Can we talk about making money as woodturners?

[John Ames]

PREFACE: This thread is for the folks who sell their work (or are thinking about it). Most turners are hobbyists who do it for fun, creativity, personal achievement and many other very valid reasons. But how many of us actually sell and want to make a profit? (or at least have the hobby pay for itself?) By starting this topic, I don't want to offend anyone or be inappropriate in any way. I know money can be a weird topic. That said, I've been looking for this kind of discussion for years in various forums and also by talking to many other turners, but it seems to be very difficult to talk about. And it always ends up very vague. Can we talk specifics?

I realize almost no one makes their living as a woodturner. I've been lucky enough to sell a few hundred pieces over the years. I've sold mostly to individuals and I'd like to start doing some art shows. But I'd like to know what might be realistic based on the experiences of others in addition to myself.

I've sold bowls ranging in price from $25 to $1,000. I did a small show a couple years ago on a Saturday and after subtracting the entry fee, I sold 10 bowls and came home with about $1500. For me, that was worthwhile. Currently I sell 30-40 bowls a year (just through word of mouth and returning customers) and it's enough to pay for the hobby with maybe a little left over. I gross around $10k/year and a lot of that goes back into tools/sandpaper/shop upkeep, etc.

I might be crazy optimistic here, but at a larger art/craft show, in a large city, (I live in Los Angeles) would it be possible (or plausible) to take home $4,000 for a weekend? I would venture to guess I might be able to sell 20 bowls over a weekend art show at an average price of $200. Basic math suggests if someone participated in 4 shows per year that would be an extra $16k in gross sales for a year's worth of turning. Am I insane? All of a sudden the hobby becomes somewhat more profitable.

Would anyone else mind sharing the range of your selling prices?
Approximately how many pieces do you sell per year?
Do you base your pricing on an "hourly rate" basis, or is it based on something else?
How much money would you have to make to make a weekend art/craft show worth it to you?
How many art/craft shows would you be willing/able to do in a year?
Or is selling online really the best way to go?

I look forward to an open discussion and feel free to take it any direction. I truly think woodturning is an underrepresented art form and I'd love for the stature and respect of this art form to grow and become more appreciated. Ive seen some incredible work on this website!

 

[Sam Fleisher]

I had this post which might clarify my results for you. https://www.aawforum.org/community/...ell-bowls-at-craft-shows-markets.21257/page-2

My bowls are just utilitarian with some embellishment. The big earner for that scenic drive discussed in the post was an $85 dollar bowl. (I guess it was an art piece because it wouldn't hold water)

43 bowls total. average around $32.

 

[Richard Coers]

If the title of the event has craft in it, the odds of a big sales weekend goes down. I'd suggest that a bowl is not considered art by hardly any collectors and patrons. Many of the top turners stopped turning bowls decades ago. I thought the really great shows cost in the neighborhood of $1,500 for a booth. Maybe it's more now. I start pricing by the hour, and then add a fancy wood or embellishment charge. I'd say my best year of turning sales is in the neighborhood of $10,000. There was one year when I did $7,200 for one patron. That'll never happen again since I'm now 71 and don't have that kind of fire in my soul any longer. Now I do one holiday show a year and do that for spending money. I own all the tools and lathes I would ever need now. For the last few years I've done better selling my wood collection than the turnings themselves.

 

[Curt Fuller]

I think most of those that actually make a little money are those that have spent years at turning, earned the respect of other turners, and are able to teach a technique that other turners want to learn, or have developed a line of tools that they are able to have manufactured at a high enough quality and low enough cost to make a profit. Other than that there aren't a lot of wealthy turners or any artists for that matter.

 

[Jim McLain]

I did shows for several years and in 2003 I did four shows. My children were 6 and 9 at that time so it was a rough year but I was younger then. Back then I probably averaged $3,000 per show and my booth fees averaged $400. The best part about doing shows is you get to meet the customer. Shows are a lot of work and expense unless you can do them locally. In the summer of 2003 I did the New Mexico Arts and Craft Show which was one of my best shows but what changed my trajectory was the six offers from galleries to represent me. That fall I joined a gallery on Canyon Road in Santa Fe where I was represented until they closed in December of 2021. Since then I have moved down the road a block or two. I never was able to quit my day job but have had a great hobby.

 

[Darryl Fective]

I have done a local (around the corner from me) show 3 times. It's a single day, indoor event with a $25 booth fee, so it seemed like a no-brainer. The 2 pre-pandemic shows were great, with almost $2k in sales. The same show last year had less vendors and a different feel with a shift to more crafty than artsy stuff. I still made about $1200, but felt sort out of place. The combination of the 3 put my name out there. People know I'm here in the community, what I do, and that I'm someone to call for a unique gift. I've also had calls when people have trees/logs to get rid of.

I'm not sure I want to get into other art fairs that are further away, more costly, or a whole weekend. I'm sort of thinking about finding a gallery, but haven't gone further than just looking.

