Bevel Support

[Jamie Straw]

This is a challenge: Define bevel support in one sentence, without the need for colons or semi-colons.

I've foud that students who come in after even 21-35 hours of instruction may not actually know what "bevel support" means, even though they've heard the term used repeatedly. I take pains to show and explain it in classes, and that helps, but I'm curious how you would define it in a concise sentence.

 

[hockenbery]

Tool on the toolrest and Bevel on the wood not cutting then keeping the bevel on the wood raise the handle and/or roll the tool to engage the cutting edge.
Tool is now cutting with bevel support.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Yes, Al, that's the process, but "what is bevel support?" is the question. I have a trial sentence, but very curious how others would phrase it.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Bevel support is when the region of your cutting tool adjacent to the sharp edge remains in contact with the wood while making a cut.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Bevel support on the wood surface is to the tool edge as your writing hand gliding on the writing surface is to your fingers with the pen.
-------------

Good luck with the cutting tool or the pen without their respective support.

 

[Jaramiah Severns]

I’ll take a stab. Bevel support is…

Using the bevel to support the cutting edge and smooth out the path of the tool as it traverses the surface of the wood.

 

[John Kananis]

Interesting that you would ask as my journey in turning has been based on this. (More than happy to expand of you'd like).

(My definition) Bevel support: when the turner has developed the skill to properly "aim" the bevel into the cut at the appropriate angle to make whatever shape he/she desires without using the wood to aid in support but instead as a guide to allow your tool to be supported by the inertia of the cut and not by the effort of the turner.

I'm eager to hear thoughts on the above.

 

[Don Stephan]

When making a shaving, the V formed by the end of the flute and the bevel is aimed into the oncoming wood. Bevel edge support is a force applied by the surface of the oncoming wood onto the bevel (at the cutting edge) that prevents the cutting edge from entering further into the wood.

 

[Ron Solfest]

Bevel support is wood immediately behind the cutting edge preventing that edge from skating backwards, or catching, while cutting shavings come off of the front of the sharp edge. My take...

 

[Tim Hunter]

Bevel support is cutting with zero clearance angle behind the cutting edge.

Tim

 

[John K Jordan]

There is often misunderstanding on what "rubbing the bevel" and "bevel support" actually mean and how they relate to cutting with a tool.
Those who have Darlow's book Fundamentals of Woodturning can find lots of photos and great technical diagrams with more than they might want to know.
I find this one instructive (stolen, er, borrowed from the book):



He has a series of these pictures showing the effect of different clearance angles, including zero, 2-deg, 12-deg, and 23-deg .
The one above shows how little of the bevel is in actually contact with the wood for the fine shavings made, peeling cut.
One picture, illustration 4.6 on page 34 shows and he writes that with zero clearance angle, "No shaving can be taken"
And later, "there must be a small clearance angle" for cutting to happen.

Practically, the type of grind makes a difference - hollow ground with an 8" wheel? flat ground with a belt or plate/disk?

(Darlow's writings are the best I've seen for explaining details of woodturning.
But people tell me he is too technical, whatever that means. I think they want to know the "how", and don't much care about the "why".)

During one of Chris Ramsey's cowboy hat demos, I took a close look and photographed the gouge he was using.
The actual functioning bevel was hard to see in the photo so I highlighted it in red. It apparently doesn't take much bevel to do the job!
He said the rest of the grind is just relief to keep the unused steel out of the way. (He sharpened this by hand, forming the grind then adding the narrow bevel in one pass.)
I watched him make cuts from up close and it was an eye-opener.
After things I heard from a other turners, this somewhat surprised me.
It was hard for me to try to duplicate that grind but the results were excellent and the tool was quite controllable.



Personally, when teaching I let the student discover the correct angles themselves (with verbal guidance).
I do this while turning the lathe by hand so there are not any sudden consequences from the experimenting. Once they "get it", it's all easy.
I always start with the skew. In dozens of these lessons there have been no catches.

JKJ

 

[Doug Freeman]

Bevel supported cut occurs when the area behind the cutting edge presses against the wood with a force equal to the downward force created by the edge cutting the wood.

