ASP 2060 HHS turning tools

[Richn]

I was reading about the ASP 2060 turning tools and I'm fascinated by the claim that they last about 4 times as long between sharpenings.

Any opinions? Are they worth the additional cost???

 

[John Brown]

Richn,
I have used ASP 2060 tools for several years. I don't know about the 4 times difference but they are definitely a lot better than M 2. I am well satisfied and will buy them again.
Jack

 

[Gordon Seto]

I think you also have to consider other characters other than wear resistance. I have a Hamlet 2060 skew; the tip has broke off once shortly after I got it. Don't know whether it got dropped during shipping and had a fracture or the steel lacks the toughness.

If you look at the link that Doug Thompson posted in the Glaser Gouges thread, in the chart CPM 15V looks like 6+ times more wear resistance than M-2, but it has less than ½ the toughness of M-2. The chart doesn't include 2030 nor 2060 though.

Gordon

 

[MichaelMouse]

I was reading about the ASP 2060 turning tools and I'm fasinated by the claim that they last about 4 times as long between sharpenings.

Me too. So fascinated that I got a couple or maybe three, if the one's not a 2030. Doesn't seem to be much difference between them and M2 to me, but I'm not a hard feed heat-maker in my turning. Might have to do with style, or it might have to do with steel, but I wouldn't pay the extra bucks expecting the claim to be true.

 

[waltben]

From my experience, 2060 lasts significantly longer than M2, but so does 2030 - just not quite as longer. I turn both dry and wet wood, usually pieces from 14" to 25" in diameter. Even though my grinders are next to my larger lathe, I hate having to continually turn around to sharpen and hone. I've tried M4, Kyro, Pro-PM, 2030 and 2060 and have settled on 2030 as meeting my needs best, with Pro-PM very close behind. If you don't hone, 2060 will probably be the better choice - but then there's the cost issue to consider.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Bought several 2060 (hamlet) tools and they have given very good service. They do like a quick hone to put a micro backbevel on the gouges, and my Lacer monster 1-3/8" 2030 skew merely gets honed with a diamond stick to keep it shaveable.

That said, I'll agree with Walt that 2060 is not worth the price increase over 2030. There is also a common misconception that 2030 equates with "A-10" steel with 2060 being the same as "V-15". They are most definately not the same. I also have a 7/8" Glaser A-10 gouge and its edge will outlast my 2060 tools every time.

 

[robo hippy]

I experimented with a number of different steels for my gouges. The main thing that I noticed was that the M2 would take a better edge than the other "lasts 4 times longer" gouges. However the fresh off the grinder edge lasted about the same amount of time. A working edge, meaning 'I can still hog off some more material' edge, did outlast the M2. The Thompson gouges seem to be the best as far as I can tell. Regardless, I still use a fresh edge for the finish cut.
robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Not worth the extra money

My opinion is particle steels are not worth the extra money for bowls and hollow forms. My reasoning is that I sharpen before every finish cut and when the bevel gets sap on it.

For example on a hollow form 10" diameter 7" high
I would sharpen:
When begin
halfway through the roughing *** particle steel still sharp ***
before doing the finish cut on the surface
before starting the shear scraping
before the final shear scrap

At best the particle steel tool would only save one sharpening during the roughing
If the wood has a lot of sap or gum I sharpen while the tool is still sharp to clean the bevel.

A 2030 tool costs nearly 2x M2 and 2060 more that 2x M2.
with 5 sharpenings for M2 to 4 for particle steel. The particle steel lasts 20% longer than M2 but cost 80-90% more.

For spindle tools the particle steel may be a good deal since these tools are useally sharpend when they are dull as every cut is sort of a finish cut.

Happy Turning,
Al

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Al - Maybe the 2060 results in less tear out and a better cut during roughing since there is less tendency to rough with a dull tool. It seems like this would reduce the amount of finish cuts required and be an additional savings.

Ed

 

[Malcolm Smith]

I've two of the 2060 scrapers and find them to be excellent. They are not equivalent to the Glaser tools however. Still, I would highly recommend them. One good feature is the thickness of the steel.