 

[Dave Landers]

My stuff falls in the range of $50 ~ $500, prices mostly determined by some vague notion of artistic and/or utilitarian value plus comparison with my previous sales and similar stuff Ive seen from others.
The gallery I'm in is averaging about 2 pieces / month. They're local, so I can drop in and see what's going on, chat with the staff, drop off new pieces, etc. So low effort on my part and they do all the work of sales, taxes, advertising, facilities, etc. Well worth the 50/50 commission split in my book.
Past years I've done one or two art/craft shows (didn't do any this year for various reasons). I consider them worth my time if I clear at least $1000/day. I find the art/craft show thing fun in small doses - meeting people who like wood stuff and/or who like my work. But it's a pain (pack, travel, unpack, setup, stand there, tear down, pack, travel home, unpack - a long day/weekend - and outdoors is more hassle than indoors). My psyche can only tolerate two of those a year (and only local so there's no overnight involved).
But my motivation is that I mainly make what I want, not what I think will sell or be profitable. Sales are good for my ego, and keeps the shelves in the house from getting too full. I'm happy with a year if I basically break even on the hobby (sell enough to buy tools/wood/supplies). If you're trying to make money on turned items to buy more than just tools (i.e. groceries), you probably need to focus on the sales and only make the most profitable thing(s) - plus probably filling your weekends 6-8 months/year with traveling to shows. Friends I've talked to that used to do the art/craft show "circuit" (not turners, but other things) said every week was a show, then rush home to make more items so there'd be enough inventory for the next weekend's show - they said it was very draining and took the joy out of the craft (but everyone's different, so this might be 'fun' for you).
(You might be able to make it selling only high-end art pieces but seems like that market is pretty slim - hence the "starving artist" label).
I don't sell online because for me personally the hassle outweighs the potential benefits (keeping up with accurate photos, descriptions, inventory; packing/shipping; social media/marketing; etc). But if that doesn't sound like 'hassle' to you, online could be good - certainly involves less investment in tables/popups/displays.
Seems like most "professional" turners (that is, those making a living at it) are doing much more than turning - tools, demos, teaching, etc.

 

[Eric Rush]

I've been turning less than three years, but I've sold a few things on Etsy. I don't like online selling because wood is tactile. I'd rather someone pick up a bowl, feel it, turn it around and look it over than buy based on photos and description and risk disappointment. (I got a one-star review on a small piece. Although size was clearly stated, the buyer commented, "I thought it would be bigger." He didn't return it, though.)
I am considering farmer's market/craft venues, a summertime thing where I live, but they sound like too much work, and my house isn't jammed full yet. Space in a gallery or store is probably what would suit me best, but 50%? A specialty wood store near me charges 20%. That will be my first query when I get off my butt and do something. Tourist-oriented shops and art galleries will be next.
Pricing? People tell me I don't charge enough, so I'm getting braver on pricing. I'm a slow, inefficient turner, so I don't base prices on time invested. I start with the formula for bowls Kent Weakley suggests: Height in inches X diameter X 2.5 with adjustments up based on appeal and better-than-average wood. I price small items such as toothpick holders and ring bowls based on how much to I need to cover free shipping and how much are people willing to part with on a whim.
As I gain confidence, based on feedback and improving skill, prices are going up. It's sort of like when I began selling campfire wood out of my driveway. People kept telling me they got more for their money at my "store" than at other places, made jokes about buying it all and reselling. I kept reducing the size of the stacks until such comments stopped.

 

[Dave Landers]

Here's my take on the 50% commission from a gallery (which is a pretty standard split). Sounds like a lot, but consider...
They are there 5 to 7 days a week, probably like 8 hours a day. The building is heated in the winter, and stuff doesn't blow off the tables when the wind picks up. They have staff - and a good gallery's staff will know you and your work and can talk intelligently about it. They deal with sales tax (and associated licensing), insurance, credit cards fees, checks. They handle advertising and sometimes special events. The gallery I'm in has live jazz and complementary wine for the town's monthly First Friday Art night - and I'm "featured artist" one or 2 months each year. I can't match that with weekend fairs. Plus I get to keep turning wood instead of standing behind a table.

But all that does require finding a decent gallery or shop that does the above and communicates well with their artists. Sometimes takes trial and error to find the right fit. I had my stuff in one place - they kept 40%, I thought that was good, but it wasn't. Poor communication, poor inventory control, cluttered sales space. I went in one day and all my bowls were just in a stack on a bottom shelf. Boo! But I learned a lot about what I needed from a gallery.

 

[John Ames]

Thank you for all the replies. It’s interesting to read the results you’ve had and your experiences.