Zero support is a scrape. The support force is less than the cut force when increasing depth of cut.

 

[hockenbery]

Yes, Al, that's the process, but "what is bevel support?" is the question. I have a trial sentence, but very curious how others would phrase it.

But floating the bevel through the cut is the process that defines bevel support. If you don’t let the tool keep cutting you don’t have bevel support any more.

We probably think of this from different perspectives.

 

[Vitor Cruz]

My understanding…. Bevel support is like a reference on the work piece, to control the depth of cut.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Bevel support is fictional, you're either cutting or rubbing you can't do both.

 

[robo hippy]

Hmm, going to have to ponder this a bit. I do a lot of scraping which is no bevel support at all, but tool rest support is essential. No clue who said it, but best quote ever was "The bevel should rub the wood, but the wood should not know it."

robo hippy

 

[Mike Obuchowski]

Define bevel support - In my opinion:
The part of the tool in contact with the wood that provides guidance and stabilization while the cut is being made.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

the wood that the tool bevel is resting on

 

[John Grace]

I’ll take a stab. Bevel support is…

Using the bevel to support the cutting edge and smooth out the path of the tool as it traverses the surface of the wood.

Like your version. I find riding the bevel to be a difficult action to describe. Kind of similar to teaching some to ride a bike only by talking to them. Of course we all know how to ride a bike...but effectively describing how to another person is inherently difficult.

 

[Bernie Kopfer]

Interesting that you would ask as my journey in turning has been based on this. (More than happy to expand of you'd like).

(My definition) Bevel support: when the turner has developed the skill to properly "aim" the bevel into the cut at the appropriate angle to make whatever shape he/she desires without using the wood to aid in support but instead as a guide to allow your tool to be supported by the inertia of the cut and not by the effort of the turner.

I'm eager to hear thoughts on the above.

After I pondered your definition it sorta began to make sense. But I’m quite sure it would require pages of explanation to a beginner.

 

[John Kananis]

After I pondered your definition it sorta began to make sense. But I’m quite sure it would require pages of explanation to a beginner.

Thank you...I think haha. I still consider myself a beginner and hope to improve my skills through practice and shared collaboration (such as this).

 

[Mike Novak]

For me, this comes back to ABC. Anchor bevel cut. Anchor the tool on the tool rest, float the bevel on the wood, lift the handle just until it starts to cut, no further. On a bevel supported cut, the tool stops cutting if you stop moving it across the wood.

Bevel supported cut uses the bevel on the wood to guide the cut.

 

[Dean Center]

Jamie, I know what you're encountering. My suspicion is that a lot of novice turners don't know what the "bevel" is, so jumping to "bevel support" leaves them far behind.

With our high school students, I borrow an idea from Alan Lacer and use a skew made from a 2X4, and a gouge made from a closet rod, to show them first the flute, the edge, and the bevel. When showing them A-B-then C, or bevel support, it's much easier for them to see and understand when it's a giant tool.

 

[Doug Freeman]

With our high school students, I borrow an idea from Alan Lacer and use a skew made from a 2X4, and a gouge made from a closet rod, to show them first the flute, the edge, and the bevel. When showing them A-B-then C, or bevel support, it's much easier for them to see and understand when it's a giant tool.

That’s a great visual help for the students. Perhaps a demo of what is NOT a bevel supported cut, maybe using a bowl gouge. Demonstrate a scraping cut, then the bevel rubbing/laying on the spinning surface (no cut), then slightly raising the handle to a thin shaving continuous cut, and then a deeper continuous cut producing a thicker shaving. The demonstrates how the bevel offsets or “supports” the force of the edge cutting into the wood, and how the handle is used to steer and control the edge for depth of cut. Show the resulting chips from each type of cut.

 

[Darryl Fective]

Using the face adjacent to the cutting edge to control both direction and depth of cut.

 

[John K Jordan]

With our high school students, I borrow an idea from Alan Lacer and use a skew made from a 2X4, and a gouge made from a closet rod, to show them first the flute, the edge, and the bevel. When showing them A-B-then C, or bevel support, it's much easier for them to see and understand when it's a giant tool.