I sharpen on a Tormek. It's very possible that these tools would not sharpen as well on a high speed grinder. Perhaps someone has an opinion. Some metals end up with splits along the cutting edge if heated and then quenched in water. It's my impression that this is especially true with the harder steels. It's best to let the steel cool without quenching.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[Mark Mandell]

I've two of the 2060 scrapers and find them to be excellent. They are not equivalent to the Glaser tools however. Still, I would highly recommend them. One good feature is the thickness of the steel.

I sharpen on a Tormek. It's very possible that these tools would not sharpen as well on a high speed grinder. Perhaps someone has an opinion. Some metals end up with splits along the cutting edge if heated and then quenched in water. It's my impression that this is especially true with the harder steels. It's best to let the steel cool without quenching.

Malcolm Smith.

High speed steel, regardless of alloy or "process", should never be quenched; not in water, not in anything EVER. It's one thing to keep it cool in a water-bath grinder, it's quite another the heat it up and then quench it. Besides, if you're getting your tools red hot on a grinder, you're actually trying to ruin them. Learn better grinding technique and you can ignore the whole issue. My tools get warm when being ground, but never hot.

 

[john lucas]

I would recommend trying the Thompson tools. They do hold an edge longer in my opinion. I have never owned a 2030 or 2060 tool so I can't compare them. The thompson tools are state of the art in turning tool technology. They are particle metal with 9.75% vanadium and they have also been cryogenically toughened. www.thompsonlathetools.com
I was turning ferrules out of brass and swapping back and forth between my Thompson tools and my HSS gouges and the thompson tools held an edge well enough that I could turn wood without resharpening. I always have to resharpen after turning the ferrule with my HSS tool.

 

[Steve Worcester]

I would recommend trying the Thompson tools. They do hold an edge longer in my opinion. I have never owned a 2030 or 2060 tool so I can't compare them. The thompson tools are state of the art in turning tool technology. They are particle metal with 9.75% vanadium and they have also been cryogenically toughened. www.thompsonlathetools.com
I was turning ferrules out of brass and swapping back and forth between my Thompson tools and my HSS gouges and the thompson tools held an edge well enough that I could turn wood without resharpening. I always have to resharpen after turning the ferrule with my HSS tool.

I am a big fan of particle metal tools and being into technology, now a big fan of the Thompson line.
I think I only have a few M2/M4 tools now and have totally switched to powdered metals.

 

[Fog Tanner]

I have a number of M2 tools, and a number of the Thompson tools. The Thompson tools are my tools of preference now. I have them in shallow and bowl gouges along with skews. I sharpen everything, except my 5/8" Ellsworth grinds, on my Tormek. The Thompson tools seem to like the 220 and 1000 grit better than the 100 grit on my dry grinder.

The edge on the Thompson tools starts out sharper and lasts longer than any of my M2 tools. Where this is really appaent is spindle work using a skew. I generally get better shavings from my Thompson skews than the M2. I will generally have 4 skews laid out and switch from one to the next as they get dull, then sharpen all 4 - keeps you in rythem but also gives you a break. I will use the Thomspon the longest before moving on to the next. On some boxes, I have never moved on to the second skew.

And for the price difference, I cannot see buying anymore M2 or the higher priced 2030/2060. Besides the name is cool, in guns when you say Thompson everyone knows what you are referring to. I'm looking for a used violin case to carry my Thompson's in like they did in the 20's (at least in the movies).....

 

[Richn]

ASP 2060 HHS tools

This is great insight. It seems it is a matter of price vs performace. I for one will forget all about the price if I have to sharpen often. If I can get more time at the lathe with out losing concentration that is what I want. It is my interest to keep at the lathe and not the grinding wheel.

Thanks for all the insight. For Christmas I have put my Santa list together to all my kids for a couple of Hamlet 2060 gouges, a skew and a parting tool.

Thanks folks.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

High speed steel, regardless of alloy or "process", should never be quenched; not in water, not in anything EVER. It's one thing to keep it cool in a water-bath grinder, it's quite another the heat it up and then quench it. Besides, if you're getting your tools red hot on a grinder, you're actually trying to ruin them. Learn better grinding technique and you can ignore the whole issue. My tools get warm when being ground, but never hot.