I suspect there is an inherent advantage to living in a big city like Los Angeles in that there are a lot of shows to choose from. There are dozens of farmer’s markets within a 30 mile radius but I don’t think personally that’s my market. I’m more on the “artsy” side of the spectrum. Still, there are shows within a 100mile radius just about every weekend. And many in high dollar areas (Santa Monica, Calabasas, Beverly Hills, Venice, Malibu, etc…)

Because I turn free, junk wood no one else would touch, I basically price by the number of hours a piece takes. I try to pay myself $40-50 per hour. The starting pay at McDonald’s in my neighborhood is $18/hr so I feel ok about that.

Does anyone know how much a demonstrator charges? What’s the approximate range to do a demo? I assume famous folks like Batty, Tibbetts or Drozda can charge a real premium. I’m not sure anyone wants to see me do a demo, (even for free) but I’m curious.

 

[odie]

Thank you for all the replies. It’s interesting to read the results you’ve had and your experiences.

I suspect there is an inherent advantage to living in a big city like Los Angeles in that there are a lot of shows to choose from. There are dozens of farmer’s markets within a 30 mile radius but I don’t think personally that’s my market. I’m more on the “artsy” side of the spectrum. Still, there are shows within a 100mile radius just about every weekend. And many in high dollar areas (Santa Monica, Calabasas, Beverly Hills, Venice, Malibu, etc…)

Because I turn free, junk wood no one else would touch, I basically price by the number of hours a piece takes. I try to pay myself $40-50 per hour. The starting pay at McDonald’s in my neighborhood is $18/hr so I feel ok about that.

Does anyone know how much a demonstrator charges? What’s the approximate range to do a demo? I assume famous folks like Batty, Tibbetts or Drozda can charge a real premium. I’m not sure anyone wants to see me do a demo, (even for free) but I’m curious.

Do you have an online presence, or somewhere to see your work?

Link?

 

[Mike Novak]

My club does a couple shows a year. I’m going to set up for one this afternoon that runs Saturday and Sunday. It’s a craft show, and the booth makes $4,000-7,000 for the weekend. We are NOT in a touristy area. The turners split the entry fee, and use the club account to ring up sales. This makes it very approachable for members without having to invest in a lot of displays or worrying about sales taxes, etc. I mention this to show you can sell things at craft fairs, but the average piece sells for about $40-$50. Some $300 bowls get sold, but mostly it’s smaller items. Not many people around here will spend $300 on an impulse buy, and that’s the problem with craft or art shows. If you are at a show frequented by people on vacation you have a better chance of selling larger pieces.

I do know a couple woodturners who supplement their income with woodturning. They treat it like a job. Regular turning hours. Shows every weekend during “show season”. Focusing on efficiency and mass producing smaller items. They also do some amazing art pieces, but see these more as a way to lure people into the booth than as profitable sales.

Take these comments for what they are worth, considering that in my turning career I have almost made enough $ to pay for a sharpening setup. My goal now that I have my shop mostly set up is to make a few hundred a year to cover supplies and an occasional new tool.

 

[John Ames]

Do you have an online presence, or somewhere to see your work?

Link?

I don’t have any online presence at all. No facebook, my space, instantgram…. I honestly don’t know anything about them, never even looked at them. The fact that I got on this chat board is a feat for me!

I know online is the present and future but it isn’t in my comfort zone at all.

Here’s a couple pictures

 

[Rick Urban]

Wow!
Sounds like you have the production side of the job covered.
Might want to do the math to verify how much you need to produce to generate the revenue you expect and how much time that will take.
If you do it seriously you must recognize you will spend as much time as you spend turning doing other things. (admin/sales/logistics/advertising/marketing)
If you figure you have the hours available for all that, go for it.
Build a business plan...
Define your customer.
Identify your marketing channel(s) (hard to imagine an online presence not being part of that)
etc.
Get to work.
Good luck!

 

[John Ames]

Wow!
Sounds like you have the production side of the job covered.
Might want to do the math to verify how much you need to produce to generate the revenue you expect and how much time that will take.
If you do it seriously you must recognize you will spend as much time as you spend turning doing other things. (admin/sales/logistics/advertising/marketing)
If you figure you have the hours available for all that, go for it.
Build a business plan...
Define your customer.
Identify your marketing channel(s) (hard to imagine an online presence not being part of that)
etc.
Get to work.
Good luck!

This makes me wonder… what defines a “production turner?” I do produce a lot of bowls, over 75 a year I’d guess, but never thought of myself as a pro in any sense.

I don’t picture myself spending too much more time than I currently spend. I just figured I might add a few art/craft shows per year and wondered if $15k gross seemed like a reasonable goal?

I get “one never knows until they try” but a whole lot of people have tried before me so I’d thought I’d tap the collective experience here. Thanks to all for your thoughts. Keep them coming!

I also wonder if Batty, Drozda, Raffan, Ellsworth, et al actually sell/sold bowls? Or would they be solely commissioned for artwork by collectors/galleries/events?

I’m quite curious how the upper echelon of this wood turning world survives…

 

[Dave Landers]

Does anyone know how much a demonstrator charges? What’s the approximate range to do a demo? I assume famous folks like Batty, Tibbetts or Drozda can charge a real premium. I’m not sure anyone wants to see me do a demo, (even for free) but I’m curious.

