

[Brian Gustin]

I’d be very interested to know what grits folks use when they have two CBN wheels mounted on their grinders.

Had coarse (35 grit? beats me) Al Ox on left and 180 CBN on right for a while, but after new lathe, I'm working on rearranging shop and moved grinder to a new roll-around cabinet station I built, and got a new 350 CBN , so now I have 350 on the right and 180 on the left. Using the 180 grit I could still see "sawtooth" edges - sharp, yes, but not as keen.. since adding the 350 and grinder next to lathe, I find I sharpen more, and I am happy with the results I have been getting. The 180 does quite nicely for the odd bit of reshaping I may do every so often (sure, it does take some patience on my part!), so I don't see a need for a coarser grit.

 

[Bill Alston]

Thanks for that Brian. 😉

 

[Dave Landers]

I’d be very interested to know what grits folks use when they have two CBN wheels mounted on their grinders.

I have 2 grinders dedicated to sharpening. 4 wheels means that mostly I don't have to reset platforms. The wheels are:

• 220 grit with modified wolverine arm (holes at appropriate distances for bowl and spindle gouges, so I don't have to reset the arm)
• 180 grit with a 40º platform I use for negative rake scrapers and spindle roughing gouge
• 180 grit with radius corners and a flat side (woodturners wonders "4-in-1") - platform usually at 60º for bottom-bowl gouge (sometimes has a 22º platform for skews). Also use the corners free-hand for HSS hollowing tool tips
• 80 grit with square corners and flat side (woodturners wonders "mega square") - platform at 75º for scrapers and hollowing teardrops. Also use this for some shaping or to re-establish secondary bevels etc.

I like the bur I get on traditional scrapers from the 80g, and like the finer bur from the 180g for NRS.

I don't see a big difference in the 220g vs 180g, but as I have a 220 it makes most sense that it's used for gouges vs other things.

The 220 grit wheel is on the left side of that grinder, because I stand to the side to swing the gouge in the jig, and its more comfortable for me to stand on the left, with my right hand on the gouge handle.

Major tool shaping happens on the disk sander, as I don't currently have a grinder setup with "stone" wheels.

---

To @Thom Schuck 's original question:

My recommendation is 180 grit for a good general-purpose wheel.
If you sharpen HSS hollowing tips, the round edge is good (otherwise not too useful and makes the useable face of the wheel narrower).
If you sharpen things that need a flat grind (vs hollow-ground) having grit on a flat side is good.
So for one wheel I'd get a 180 with flat side - round corners for hollowing tips square otherwise.
I haven't looked recently, but when I bought mine Woodturners Wonders had good wheels at a fair price.

 

[Bill Alston]

Thanks for the input Dave, very helpful.

 

[Brian Brightwell]

I use a 2x72 belt grinder like the knife people use. It is a very useful and versatile tool. Belts come in many different grits and you can change them out it seconds. The platen plate provides a flat grind. Rubber contact wheel give a concave grind with different size wheels give different radiuses. My grinder has a 3 phase, 2 HP motor with a VFD for variable speed.

 

[Bill Alston]

Nice Belt Grinder Brian. 😉

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I use 80 and 360 grit CBNs. I got that as a recommendation somewhere.

 

[Bill Alston]

Kent, is the 80g just for reshaping tools or do you use them straight off the grinder? I’m guessing the 360g gives a nice fine edge?

 

[Tim Pollock]

I have the 180 & 350 from woodturners wonders. If I had another grinder I'd add the 80 as the 180 can be a bit slow if much reshaping has to be done.

 

[Darryn Achall]

I have the 180 & 350 from woodturners wonders. If I had another grinder I'd add the 80 as the 180 can be a bit slow if much reshaping has to be done.

Yep, I have a 180 and 600 grit. If reshaping is needed, I take the tool to work and grind on the rough grit wheels there.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Kent, is the 80g just for reshaping tools or do you use them straight off the grinder? I’m guessing the 360g gives a nice fine edge?

I use the 80 for reshaping, but I'll also use it to sharpen scrapers. That's because I'm lazy and don't want to move the grinding platform to the finer wheel. As for the 360, I think the only real advantage over a 180 is it removes less material. In theory, my gouges will last longer. There's a thread from about a year ago with good info regarding the different grit wheels and their performance on tools.