That's what I've been using for years with students to help teach the skew. I didn't get this idea from Alan Lacer but if he thought of it too, good for him!

I don't have good pictures of my "wooden skew" but it's in this photo next to large diameter spindle on a mini lathe. (I don't turn on the lathe, just use it to teach the proper tool use and turn it by hand occasionally.)

I made mine from a 3" wide board. The large size of the "skew" and the spindle allow people to easily see the proper presentation, position, edge angle, and how to best move the skew for a planing cut . On the far end of the big spindle I have both shallow and deep "V" grooves to show the proper (and improper) way to use the long point, and what can go wrong in an instant if one simple rule isn't followed! (I should really get better photos of all this - it's been so useful.)



After playing with the giant skew for a few minutes, we move to the lathe and start with the real skew. I think showing the big wooden version first helps them to visualize better what to do to control the cut.

As I've mentioned before, I always start students with the skew, even if they've never seen a lathe before. In dozens of starts, I've never had one get a catch with the way I teach it. I'm not claiming it's the absolute best way, but it sure has worked!

After the skew, we move to the spindle gouge and work first on coves, then beads. Coves are the hardest for some since they requires several simultaneous coordinated moves. I haven't thought of making a big wooden spindle gouge but it's a great idea - I think I'll make one then make another big demo spindle with coves and beads.

After just a few spindle lessons, a lot of practice, and a project or two, we move to small bowls (so easy now!), lidded boxes, and more.

Her second spindle project to take home - learn the tool control needed for thin spindles first and everything else is easier!

Hollowing out her first lidded box. Note that I am constantly watching and suggesting but I never make a cut to "help".


A good time is had by all!

JKJ

 

[John Kananis]

That's quite impressive for a second spindle project. As much as I love the skew, thin stock like that wand is much more challenging to work with (for me).

 

[robo hippy]

I guess the engineer side of me would describe the "bevel support" as being a fulcrum point that allows you to control your cut.

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

Bevel support is fictional, you're either cutting or rubbing you can't do both.

I never use the term "rub the bevel" -- it leads to too much pressure on the bevel. "Ride the bevel" yes. Riding varying degrees (percentage) of the bevel. Students may ride more of the bevel (width) as a beginner, but as they gain confidence and skill (and RPM) they are encouraged to lessen the amount of bevel surface riding the wood and learn to take finer, more even cuts/passes. "Anchor to the tool rest, ride the bevel, cut."

 

[John K Jordan]

That's quite impressive for a second spindle project. As much as I love the skew, thin stock like that wand is much more challenging to work with (for me).

Well, I admit to first demonstrating one first, then teaching all of my thin spindle secrets! She looked through my tub of wands for inspiration and sketched out a design before rounding the blank. Didn't break one, even in practice. I admit to feeling heart-warming satisfaction watching such progress!

And thin spindles can be challenging to many - until they know how! (... hint: no steady rest used or needed ...)

Here's a closeup of her second wand: eastern red cedar with "distressed" texturing. Looks perfect to me.


Another example: This friend of the family since a kindergartner, now in college and among other things, guitarist and a drummer, wanted to make herself a pair of custom drum sticks. After a few spindle lessons, some guided practice, and a couple of "starter" projects she aced it on the first "try" - the two were nearly identical, good balance. I even got to hear her use them the first time on her drum kit - her mother was so proud!

From 1x1 Lignum Vitae blanks (quite hard wood, not exactly easy to turn!)


For some reason I haven't figured out yet, it seems to me that many young female humans tend to grasp woodturning techniques quicker than guys the same age. ???
Someone explain this!

This is a challenge: Define bevel support in one sentence, without the need for colons or semi-colons.

And back to OP Jamie's bevel support question, I'm certainly not up to the challenge. After giving it a lot of thought I'm not even sure a useful definition is possible in a one sentence, even without the phraseology limitations.

I don't even remember mentioning "bevel support" to a student.
All I know to do is to teach how to control the tools the way I've learned that works for me.