If you want to give demonstrating a try, start with your local club. Most clubs have a set rate for member demonstrators - sometimes its 0 because you should be giving back, sometimes 0 plus dues reduction or gift card etc, sometimes up to around $200 - depends on the club. But that's the way to start - low(er) pressure and you can find out if you like it and/or are good at it. There's a unique skill set to be able to talk at the same time you turn and actually make sense and communicate.

 

[odie]

@John Ames

After having my bowls in art/crafts shows, art galleries and gift shops in the 90's, and early this century, I've been selling exclusively online for the past dozen years. Etsy is now my main outlet. From the start, I gradually increased my sales to over 100/year.....but since the downturn in the economy, I've been seeing less sales in the past couple years. Even though the economy is a major part of the problem, I do feel that since the sale of Etsy, and the subsequent investment mentality at the corporate level has influenced this downturn in Etsy's sales of handmade art.....It's no longer about highlighting the best works, but enticing as many participants of lesser skill levels to actively participate as possible. The search algorithm appears to bear this theory out. This is my opinion, and the reasons why can be speculative......but, it's a fact that my sales have peaked just prior to the covid outbreak, and have steadily gone downward since that time.

I'm beginning to think I should once again consider major juried art/crafts shows. It is my thought that only those who can compete among the best in their field should think about juried art shows.....otherwise, it's likely to be a waste of time. This is likely more so true now, than it would be during times of economic booms. There are no major art/crafts shows locally for me to participate in, so traveling to large cities, like Denver, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Coeur d'Alene, Spokane would be my best bets. Besides the booth fee, I also need to look at travel and lodging expenses to make it a profitable venture.

-o-

 

[Eric Maillard]

This makes me wonder… what defines a “production turner?” I do produce a lot of bowls, over 75 a year I’d guess, but never thought of myself as a pro in any sense.

I don’t picture myself spending too much more time than I currently spend. I just figured I might add a few art/craft shows per year and wondered if $15k gross seemed like a reasonable goal?

I get “one never knows until they try” but a whole lot of people have tried before me so I’d thought I’d tap the collective experience here. Thanks to all for your thoughts. Keep them coming!

I also wonder if Batty, Drozda, Raffan, Ellsworth, et al actually sell/sold bowls? Or would they be solely commissioned for artwork by collectors/galleries/events?

I’m quite curious how the upper echelon of this wood turning world survives…

Mike Mahoney said during a presentation at our club that Richard Raffan told him early on that the only way to make a living at woodturning is to go wholesale.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

I took several classes with Richard Raffin many years ago. He was very clear that he made his living selling coffee scoops and the like and that he would have starved selling "art". He could make one, sanded and finished, in under two minutes.
In another class Alan Lacer told us you needed to be able to turn out work that sold for a dollar a minute it took to make it-- $10 item, under 10 min; $10,000 item you can spend a few weeks on it. With inflation that's probably close to $2/minute now. Useful rule of thumb, I think.

I sell enough pieces to pay for my sandpaper, that's about it. Selling tops at the local fair I can beat the $1/minute mark if I focus; not if I stop and talk with the customers.

 

[Rick Urban]

This makes me wonder… what defines a “production turner?” I do produce a lot of bowls, over 75 a year I’d guess, but never thought of myself as a pro in any sense.

I don’t picture myself spending too much more time than I currently spend. I just figured I might add a few art/craft shows per year and wondered if $15k gross seemed like a reasonable goal?

I get “one never knows until they try” but a whole lot of people have tried before me so I’d thought I’d tap the collective experience here. Thanks to all for your thoughts. Keep them coming!

I also wonder if Batty, Drozda, Raffan, Ellsworth, et al actually sell/sold bowls? Or would they be solely commissioned for artwork by collectors/galleries/events?

I’m quite curious how the upper echelon of this wood turning world survives…

@John Ames I simply meant that production of the product you want to sell is one major aspect of a business. Whether or not you are a production turner is a completely different discussion.

 

[Neil S]

Based on my own experience of selling my work through galleries over the last 25 years there is much valuable advice that has been given here. My market is different down here, so not quite so relevant to most here on the forum, but the principles are the same.

I learned when I was also doing pottery part-time 50yrs ago that very few of use were make a good living from just their craft and that I was never going to be able to comfortably raise a family on that. I had to teaching to get by, as were most of the successful potters at the time. Income from exhibitions and gallery sales added jam to the bread and butter that came from teaching.

When my children became independent and I no longer had that financial responsibility (by which time I had established an independent income), I was able to return to my other craft of woodturning, this time for my enjoyment and satisfaction. Not so much as an occupation, but more of a preoccupation! As it worked out, it has returned financially to me much more that I have put into it, but never in itself enough to support me and my wife. I would have to get into all the other stuff that turners have to get into to support themselves, which I have no wish to do, like marketing tools and teaching. I've done enough of that for one lifetime!