 

[Adrian Wilson]

I use a 2x72 belt grinder like the knife people use. It is a very useful and versatile tool. Belts come in many different grits and you can change them out it seconds. The platen plate provides a flat grind. Rubber contact wheel give a concave grind with different size wheels give different radiuses. My grinder has a 3 phase, 2 HP motor with a VFD for variable speed. View attachment 64371

I have a couple of flatbelt grinder/sanders, my main one is 1", but I plan to upsize to one like yours. I have regular grinders too, but belt grinders are excellent tools, and underutilized I think.

 

[robo hippy]

I have mostly D Way wheels, in part because I consider both Dave Schweitzer and Jimmy Allen to be friends. They were one of the first to have them. I think I have one from Woodturnerswonders too. I don't think there is much of a quality difference if any. For wheels, if you get one, get the 180 since it will do 90% of your sharpening. For a second wheel, I would say get the 600. It does provide a finer edge which helps with punky wood. Do get the 1 1/2 inch wide wheels rather than the 1 inch wheels. Mostly because I have never put a divot in my gouge wings with the wider wheels, but it was fairly common when I had the 1 inch wide wheels. Get the straight wheels. The radius edges are good for sharpening the small hollowing bits, but not as good for straight edges like skews or most of your gouges. I do prefer the 1 hp Rikon or Baldor grinders. The 1/2 hp grinders just don't have enough muscle for me. Pretty much everybody has CBN wheels for sale now.

robo hippy

 

[JeffSmith]

My grinder (no name slow-speed Woodcraft) has had the same two wheels - 80 and 180 grit D-Way wheels - since 2011. I recently replaced the 180. It’s used primarily for gouges, the 80 is used for reshaping and scrapers mostly.
One thing to keep in mind, particularly if you’re new to cbn, is that the new wheels remove steel at a rate that can be surprising. This initial ‘vigor’ slows as they are used and broken in. The other amazing thing is that, with a little care, how long they last. I was reminded of that when replacing the 180. Seems that the older 80 with a few miles on it cuts about the same as the new 180; I’d guess the old 180 was cutting about the same as a newer 220 or maybe 360. It’s going on another grinder.
Granted, I’m not a production turner, but as a retiree I do spend a fair amount of time at the lathe, and sharpen often. The other thing to keep in mind when looking at the cost of two new wheels comparing cbn to matrix wheels - when you are fully used to sharpening on cbn, you’re removing far less steel to refresh an edge - your tools also last an amazingly long time.
Overall, the investment pays off

 

[Adrian Wilson]

I have mostly D Way wheels, in part because I consider both Dave Schweitzer and Jimmy Allen to be friends. They were one of the first to have them. I think I have one from Woodturnerswonders too. I don't think there is much of a quality difference if any. For wheels, if you get one, get the 180 since it will do 90% of your sharpening. For a second wheel, I would say get the 600. It does provide a finer edge which helps with punky wood. Do get the 1 1/2 inch wide wheels rather than the 1 inch wheels. Mostly because I have never put a divot in my gouge wings with the wider wheels, but it was fairly common when I had the 1 inch wide wheels. Get the straight wheels. The radius edges are good for sharpening the small hollowing bits, but not as good for straight edges like skews or most of your gouges. I do prefer the 1 hp Rikon or Baldor grinders. The 1/2 hp grinders just don't have enough muscle for me. Pretty much everybody has CBN wheels for sale now.

robo hippy

Have a look at the description for the new D-Way wheels that are linked above by Darryn Achall, their premium wheels..... they suggest getting 120 and 220 now, instead of 80 and 180. New developments, new rules. They sure SOUND great. Here is the link again. https://d-waytools.com/premier-series-heavy-weight-cbn-wheel-8-x-1-1-2-with-5-8-arbor-hole/

 

[Bill Blasic]

The first CBN wheels I had ever seen were at one of the AAW Symposiums many years ago and were sold by a gentleman and his daughter from I believe Austria. I bought my 180 grit from them and that wheel is still today in the exact same shape it was the day I received it. I think Cindy Drozda sold these wheels after that. I use a white wheel for reshaping tools. The only steel my 180 grit CBN have seen are 10V and 15V Thompson Tools steel.