JKJ

 

[Jamie Straw]

Good stuff overall in this thread! There are so many variables when using bevel support, and I strive to translate the phrase into a concise definition that allows all of them. To me "Bevel support is the bevel supporting the cut by riding the wood just behind the cutting edge." This can be half the bevel, a tiny bit of it, or viturally any variation depending on the type of cut and the skill of the user. The follow-up lesson, of course, is showing how one can enter a cut with zero bevel support, and how bevel support is created immediately if you're successful. And what happens if you're not -- that's when the spinning wood takes control of the situation.... Thanks everyone.

 

[Jamie Straw]

For some reason I haven't figured out yet, it seems to me that many young female humans tend to grasp woodturning techniques quicker than guys the same age. ???
Someone explain this!


JKJ

I'm pretty sure it's related to the pace of brain development, concentration span and general approach to their world. One of the other instructors in our studio used to teach highschoolers turning, and his stories about the males in his class are pretty hilarious. I have, however, had a couple of 14- to 15-year olds (male) in the beginning, generallly adult, class who took to turning faster than most adults! One is/was a cello player, so mellow and intuitive.

 

[John Kananis]

Well, I admit to first demonstrating one first, then teaching all of my thin spindle secrets! She looked through my tub of wands for inspiration and sketched out a design before rounding the blank. Didn't break one, even in practice. I admit to feeling heart-warming satisfaction watching such progress!

And thin spindles can be challenging to many - until they know how! (... hint: no steady rest used or needed ...)

Here's a closeup of her second wand: eastern red cedar with "distressed" texturing. Looks perfect to me.
View attachment 69581

Another example: This friend of the family since a kindergartner, now in college and among other things, guitarist and a drummer, wanted to make herself a pair of custom drum sticks. After a few spindle lessons, some guided practice, and a couple of "starter" projects she aced it on the first "try" - the two were nearly identical, good balance. I even got to hear her use them the first time on her drum kit - her mother was so proud!

From 1x1 Lignum Vitae blanks (quite hard wood, not exactly easy to turn!)
View attachment 69579 View attachment 69580

For some reason I haven't figured out yet, it seems to me that many young female humans tend to grasp woodturning techniques quicker than guys the same age. ???
Someone explain this!



And back to OP Jamie's bevel support question, I'm certainly not up to the challenge. After giving it a lot of thought I'm not even sure a useful definition is possible in a one sentence, even without the phraseology limitations.

I don't even remember mentioning "bevel support" to a student.
All I know to do is to teach how to control the tools the way I've learned that works for me.

JKJ

Funny that you mention a steady rest (specific to wands)...I ordered the oneway version after doing a short run of 3/4" maple wands (I wanted to hulk-smash haha)... the 1 inch wands weren't bad so I went back up to that size and tried taking it down to size a little at a time and still wasn't fun but a little better. It's still in the box and I haven't thought about turning another wand since. Maybe I need to make my way to TN for a lesson lol.

 

[John K Jordan]

I'm pretty sure it's related to the pace of brain development, concentration span and general approach to their world. One of the other instructors in our studio used to teach highschoolers turning, and his stories about the males in his class are pretty hilarious. I have, however, had a couple of 14- to 15-year olds (male) in the beginning, generallly adult, class who took to turning faster than most adults! One is/was a cello player, so mellow and intuitive.

Might be right.

I thought it might have something to do with better hand/eye coordination, probably related to the development and awareness. And many musicians I know have excellent coordination - my middle son is also a cello player, turned a few things before concentrating on architecture school. He can design/draw anything he can imagine!

Other musicians I know have been "naturals" at various arts, sculpture, pottery. I think my mother may have been right when she told us learning to play music was as important to education as reading, writing, and math!

JKJ

 

[Dean Center]

For some reason I haven't figured out yet, it seems to me that many young female humans tend to grasp woodturning techniques quicker than guys the same age. ???
Someone explain this!
JKJ

Women as students listen and try to follow the instructions. Men as students have more ego involvement, don't want to be considered lesser than the teacher, have their own experiences and opinions that they are quite comfortable inserting into the process, are competitive, and so on. With younger learners, Jamie's observation that females will be more mature at a specific age than boys makes a lot of sense. Boys also have all that testosterone poisoning going on to screw up the process.