On the commissions to galleries, they earn every penny of that, IMO. I don't wish to be directly selling my work at markets and such, and don't begrudge the galleries getting what they get for what they do.

 

[Donna Banfield]

I just finished day 1 of a 3-day fine art show in Massachusetts. Link here: Paradise City Fine Arts I had zero sales today. But I accept that, because my work is not an impulse purchase, and most of my buyers need to see my work and seriously consider it before making that decision. I started in 2002 as a utilitarian bowl turner, but in a very few short years found the artistic side more the path my journey would take. I knew that making that choice would mean days where I would not sell a thing. My work sells in the low to mid 4-figure range, so making only 2 or 3 sales is a good show.

If you're looking to earn an income (note, I said earn an income, not make a living) at woodturning, you'll need to make some decisions on where your focus will be. If it will be utilitarian pieces, you will have a lot of competition, no matter where you set up a booth or stall. That's where learning how to produce quality work, as quickly as possible means the difference in earning an income, and barely covering the cost of your wood, tools, consumables like sandpaper and finish, and the booth fees. And meeting just those is not earning an income. Turners like Mike Mahoney and Glenn Lucas learned how to spend exactly just enough time making a bowl, and do it very well, and move on to the next one. So, for example (and note I am not a production turner) Glenn Lucas knows exactly down to the minute he can spend turning a bowl, and not to go over that time. Because if he does, he's just lost money. That is the skill that production turners must learn to be successful.

Trying to sell both art and utilitarian work in the same booth/venue will not work. People coming into your booth will be attracted to the art, see higher prices, and conclude they cannot afford your work - not even your salad bowls. Art collectors who look at your work, and see you trying to sell salad bowls, pens and bottle stoppers, will not take you seriously as a maker of fine art. Don't ask me how I know/learned that lesson the hard way.

The wood art side is entirely different. You need to find a niche, that isn't anything close to what others are making. Something that most have never seen before. And be able to speak intelligently about not just how you make, but WHY you make. Collectors are buying a piece of you, and the story you've created, not just the object you created. And if you're really good, those collectors will continue to buy from you. And that takes a lot of time and investment.

And then demonstrating... Start with your local clubs. And move up from there. Spend time watching other demonstrators - the good ones - to learn what they do, and how they do it. Turners like Cindy Drozda, Nick Agar, Stuart Batty, Rebecca DeGroot, Trent Bosch to name just a few, are all very skilled turners, but also VERY good at teaching and entertaining. They can turn, and keep the banter up, and engage with the audience in a way that makes any demo they do, a show. They connect with their audience.

I hope that this helps.

 

[John Ames]

I just finished day 1 of a 3-day fine art show in Massachusetts. Link here: Paradise City Fine Arts I had zero sales today. But I accept that, because my work is not an impulse purchase, and most of my buyers need to see my work and seriously consider it before making that decision. I started in 2002 as a utilitarian bowl turner, but in a very few short years found the artistic side more the path my journey would take. I knew that making that choice would mean days where I would not sell a thing. My work sells in the low to mid 4-figure range, so making only 2 or 3 sales is a good show.

If you're looking to earn an income (note, I said earn an income, not make a living) at woodturning, you'll need to make some decisions on where your focus will be. If it will be utilitarian pieces, you will have a lot of competition, no matter where you set up a booth or stall. That's where learning how to produce quality work, as quickly as possible means the difference in earning an income, and barely covering the cost of your wood, tools, consumables like sandpaper and finish, and the booth fees. And meeting just those is not earning an income. Turners like Mike Mahoney and Glenn Lucas learned how to spend exactly just enough time making a bowl, and do it very well, and move on to the next one. So, for example (and note I am not a production turner) Glenn Lucas knows exactly down to the minute he can spend turning a bowl, and not to go over that time. Because if he does, he's just lost money. That is the skill that production turners must learn to be successful.

Trying to sell both art and utilitarian work in the same booth/venue will not work. People coming into your booth will be attracted to the art, see higher prices, and conclude they cannot afford your work - not even your salad bowls. Art collectors who look at your work, and see you trying to sell salad bowls, pens and bottle stoppers, will not take you seriously as a maker of fine art. Don't ask me how I know/learned that lesson the hard way.

The wood art side is entirely different. You need to find a niche, that isn't anything close to what others are making. Something that most have never seen before. And be able to speak intelligently about not just how you make, but WHY you make. Collectors are buying a piece of you, and the story you've created, not just the object you created. And if you're really good, those collectors will continue to buy from you. And that takes a lot of time and investment.

And then demonstrating... Start with your local clubs. And move up from there. Spend time watching other demonstrators - the good ones - to learn what they do, and how they do it. Turners like Cindy Drozda, Nick Agar, Stuart Batty, Rebecca DeGroot, Trent Bosch to name just a few, are all very skilled turners, but also VERY good at teaching and entertaining. They can turn, and keep the banter up, and engage with the audience in a way that makes any demo they do, a show. They connect with their audience.