 

[Dave Hulett]

Woodturners Wonders 180g works great for me. That's all I need

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I would agree that 180 is good if you only have 1 CBN. As for the surface shape . . . There are advantages to square an rounded edges. The square edged wheels do allow side grinding to flatten (at least some do). However, that may not be as useful if you are only grinding turning tools. It is more useful if you sharpen both turning and general woodworking tools like plane blades and chisels. The rounded edges can be real useful when grinding some hollowing tools and other tools that have rounded edges (round scrapers maybe?) I have one of each. The square edge wheel is 80 grit and the round edge is 180. I do wish the square edge was a little finer; like 120.

The one thing I really like about mine are that they are 1 1/2" wide. This width is much more useful for some tools because of the extra surface area across the wheel.

By the way, I bought mine from Wood Turners Wonders. Good price. Good selection. They have worked well. I'm sure there are other vendors out there too. A little price shopping is alwasy worth it as long as the vendors are comparable in terms of customer service.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

Have a look at the description for the new D-Way wheels that are linked above by Darryn Achall, their premium wheels..... they suggest getting 120 and 220 now, instead of 80 and 180. New developments, new rules. They sure SOUND great. Here is the link again. https://d-waytools.com/premier-series-heavy-weight-cbn-wheel-8-x-1-1-2-with-5-8-arbor-hole/

I read all the threads and waited over a year. I just (finally) pulled the trigger for the recommended 220 grit by D-Way listed above. Expensive but I think I’ll be happy. $250.

 

[Steven Borruso]

Woodturners Wonders CBNs ... 180 grit mostly to shape ... 350 everyday sharpening/touchup .... Bucktool 3/4 HP grinder ... Wolverine jigs.

 

[John K Jordan]

I’m chiming in late but after several purchases and testing, I found what works best for me is:

On 8” half-speed grinders:
- a 60 grit CBN
- a 600 grit CBN

On a 10” Tormek
- a 1200 grit CBN (used dry)

With the 60 grit CBN I can extensively reshape HSS tools to suit me.
I use the 600 grit CBN I sharpen all skews, bowl gouges, NRS and other scrapers, card and hand scrapers as well as point tools and other special tools
I sharpen all my spindle gouges on the Tormek with a 1200 grit CBN. I also deburr all tools on the Tormek leather wheels.

All of my current CBN wheels have "square" corners and 1" of grit down the flat sides. This combination is invaluable for shaping and sharpening certain custom tools. Those wheels with the radiused edges are only useful for limited purposes, plus they waste a lot of the working width on the circumference of the wheel.

This is an old picture before I settled into my current system (and gave one bench grinder to a friend):


I built a thing from wood to allow me to use the Tormek gouge jig on one bench grinder if needed.
I have a spare Tormek I may set up for more flexibiity if I get some time.

I keep two conventional bench grinders with non-CBN wheels for grinding many non-HSS things, one in the turning shop and one in my little welding shop.

I use a belt/disk sander with a 1” belt and 6” disk to shape curved hand scrapers and sharpen axes and things. I use other belt/disk sanders only for wood.

My last sharpening device in the shop is not related to woodturning: it's a specialized knife sharpener that uses three 1x30" belts and an interesting method that puts razor sharp edges on any non-serrated edge. It's hard to believe how sharp an edge it can put on a knife.

JKJ

 

[Raif Harik]

It's funny, this topic has been covered several times in this forum, plenty of info on it, but we are all perfectly happy to share again
Heres my two cents and it fairly new info for me.
I stared way back with a 180 rounded and a 600 big square one, both from wood turners wonders, on recommendation of the owner. I've used them for several years and here's what I've found.
I never use the rounded part of the 180 and wish it were the big square kind.
I use the 180 for getting a bur on my scrapers and for very slowly and painfully shaping tools.
With the 600 I get my tools so wicked sharp. It's pretty awesome. But probably overkill. I noticed that it takes me much longer to touch up and edge on my 600 that others.
So I thought my 180 kinda sucks, and my 600 is kinda slow to use and it's been bugging me for long enough that I finally got some new wheels. Two big square ones. One at 80 and one at 350 and I found something quite interesting!
The 350 is much faster. And it takes much more off my tool. When I was learning to sharpen on a platform I had to make a lot of passes, trying to get it right. The fact that WW sold me a 600 actually saved me inches it tool! I really think this was a great advantage for learning. Maybe if you use some jig or you are already proficient at sharpening gouges on a platform or freehand there's no need. But for me it was a good experience, even if I didn't know it till now.
My 350 is fast, I gotta say the face of the metal isn't shiny smooth. I see streaks in it. I'm sure that's fine and perhaps it will "break in". Given that plenty of folks use the 180 I'm sure the 350 will be plenty good.
The 80 is great for shaping! I wonder if it's not a bit aggressive. I presume I'll get a decent bur on my scrapers.
In my perpetual dissatisfaction I would say maybe like 120 and 400 would be perfect, but I don't know if they make those and I should probably just shut up and enjoy my new wheels.