I've posted my comments having seen a lot of people over the years quenching tools they sharpen with water. One of the reasons to use a wet grinding system such as a Tormek is that there is no risk to the temper of the steel. It doesn't take much to change the temper of the steel, even HS steel and typically it isn't noticed that the tool no longer holds an edge.

I use a Tormek,

Malcolm Smith.

 

[jdsilwones]

Can you feel it?

Take a look at the AAW sharpening vid we got this year where Bonnie gives a great explanation, with facts, on tool temper. Even turning colors on the edge will not change the temper of HHS, just don't let it get glowing red.
With that said I prefer the Crown Pro PM for the edge but it is also the best feeling gouge in my hand. The Sorby tools hold an edge just as well as any I have tried but I sharpen often and quickly.
Don't fret the metallurgy. Look at how the major brands feel in your hand for the type of turning you do and your hand size. Just don't buy a cheap tool.

 

[Richn]

Sharpening my tools

I use a Makita horizontal sharpening wheel that sits in my basement sink, I dribble water from the faucet and it sharpens extremely well and does not get the tool hot. Nothing like water to cool your tool.

 

[john lucas]

Long before I ever read Jerry Glaser's statement that you should not quench HSS, I did. It's always been a habit to keep water next to the grinder and cool anything I'm grinding. I have never noticed a difference in my tools from doing this. I stopped after reading his statement but I wonder how hot you actually have to get the metal to damage it by quenching.
I learned to sharpen quite a while ago and not let anything get blue so I wonder if that's why I never had problems. Or are these fractures so small it only dulls the edge when they fracture.

 

[Brian Hahn]

Sharpening HSS tools

I simply can't get concerned about overheating a tool that is made from one of the HSS alloys. These alloys are designed to maintain their hardness at a dull red temperature. That is a lot hotter than simple grinding will ever produce.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I simply can't get concerned about overheating a tool that is made from one of the HSS alloys. These alloys are designed to maintain their hardness at a dull red temperature. That is a lot hotter than simple grinding will ever produce.

I agree with that, but I would like to go on and mention a couple other things for the benefit of others concerning sharpening -- especially water quenching.

When it comes to edge dulling, it is not normally a temper change that is the problem. The steel right at the edge, being extremely thin, especially on spindle turning tools such as a skew may not show any noticeable oxidation color changes nor glowing from the steel getting hot, but it is not hard to envision that the edge is the area that gets the hottest and is least able to dissipate heat through conduction. Even though the temper is basically not degraded, the heating at the edge dissipates its heat fairly rapidly by convection to the surrounding air and it is the fairly rapid temperature change that can (in the case of thin edges) produce microscopic fractures along the length of the edge that weaken the edge strength by a small amount. When you are concerned about razor sharpness this small change can be a factor in edge longevity. This is one of the reasons for edges wearing out and also a point mentioned by wet turners regarding edge longevity.

If the edge were cooled even more rapidly by quenching in water, the cooling become much more of a shock change that has a more significant effect on the development of microfractures. Since we know that heating of the steel within reason does not significantly degrade the temper, it should be obvious that water quenching serves no useful purpose.

 

[Steve Worcester]

If the edge were cooled even more rapidly by quenching in water, the cooling become much more of a shock change that has a more significant effect on the development of microfractures. Since we know that heating of the steel within reason does not significantly degrade the temper, it should be obvious that water quenching serves no useful purpose.

The water quenching allow you to hold the tool comfortably, at least that is the only time I quench it. About the only time I need to quench is when i am changing the angles or removing an appreciable amount of steel. Unless I am really removing metal quickly and with alot of pressure, I don't think it goes over a couple hundred degrees F.

 

[Jake Debski]

The water quenching allow you to hold the tool comfortably, at least that is the only time I quench it. About the only time I need to quench is when i am changing the angles or removing an appreciable amount of steel. Unless I am really removing metal quickly and with alot of pressure, I don't think it goes over a couple hundred degrees F.

Steve, when I re-grind I place the tool in a bucket of ice and water prior to grinding, this allows several seconds more grinding. As I grind as soon as the steel begins to warm, not hot, an inch or so back of the edge I again place it in the ice water. There is usually more than enough to do in the shop so waiting to cool is not a waste of time. I learned this method from our former Chapter pres. Kurt Hertzog.