I hope that his helps.

Donna - This exactly what kind of info I was looking for. Thank you for taking the time to share your expertise!

 

[Jim McLain]

This makes me wonder… what defines a “production turner?” I do produce a lot of bowls, over 75 a year I’d guess, but never thought of myself as a pro in any sense.

I don’t picture myself spending too much more time than I currently spend. I just figured I might add a few art/craft shows per year and wondered if $15k gross seemed like a reasonable goal?

I get “one never knows until they try” but a whole lot of people have tried before me so I’d thought I’d tap the collective experience here. Thanks to all for your thoughts. Keep them coming!

I also wonder if Batty, Drozda, Raffan, Ellsworth, et al actually sell/sold bowls? Or would they be solely commissioned for artwork by collectors/galleries/events?

I’m quite curious how the upper echelon of this wood turning world survives…

John - You have got some great feedback here. I think the $15,000 gross sales seems like an obtainable goal.

 

[hughie]

I think most of those that actually make a little money are those that have spent years at turning, earned the respect of other turners, and are able to teach a technique that other turners want to learn, or have developed a line of tools that they are able to have manufactured at a high enough quality and low enough cost to make a profit. Other than that there aren't a lot of wealthy turners or any artists for that matter.

That's pretty much the way it is for me. If I compared the US market to where I am, I would have to say there is little to no market. I sell a couple per year, not for the want of trying. Although of late I haven't done much turning due to other events, family etc around me. But over all this hobby has largely paid its way for me, I never set to make my fortune, so its been good for me.

 

[odie]

I never set to make my fortune, so its been good for me.

That's the way I see it now. In the beginning, I had visions of making a living, but over time, I've learned there is a higher calling to produce works I can take more pride in than a production turner may have. That's the key to living life to the fullest, because when making money overrides that motivation, it becomes a "job".....rather than something that feeds your inner spirit......

-o-

 

[Rick Urban]

I just finished day 1 of a 3-day fine art show in Massachusetts. Link here: Paradise City Fine Arts I had zero sales today. But I accept that, because my work is not an impulse purchase, and most of my buyers need to see my work and seriously consider it before making that decision. I started in 2002 as a utilitarian bowl turner, but in a very few short years found the artistic side more the path my journey would take. I knew that making that choice would mean days where I would not sell a thing. My work sells in the low to mid 4-figure range, so making only 2 or 3 sales is a good show.

If you're looking to earn an income (note, I said earn an income, not make a living) at woodturning, you'll need to make some decisions on where your focus will be. If it will be utilitarian pieces, you will have a lot of competition, no matter where you set up a booth or stall. That's where learning how to produce quality work, as quickly as possible means the difference in earning an income, and barely covering the cost of your wood, tools, consumables like sandpaper and finish, and the booth fees. And meeting just those is not earning an income. Turners like Mike Mahoney and Glenn Lucas learned how to spend exactly just enough time making a bowl, and do it very well, and move on to the next one. So, for example (and note I am not a production turner) Glenn Lucas knows exactly down to the minute he can spend turning a bowl, and not to go over that time. Because if he does, he's just lost money. That is the skill that production turners must learn to be successful.

Trying to sell both art and utilitarian work in the same booth/venue will not work. People coming into your booth will be attracted to the art, see higher prices, and conclude they cannot afford your work - not even your salad bowls. Art collectors who look at your work, and see you trying to sell salad bowls, pens and bottle stoppers, will not take you seriously as a maker of fine art. Don't ask me how I know/learned that lesson the hard way.

The wood art side is entirely different. You need to find a niche, that isn't anything close to what others are making. Something that most have never seen before. And be able to speak intelligently about not just how you make, but WHY you make. Collectors are buying a piece of you, and the story you've created, not just the object you created. And if you're really good, those collectors will continue to buy from you. And that takes a lot of time and investment.

And then demonstrating... Start with your local clubs. And move up from there. Spend time watching other demonstrators - the good ones - to learn what they do, and how they do it. Turners like Cindy Drozda, Nick Agar, Stuart Batty, Rebecca DeGroot, Trent Bosch to name just a few, are all very skilled turners, but also VERY good at teaching and entertaining. They can turn, and keep the banter up, and engage with the audience in a way that makes any demo they do, a show. They connect with their audience.

I hope that this helps.

@Donna Banfield You have really added value to this thread with your post. It offers something to think about even before someone starts thinking about selling their work.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Two worlds- turning and selling. We all know how to turn.

 

[Rick Urban]

One final thought...

The easiest way to make $1 million as a woodturner is to start with $2 million.

 

[Richard Coers]

The wood art side is entirely different. You need to find a niche, that isn't anything close to what others are making. Something that most have never seen before. And be able to speak intelligently about not just how you make, but WHY you make. Collectors are buying a piece of you, and the story you've created, not just the object you created. And if you're really good, those collectors will continue to buy from you. And that takes a lot of time and investment.