 

[Tim Dunbar]

i use a cheap slow speed grinder with a 180 D-Way wheel on both sides i have a vari-grind set up on one wheel for gouges and a robo-rest on the other wheel for scrapers, skews, parting tools, hollowing tool bits and spindle roughing gouges, they have seen a lot of use over the last 6 years still work as good as ever

 

[Alan Weinberg]

Got my 220 grit D-Way CBN wheel today. No wonder they require a 1 hp grinder—the wheel weighs 17 lbs.

 

[Michael Brown]

I will also chime in late in this thread... I decided on a 1.5hp industrial jet with 10" d-way 80 and 800 wheels... I'll never go back.

 

[John K Jordan]

In my perpetual dissatisfaction I would say maybe like 120 and 400 would be perfect, but I don't know if they make those and I should probably just shut up and enjoy my new wheels.

Ken told me once he could have any wheel or flat hone made with any grit I wanted, CBN, or diamond - he just had to order it and I had to wait. I ordered some special wheels and hones. I don't know if he can/will still do this.

BTW, for those who may not have heard, don't use diamond particle wheels on steel - the high speed can heat and dissolve the carbon from the diamond. Diamond is great, though, for low speed things like flat honing/lapping plates. I've used the flat diamond hones to sharpen a lot of things, even some ceramic llama shearing cutters they said were impossible to sharpen.

JKJ

 

[John Kananis]

I'm also late to the party but here's my setup: I fit everything nicely against the wall when not in use. When I'm working, I pop up the lower shelf for the 6 inch grinder and move it down to elbow height and move the cart out behind me.

On the 6 inch, there's a 36 grit aluminum oxide (with stock rest set at 90°) for shaping, and an 80 grit cbn with a Veritas rest set at 60° for my bottom bowl gouge and standard scrapers.

The rikon slow speed grinder has an 80 grit cbn on the left and a 600 grit on the right. I use 4 platforms for everything the little grinder isn't setup to do: I have a 17.5° setup for the fine wheel for my skews, a 20° platform for the coarse wheel (for things like the top side of nrs'), a 40° for the fine wheel which does bowl gouges, spindle gouges and the bottom of my negative rake scrapers. The last platform is set to whatever angle the others don't cover (for whatever other purpose).

The tormek is mainly used to maintain other cutting edges in the shop and to hollow grind chisels and plane irons. It is outfitted with a 400 grit cbn wheel.

Flat edges are finished on steel plates dressed with Norton's water based diamond paste in 45 micron (very aggressive), 15 micron and .25 micron. This paste can make short work of any cutting edge - it even eats pm-v11 almost as though it was soft steel.

 

[robo hippy]

Ken Rizza did sell WTW a while back. You may be able to contact the new owner. I looked up the site not long ago and they do not have an 800 number for the phone. Dave Schweitzer did have a 10 inch 60 grit CBN wheel on his grinder that he used for shaping his tools.

There is only one grinder that I know of that is suitable for diamond wheels, and that is the "Tradesman" from Cuttermaster. I believe his set up was designed for the carbide tools for CNC machines. It is variable speed. The Tormek and various clones are also safe for diamond wheels. Too much speed and the diamonds self destruct.

robo hippy

 

[Neil S]

BTW, for those who may not have heard, don't use diamond particle wheels on steel - the high speed can heat and dissolve the carbon from the diamond.