The amazing thing to me is that in 10 years of high school boys at the lathe, I've only had 2 who were so reckless it scared me. All the other students, of both genders (or is it now all genders?), have been cautious, and many needed goosing to be more bold.

 

[John K Jordan]

Women as students listen and try to follow the instructions

You may have hit the proverbial nail on the head. They would listen and do everything I said and ask if something was unclear!

The best student I was ever blessed with not only listened, she remembered EVERYTHING, every word, every method. Like a video recording. I remember telling her something once and she said, for clarification, "But in Feb of 20xx you said..."

Not only that, but once she had the basic concepts/skills down she kept quietly coming up with better ways to do some things I've since added to my repertoire! She now has her own lathe and makes lots of things, gives everything away, enhanced with woodburned drawings, textures, and color. She lives in another state now but I think the next time we visit I'll take all of my airbrush stuff to her - I think she could do magic with it!

JKJ

 

[Neil S]

I guess the engineer side of me would describe the "bevel support" as being a fulcrum point that allows you to control your cut.

Not that I do any teaching any more, but if I did my definition would be similar....

The point of contact between the bevel and the wood becomes a fulcrum around which the tool can be swung to control the depth of cut.

To commence a slicing cut you rub or ride on the bevel until the bevel clearance is just a bit more than 0° at which point the edge engages with the wood, then you glide on some part of the bevel behind the cutting edge to guide and support the cut. Push cuts are typically done like this and shear and peeling cuts use it to a greater or lesser extent.

It is also useful to make a distinction between scrapers that have had their burrs removed and those, like in the first diagram below, and those that retain their burrs or have a raised edge, like shown in the second diagram below, as those have a micro bevel that behaves in a similar way to slicing cuts...

​

 

[Dave Landers]

I don't typically try to define terms like "bevel support", I'd rather show and explain what's going on. The way I demo it is...

I start with a spindle - like a 3/4" or 1" cylinder. Run the lathe slow (50rpm). Apply the edge of a gouge or skew and make a spiral. It's not scary at slow speed, and it's pretty easy to see why the tool skates or runs back - the angle of the edge wants to make a spiral. It's also easy to see what would happen at higher speeds.
Then I show what it takes to make an entry cut - the edge has to be perpendicular to the spinning wood to make a ring rather than a spiral.
Once I have that ring, I show how the little bit of the wood I just cut makes a shelf, and will support the bevel from skating (if you keep the bevel in contact and let the shelf do it). It's just another "tool rest" - the lathe's tool rest resists the downward force from the spin, and the bevel-on-wood resists skating. So you can "open up" the gouge so it cuts better.
Another aspect of this is that the tool "wants" to cut in the direction the bevel is "pointing". So riding/gliding/floating whatever the bevel keeps you cutting in the right direction while it supports the tool.

That said, there are cuts where bevel support is "not a thing". For example a planing a cylinder with a skew - the bevel is parallel to the wood. The bevel is controlling the direction of the cut, but can't resist forces back along the lathe axis. But the shear angle of the edge makes these forces small, and easy to control with your body.

At least that's my take on all this.

 

[John K Jordan]

The way I demo it is...

Seems you do much like I do! Except I start by turning the lathe by hand until they can "feel" exactly what it takes to make good, continuous shavings. (I occasionally resurface the cylinder so they don't have a "bumpy" surface to deal with. This takes very little time, after which I turn on the lathe to it's slowest speed (and belt position). By that time they are well on their way to making great planing cuts so I inch the speed up until it's fast. I've never had one get a catch! Then move to the spindle gouge and start on coves.

One quick question. I don't quite understand "planing a cylinder with a skew - the bevel is parallel to the wood." When planing, isn't the skew edge and bevel at an angle to the long axis of the cylinder and grain of the wood? With a peeling cut, the sharpened edge and bevel is parallel to the long axis of the cylinder. Or have I misunderstood something.

JKJ

 

[John Kananis]

Hmm, I have even further thought on skew bevel contact during roughing. I feel that you 100% have bevel contact when roughing as it is EXACTLY the same (to me) mechanic when creating a cove with the skew - you simply aren't using the entire bevel (just as in making a cove). I could be wrong but this is my observation.