The niche comment appears in every discussion about making money with woodturning. I always think about two things; the line in the bible verse, "and there is no new thing under the sun" then I think about the millions of people who put a piece of wood on a lathe for centuries and should try to create a niche. That's a lot of niches!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mike Novak]

@Donna Banfield , if I was not tied up at the Deerfield holiday sampler in Springfield this weekend I would have driven an hour to Marlboro just to see your work tomorrow! I may never be at your level, but it’s inspiring to see what can be done by a true master.

 

[odie]

The niche comment appears in every discussion about making money with woodturning. I always think about two things; the line in the bible verse, "and there is no new thing under the sun" then I think about the millions of people who put a piece of wood on a lathe for centuries and should try to create a niche. That's a lot of niches!!!!!!!!!!

You know, Richard.......I can think of quite a few turners, many of whom are right here posting to these forums......those who've carved out their own niche. All it takes is some creative thinking, and from that point, developing a refined result. There is an infinite number of ways to accomplish this, so it's not limited to anything but one's own imagination!

-o-

 

[Donna Banfield]

Update - Day 2. I sold two higher end pieces to the same couple. They were in my booth early in the morning, and came back (yes, there are B-backs who actually come back), and while I was wrapping and boxing the piece they returned to the booth for, another piece caught the wife's eye. It's all about the story, which sold that piece. It was an 18.5 diameter ash with remarkable figure. The log base was over 6 feet in diameter. There was a photo Dave took of me standing at the butt end, where the slab was cut. That photo, and the story helped sell the piece.

 

[John Ames]

“Update - Day 2. I sold two higher end pieces to the same couple.”

Absolutely love to hear this! Every time a high end woodturner sells an exquisite piece (or TWO!), it raises all of our ships in the sea.

 

[Jeff Jackson]

What's the difference between a woodturner and a pepperoni pizza?

The pizza can feed a family of three...

 

[robo hippy]

Oh, the joys of turning and selling..... If you look at the 'professional' turners and demonstrators, they all do wholesale, retail, have videos though most go to You Tube now, and they all have a tool line. For shows, I have things from $5 to $300 at the top end. As I said in the earlier post similar to this, I don't do 'artsy'. I will sell about the same $ amount of small individual sized bowls as I do larger family sized bowls. I never found the food/wine and arts/crafts shows to be good since most were there for the food and entertainment. Dedicated arts and crafts shows were better sales wise. I liked talking to my customers, and you don't get an appreciation as to how much difference the 'feel' of the piece can make to the buyer until you see it in action, the way they pick up certain pieces and fondle them. One reason to do local shows is for wood sources. I always seemed to run into people who were having a tree taken down, and when they ask 'where do you get your wood' tell them about FOG (found on ground) wood.

I have heard that You Tube won't monetize your videos unless you have over 1 million views. That kind of puts a damper on the small people...

robo hippy

 

[Steven Forrest]

There are some very insightful replies here - Donna Banfield is always a source of enlightenment.

You have probably gleaned by now, no one right way. The bigger question is, what is your goal?

I started selling a few to friends a few years ago. Very underpriced. Conversations with my local mentor Jerry Kermode, and some other fine local professionals (Hugh Buttrum, Kalia Kliban, Don Pettit) convinced me that I needed to not undercut professionals. My brother ran a bicycle shop for years, and his very relevant advice was to see what comparables were going for, and set my price accordingly. I got into a gallery in a nice town near Napa, but that wasn't a very satisfactory experience. The owner didn't stay in touch, didn't provide feedback, never put anything online about his new artist. I sold a few pieces, but it wasn't very positive, and I pulled out. I think a good gallery could be a positive place to be, and certainly they would earn their take. But between being slow, and enjoying talking to customers, the gallery model wasn't the best choice for me. I do have a few pieces in the local art center store, and one place in the bigger city, but that's mostly just to keep myself visible. I'm not riding them hard.

Next I tried a couple of local Maker/Crafts Fairs. Covered my costs and then some, enjoyed contact with customers, but it was an awful lot of work and hassle, and that was for local shows. Plus - wind, rain, heat, careless customers, and overall lower quality merchandise - my work was the outlier. I would think having to add travel costs into something like that would make it well nigh unpleasant.

Finally found what works for me. We have a big county wide open studio twice a year (two weekends for each, one late spring, one fall). Well established, well run, well publicized, well attended, and juried. It takes about 10 hours of volunteer time, which is fine with me. The quality of the local artists, by and large, is outstanding. My work is fully up to standard. I can set it up and essentially leave it up for the two weekends, and I don't have to pack/unpack and shlep it around both morning and night. I get to talk with people at length. I am my own best salesman, I'm relaxed, I don't worry at all about making the sale. Nobody feels pressured. We provide good homemade cookies. I have had good numbers attend, and have sold well, both by % of attendees who have bought something, and by % of works available that have sold. I've done it 3 times now and am netting on average about $5k per event. Plus - commissions. Plus some folks have asked for lessons.