JKJ

I'm not sure if a diamond 'particle' wheel is the same as a resin matrix diamond wheel, and I know the advice in industry is to not use diamond on steels for that stated reason, but before CBN wheels became more available I had an 8" diamond resin matrix wheel that I used constantly as my main grinding wheel for sharpening for about five years on a full speed grinder with almost no measurable loss in wheel diameter over that time. The steel may have been dissolving some diamond but it didn't make a lot of difference to the performance of the wheel that I could detect. Very occasionally I dressed the wheel to expose fresh diamond to make it a bit more aggressive again, which is something that I wouldn't attempt with my sintered CBN wheels.

Perhaps an 8" wheel running at 2800rpm just doesn't generate enough heat for it to be a problem. Like CBN wheels it certainly generates very few sparks compared to traditional sparky wheel. Maybe a sintered diamond wheel that don't exfoliate any of its diamonds may be more problematic than my experience with the diamond resin matrix wheel, which I still have and will continue to use. Anyway, the price of CBN wheels have become more competitive price-wise nowadays so, unless you also have tungsten to sharpen, CBN is the way to go.

 

[robo hippy]

When I think of resin matrix wheels, I think of my first set of CBN wheels. They were a 3/16 thick "matrix" of some binder and CBN particles that were bonded to an aluminum hub. I think Woodcraft used to have some diamond matrix wheels prior to them getting CBN wheels. This was a looooong time ago. My CBN matrix wheels would need to be taken in and trued up once in a while. It wasn't the grinder which was a Baldor, which I still have. I do prefer the electroplated wheels much better!

robo hippy

 

[Neil S]

I think Woodcraft used to have some diamond matrix wheels prior to them getting CBN wheels. This was a looooong time ago.

Yes, that's the one, Reed

It's an 8" WoodRiver #120 wheels that I purchased from Woodraft back in 2010. They were still selling them then before they changed over to CBN.

The depth of the matrix on mine measured 6.95mm in early 2011 and when I measured it 5yrs later in early 2016 it was only down to 6.9mm after it had done a considerable amount of sharpening as my primary woodturning tool grinder.



Interestingly, I found the diamond embedded in the matrix gives an abrasive pattern that seems to be much finer than its nominal #120 and very similar to the grind pattern off my D-Way #360. The diamond matrix wheel was never as aggressive as my CBN wheels when they were new, but because fresh diamond is exposed on the face of the wheel as the matrix very slowly wears down its abrasiveness remains more constant.

I'm not putting a case here for a diamond matrix wheels over a sintered CBN wheels, if for no other reason that the diamond matrix wheels that I would use on an 8" bench grinder are no longer available, and because CBN wheels are so more readily available nowadays in a range of grit sizes. But I thought I should at least share my experience with diamond wheels, which runs somewhat counter to the common wisdom about them.

While on the topic I should mention that I do need to use diamond matrix and sintered wheels of various sorts for sharpening tungsten carbide. CBN has only two thirds the abrasive power of diamond on TC and if CBN is used it deteriorates very quickly.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

But the bullet and bought the 200 grit D-way CBN wheel. Damn thing weighs 17 pounds. Takes a few minutes to stop turning due to inertia.

 

[John Kananis]

I suppose I should have mentioned above, all 4 of those cbn wheels came from woodturnerswonders and weight is reasonable. Even on the large 10" wheel for the tormek, nowhere near 17 pounds.

 

[Michael Brown]

The d-way 10" wheels are somewhat lighter than my 8" super square and 4 way radius wheels from woodturners wonders. Then again 1.5hp takes about 4 seconds to come up to speed.

 

[robo hippy]

It has been so long that it is difficult to remember, and no, that was not yesterday..... I had an old no name blue grinder from Woodcraft many years ago, and my first CBN wheels took a long time to come up to speed, even with a hand push to get them started. Then I got a Baldor. I did pick up a 1 hp Rikon years ago, one of the first ones they were putting out. I had to grind about 1/8 inch off of one leg/foot to get it to sit level on some plywood. I picked up a second one a year or three later. I didn't have to grind anything off of the base to get it to sit flat. They and the Baldor grinders come up to speed in the same amount of time. The Rikon spins for a loooong time before the wheel comes to a stop. The Baldor comes to a much quicker stop. I still still will use the heel of what ever tool I am sharpening to stop the wheel on all of my grinders. The 1/2 hp Rikon just doesn't have enough horses for me, though they do work for many turners.

robo hippy