Can M2 HSS be bent?

[pencheff]

I'd like to make some small swan neck type scrapers for tiny hollowing jobs like ornaments and such. I've made a couple from hex wrenches but they don't keep an edge worth a darn. I've also used 1/4" steel rod that I heated up with a propane torch and bent to an angle, then "tempered" the business end. It holds an edge a bit better but I'd prefer the shaft to be square for stability on the tool rest.

So if I bought some 1/4" square tool bits of M2 HSS would I be able to bend them?

 

[Charlie Knighton]

making tools

check Robert Rosand out, you may talk to him or you may find his tools are less expensive than you can make them

http://www.rrosand.com/

i am still learning to make small things

 

[Richard Baker]

Might buy some HSS tool bits (made for metal turning), about $3 each, and some ordinary mild steel square bar stock. Bend the bar stock to suit, cut a slot in the end and secure the tool bit in the slot with CA (requires a close fit) or allen set screw. Made my single best hollowing tool this way, years ago. Prefer the set screw method, and others favor the other method. Either way, you have made yourself a $100 (give or take) tool for less than $10. If you need to shorten the tool bits (they are about 3" long) you can grind them in two. Have not tried the abrasive cutoff saw.

 

[Bill Turpin]

Yes

M2 can be bent. I buy pre-hardened M2 from www.wttools.com. It can be bent with propane, MAPP, or acetylene. It will bend around 1600°F; it takes something over 2000° to change the temper. Six inch by 1/4" round can be purchased for less than $2.00. Look for ground tool bits #2227-0020, #2227-0045, #2227-0055. You can not temper amd harden M2 at home. It takes heat around 2500° for over an hour to accomplish this.

Bill in WNC mountains
glad to see more rain in last two weeks than in last six months!

 

[Martin Braun]

Bill, Is that link correct? It takes me to some search portal that doesn't look ligit.

Thanks,
Martin

 

[57_T-Bird]

Ditto on the link problem.
However a Google search on the numbers found the page and item.

Another source is http:/www.use-enco.com
Looking at offerings from each, they do stock different sizes. So one or the other should have the sizes you might want.

And thanks for the tip on heating and bending.

T-Bird

 

[Ron Sardo]

Bill, Is that link correct? It takes me to some search portal that doesn't look ligit.

Thanks,
Martin

That's what happens when a domain name expires.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Might buy some HSS tool bits (made for metal turning), about $3 each, and some ordinary mild steel square bar stock. Bend the bar stock to suit, cut a slot in the end and secure the tool bit in the slot with CA (requires a close fit) or allen set screw.

Or just get some carbide cutters if you're going to scrape anyway. They're cheap, except if you're buying them as Hunter tool replacements. I got some from the machine shop up the way, made a few passes with the diamond file, and Robert became a relation.

 

[Bill Turpin]

Corrected link

Try this without the "s".
http://www.wttool.com

 

[john lucas]

Here are my ornament hollowing tools. The top one is a square shank with a #1 Hunter carbide cutter mounted at 45 degree tilt and offset. I find it better for hollowing boxes but not as good for ornaments. The thicker shank makes it excellent from reaching over the tool rest fairly far. I usually end up tilting it a little to get closer to 55 degree angle on the tool.
The 2nd from the top is my favorite for hollowing ornaments and small boxes. The shape of the shank was determined by tons of trial and error using paper cutouts to arrive at the best shape that would reach all parts of the ornament and still reduce the overhang kind of torque you get from an angled cutter. The cutter itself is a #1 Hunter tool mounted at a 35 degree angle. The cutting edge of the cutter is aligned with the left edge of the shank which reduces torque to almost nothing when you have the tool rest on the flatter portion of the tool. I have to hollow through a 1/2" hole with this tool but that's what I do anyway. I intend to make another out of slightly thicker steel to reduce the vibration when hanging far over the tool rest.
This is a modification and I think an improvement on the tool Willard Baxter used that was ground from HSS planer blades. His was of course solid HSS throughout. Mine has 3 advantages. One is the shape which reduces the torque. The second is the cutter never needs sharpening, and the 3rd is that I can angle it further to get super clean cuts simply by twisting the handle.
The 3rd from the top is the tool I've turned more than 100 ornaments with. It is 5/16 drill rod that has been hardened at the tip. I can hollow 2 or 3 ornaments before I have to sharpen. I found that grinding the tip down to 1/4" or less reduces the torque and hollows faster. It was my favorite tool until I built the flat Hunter tool.
The bottom one is a 3/16" HSS cutter silver soldered to a 5/16 cold roll shaft. I like this one the least. I think it is because the cutter is too long so you get more torque. This isn't bad at first but by the time you've hollowed 10 or so ornaments your hands are are really tired. There's only a 1/4" difference in the length of this tool vs the one above and there's a huge amount of diffence in the way they feel.