I tried coming up with a "formula" for pricing, but couldn't. I have items for each price "tier." Pieces are priced roughly equivalent to comparable items. I try to avoid glaring discrepancies, but it's all by feel, not by science. I seem to have found a sweet spot - not too low, not too high. I have some little things - tops, hedgehogs - that are virtually loss leaders. Unlike what Donna spoke about, I seem to be doing alright with a mix of both functional and non-functional work. But nothing just a cheap tchotchke. I make my little stuff to the same level of quality as my big stuff. I do bowls, vessels, platters, boxes, and miscellaneous. I do small, medium, and large. I've sold some expensive, useless things that will sit on someone's shelf, and small useful things that will hold jewelry, and everything in between. I've sold some of everything - and at times, sold out of some things. Jerry Kermode used to say you get paid three times, and it's really true. You get to make the stuff, which is the most fun you can have. You get paid for the stuff, which is no mean feat, and I don't take it lightly. It's not easy to get someone to pry open their wallet. And you get to hear and see their pleasure in your work, which is, in some ways, the biggest validation of all.

I'm not a fast turner or a production turner. Any pro who watched me would turn away and shake their head and sigh. And I live in a ridiculously expensive area, so the prices here are way inflated over other parts of the country, judging by reading comments in this and other threads. No way in hell I would ever think about trying to live a middle class life doing this. I am in awe of those people who have made their way - more power to them, and you can see from the comments above what it takes. I'm retired, I don't have to do this - but I'm not undercutting anybody who is. My hobby is more than paying for itself, and it's more than just a hobby to me.

So going back to the beginning - how you answer your questions depends on what your goals are, in terms of money in, money out, time in, time out, personal interaction, how you spend that time, etc. To answer your questions directly: My prices range from $15 to $500 (mostly between $120 and $350, with exceptions); across the two events/4 weekends, I sold on the order of 100 items of all sizes/prices; pricing is based on gut/research/market comparables/feel; If I netted less than $1k after a crafts fair, I would have screamed; two a year (4 weekends total) suits me fine - I'm making as much as I care to, I work hard to get ready and then pull them off, but I'm not constantly under the gun; and online sales did not look appealing to me, so I haven't pursued it - other folks here have made it work, so good on them. Whatever works for you is what's best. Sorry this is so long.

 

[Neil S]

. I'm retired, I don't have to do this - but I'm not undercutting anybody who is. My hobby is more than paying for itself, and it's more than just a hobby to me.

I think the point that Steven is making about not undercutting others is an important one, no matter where you sit on the pro-hobby spectrum.

Because I have not had to live off my craft for the last couple of decades I could have undercut other turners in my particular market. I've never felt that was a fair thing to do. Even if I don't formally belong to a guild I think it is still important that I conduct myself as if I were.

Anyway, in my experience, ours is not such a price sensitive market. Our buyers are already paying a premium for a pierce of handcrafted work that they could buy mass manufactured for its functionality at 1/10th the price at the supermarket. What appeals to them is more of a determinant of what they select and how much they will pay and not that this or that piece is a bit cheaper. However, if some turners are aggressively undercutting others it may not have the desired outcome for them individually, but the risk is that it can devalue how our work is perceived.

And, at the high end of our art and craft there are no guidelines, but by the time you get there you will have made and know your market well enough to set your prices.

 

[Brian Nowak-Thompson]

I've been slowly trying to transition from woodturning as a hobby to a source of income, and finding it requires a real shift in my focus from just making stuff to actually running a business. In any business, it is a matter of finding your niche or market and learning how to reach that market. If you sell art, your market outreach is different than if you sell utilitarian pieces, and you can do both but it requires splitting your time between the two. My biggest realization so far is that you have to work at it. Set up a routine for working on the business; take the time to find/pursue your target audience; take risks that might not pay off in order to learn/find your market; develop a product that actually sells and helps define your "brand". I don't think it is a matter of "Turn it and they will come". My biggest challenge is devoting the time to all those intangible tasks of developing a business and not get distracted by the more tangible things like turning a bowl, or ongoing house projects, or baking cookies. Just like developing turning skills, developing marketing skills to explore and find your market and then actually sell in that market is time-consuming work. You almost have to be just as enthusiastic about the business as you are about turning.

 

[hockenbery]

your market outreach is different than if you sell utilitarian pieces, and you can do both but it requires splitting your time between the two.

. Venues like the ACC show in Baltimore let you do both. It has 2 days of wholesale where you can negotiate orders etc for production work in the coming year. These relationships can be long lasting.
Then there are 3 days of retail sales where you sell to the public.

When we lived in Annapolis we and other friends hosted participants.
Several turners were relying on wholesale while their art market developed.
They could use this show to plan their year. Fill production orders and work on artistic pieces

Name 10 turners you think are at the top of the art market and quite a few will have been juried into this show