 

[Ken Grunke]

If you bend the shank so the handle is in line with the cutting edge, you won't feel any torque on the tool.
John, those are really nice looking tools

 

[john lucas]

ken That is basically what I did. I went back out to the shop and looked at my flat shanked tool. The cutting tip is actually aligned with the center of the tool handle. The problems that comes in with bent shanked tools is that you need to have the tool rest on the portion of the shank that sits in line with the handle.
This means that if you take a tool like the Bob Rosand tool and bend the shaft near the handle so the cutter is aligned on center, then it only has the reduced torque when the tool rest is near the handle. This is why tools like the John Jordan curved hollowing tools have a crescent shaped curve that doesn't go all the way back. You can support the tool on the straight part of the shank and still get around corners when hollowing. If you support the tool on the middle of the crescent you still get a lot of torque.
My flat tool was designed so that when you were not supported on the center line there was sufficient flat area to help you resist the torque or you had so little of the tool hanging over the tool rest that you can still handle it. The deeper you go the closer the cutter gets to the center line so it's more manageable.
I know I'm preaching to the chior because I've seen your posts many times so this info is mostly for the people out there who don't make their own tools or do a lot of hollowing and may not understand how bent tools work.

 

[hairfolicle2]

Greg, try a google search for Frank Penta. On his web site woodspriteturnings he has a downloadable article for making several small hollowing tools as well as a round skew and three point tool. HTH

 

[Ron Sardo]

Here are my ornament hollowing tools.

Now I see you you like the "Hunter" tools so much. The shafts you made are nothing like the ones he sells.

Nice Tools John, I think I have tool envy.

 

[john lucas]

Ron I like the ones he sells also. I simply use them in bigger tools. I love the #1 cutter the best. It works superbly well in the John Jordan 1/2" tools. It's great for all sorts of things. I use the #4 a lot on boxes.

 

[Rob Wallace]

What kind of carbide inserts are related to Hunter Tools?

Is there a particular industry designation (e.g. RCMT) for generic metalworking carbide inserts that would work (and would be sharp enough scrapers) to perform in the "Hunter Tool" mode?

I would certainly love to try to make some tools as neat as the ones John has shown us (...very nicely done, John!!), but at the 'nucleus' of this tool is the appropriate carbide insert.

I don't necessarily want to shell out $ 20+ a piece for a carbide insert if there are commercially available metalworking inserts already in use. Are the inserts used in Hunter tools manufactured specifically for this application? If I were to procure a standard 'RCMT' carbide insert (for example), would it be usable in the same application (as long as it were honed/sharpened properly)??

I have used my Munro Hollower without the upper 'shroud'/cut limiter, and it performs pretty well on its own, particularly when the wood tends to clog the Munro cutter with the limiter in place. The Munro cutters are HSS and not carbide.

Michael Mouse mentioned getting carbide inserts for this use....Do others have experience applying standard metalworking carbide inserts in woodturning applications? What has worked for you? Any specific recommendations?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks,

Rob

 

[john lucas]

Rob You can buy inserts that look just like the Hunter but I don't know if they have been polished on the top. This is what gives it the sharp cutting capability and allows the shaving to flow across it.
The biggest problem, for me at least is finding the correct screw to hold it in place. I don't understand the lingo well enough or don't have the right catalogs to show the screws with the cutter. The cutter's have a internal taper that needs to be matched by the screw. This holds the cutter more firmly in place (think Morse taper here). If you use a screw with the wrong taper you can crack the carbide cutter.
I know $20 for the cutter and $7 for the screw seems a little steep but in my opinion the cutters will last for years so I feel that it's worth it.
I'd love to be able to say yes, buy the cutters here,and the screws here, but so far I haven't found what matches. The prices I'm finding on what I think are correct are only about half what Mike charges so the savings aren't all that great and I'm unwilling to spend the money on something that might not be the same.

 

[Joe Greiner]

Haven't seen it mentioned, so here goes: To resist the torque produced by having the cutter offset from the shank centerline, I use a small vise-grip pliers clamped to the shank of the tool. I relocate it as needed for the project at hand. The shank of my Oland tool with 45-degree cutter is ordinary round bar; it gets beat up a little from the clamp, but so what? My Uncle Bob likes it too.

Joe

 

[john lucas]

No those aren't the right screws. The screws used with these cutters have a taper somewhat like a morse taper. They fit exactly in the inside taper for the cutter and lock it in place. The taper keeps the cutter from spinning.
If you exert too much force on the screws you mentioned the taper to the head could crack the cutter.
The problem I ran into when looking up the screws in the catalogs was that they list them for specific carbide cutters and not give a size to the taper and they have different part numbers for different cutters. The screws look the same and they have the same thread and torx sizes but with different part #s I was afraid to pay $3.60 each plus shipping.
I'm sure someone can answer this but for me I'll just order from Mike and know I have exactly what I need to do the job.

 

[john lucas]

Sorry Ron. I didn't mean to sound like I was taking you to task. The screws you show don't look at all like the ones that fit my Hunter cutters. They might fit another brand of cutter. I have only seen and used the Hunter cutters and have a few other carbide cutters for my metal lathe which also have similar tapered screws. The ones you show look more like a standard 82 degree taper which wouldn't work in my cutters.

 

[Ron Sardo]

As I said, the picture is wrong in the link.

 

[Ken Grunke]

Looks like just a generic image that they probably use for all screws
I doubt that phillips heads would be used in this type of application.

 

[Martin Braun]

One item that David Ellsworth mentioned in his video series, is that when one is doing faceplate hollow-form turning, the off-center cutting tip is an advantage when resuming the cut which sees the end grain. If the end grain is approached slightly above center, then as the cutting tip makes contact it will rotate down and without contact to the vessel if there is a catch. If the cutting tip is inline with the tool axis, he claims that catastrophe can result in this scenario.

My hollow forms to date have been spindle orientation, so I cannot comment on the validity of this based on my experience.