Ashley Harwood Bottom Of The Bowl Gouge

[Tim Tucker]

Forgive me if I seem to interrupt, or be blunt - please. However - the claim that was made is something that....I would rather believe is a mis-understanding on the part of the turner. No disrespect toward anyone is intended. I just know that while "anything is possible"....the one side of this that has been told is diametric to my experience with Ashley, so if I am equally qualified to opine here.... and based on what Cindy's response was - that we are only hearing one side....do we really need to convict someone based on just 1 side of - what is likely a misunderstanding?

 

[hockenbery]

But I think the original question here was about having purchased a tool, and then asking about how to sharpen the tool. When I purchase a car, I expect the dealer to tell me where the gas goes, and what the maintenance should be. When I buy most items I get some use and care instructions.

There was probably major miscommunications. You aren’t asking the car dealer to teach you to do tuneups.

The BOB is one of the easiest tools to sharpen. Two questions and reasonable responses

What angle is front bevel -> simple answer

how do I sharpen it -> long time consuming answer

 

[Paul Heely]

I have the AH Bowl Turning Video. For a comprehensive video series on turning bowls, I thought it was well done and worth the price. In the video she states she turns the BOB at 50-55 degrees. She eye balls it and does not set a platform at any exact angle like for the 40/40 gouge. The other angles are for relief to make the cut. She does also say that for steeper bowls she'll adjust the angle as needed to make it steeper.

Here's a link to Stuart Batty sharpening gouges that includes the BOB, Stuart Batty 40 40 Bowl Gouge Grind.

 

[Nick Valenza]

Sorry that you had to experience that poor customer service. I am very surprised. This is an aberration in our community. Most woodturning vendors bend over backward to answer any questions about their products.

This is true. She is in the business for money, but that response seems petty. I need to express that I did not have a Steller interaction with the bottom bowl gouge purchase. First, It took a month to get to me (USPS at fault, not the business) and when i got to me it was the wrong one. I reached out, but they didn't get back to me right away. They have a 48 to 72 hours email response time...which might sound petty, but how hard is it to pull up your email and respond now a days. Then they refused to send me what I ordered unless i bought it again, or until they received the incorrectly set gouge firs


I also found her grind to be difficult to use. More so in the leading edge grind.... the wing that leads the cut towards the center of the bowl. i tried angling the gouge so that the lower part of the rear (left) wing (facing towards the turner) does the cutting, but the way you cut the inside of the bowl using the 40/40, they bottom of the bowl in bumpy with ridges, These bumps will make contact with the leading wing (right) which causes your tool to want to roll towards the center of the bowl, making handling it much more difficult. So to avoid that, the left (trailing or rear) wing stays un swept back at 90 degrees, but the right (leading or front) wing is swept back 15 of 20 degree. This ensures the leading wing will not make contact with the wood, and with slow and steady pressure, you can glide the gouge much easier and smoothly through the bottom third of the bowl. I not sure of the primary bevel angle that come on it, but through trial and error with cheaper gouges, 75 degrees worked best. The Idea came from Sam the Wyoming woodturner. Sam Angelo.

 

[robo hippy]

That straight across grind on any BOB tool is asking for catches, for just the reasons you described, that square corner will want to catch. Mine have about a 40 degree sweep to them. I sharpen on a platform, and use the same lines I use for the 40/40 grind. I still have to kind of sneak up on the ridges in the bottom of the bowl if I left line/ridges. Most of the time, I do all of my roughing with scrapers, so the bottom is smooth rather than having those ridges. I do like my BOB tools up on edge rather than flutes straight up, which also seemed to make the corners want to dig in. It does seem to make going through the transition easier.

robo hippy

 

[Doug Freeman]

I have had the same issue and similar solution. I use a parabolic flute, as I just cant bring myself to pay the price for a U flute. The parabolic flutes are deeper, so I also cut the right flute down at the end to shorten the edge length (as well as angling back ~15 deg).

 

[Tim Tucker]

Doug- I know it is a pain…. Bt could you sgare a picture of that grind and edjamucate an Aggie on that grind and advantages please…

 

[Doug Freeman]

Parabolic flute, 70 deg narrow bevel, excessive relief grind (converted from another grind), wings ground back ~15 deg.

Pic 1 - flute up, can see ~45 deg relief at top of right wing

Pic 2 - better pic of right wing, flute opened up

Pic 3 - flute down. The right wing (flute held up) is swept back a bit more than left.

The wing sweep, and right wing length reduction, is to limit the chip load as described above by Nick.

I use an Ellsworth grind at 60 deg. At the same depth of cut, The BOB will have a longer edge in contact with wood, peeling the chip less aggressively than the Ellsworth grind, effectively acting like a shallower depth of cut with less tear out. It does better than the Ellsworth for tear out using the Ellsworth flute up or flute rotated almost 90 deg right, and anywhere in between.

I’m still tweaking the grind a bit - not trying to say this is end all be all, or that its as good as a U flute, since I’ve never used one. Just saying it works better than my Ellsworth grind in the bottom for tear out. Of course the steeper bevel keeps the handle in more for rim clearance as well.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

This is true. She is in the business for money, but that response seems petty. I need to express that I did not have a Steller interaction with the bottom bowl gouge purchase. First, It took a month to get to me (USPS at fault, not the business) and when i got to me it was the wrong one. I reached out, but they didn't get back to me right away. They have a 48 to 72 hours email response time...which might sound petty, but how hard is it to pull up your email and respond now a days. Then they refused to send me what I ordered unless i bought it again, or until they received the incorrectly set gouge firs


I also found her grind to be difficult to use. More so in the leading edge grind.... the wing that leads the cut towards the center of the bowl. i tried angling the gouge so that the lower part of the rear (left) wing (facing towards the turner) does the cutting, but the way you cut the inside of the bowl using the 40/40, they bottom of the bowl in bumpy with ridges, These bumps will make contact with the leading wing (right) which causes your tool to want to roll towards the center of the bowl, making handling it much more difficult. So to avoid that, the left (trailing or rear) wing stays un swept back at 90 degrees, but the right (leading or front) wing is swept back 15 of 20 degree. This ensures the leading wing will not make contact with the wood, and with slow and steady pressure, you can glide the gouge much easier and smoothly through the bottom third of the bowl. I not sure of the primary bevel angle that come on it, but through trial and error with cheaper gouges, 75 degrees worked best. The Idea came from Sam the Wyoming woodturner. Sam Angelo.

The reason you can’t use is because your 75 degrees. There is definitely a learning curve with a bottom bowl gouge. If you start with the wrong angle, makes it even harder to learn. Ashley and Stuart use 60 degrees.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Parabolic flute, 70 deg narrow bevel, excessive relief grind (converted from another grind), wings ground back ~15 deg.

Pic 1 - flute up, can see ~45 deg relief at top of right wing

Pic 2 - better pic of right wing, flute opened up

Pic 3 - flute down. The right wing (flute held up) is swept back a bit more than left.

The wing sweep, and right wing length reduction, is to limit the chip load as described above by Nick.

I use an Ellsworth grind at 60 deg. At the same depth of cut, The BOB will have a longer edge in contact with wood, peeling the chip less aggressively than the Ellsworth grind, effectively acting like a shallower depth of cut with less tear out. It does better than the Ellsworth for tear out using the Ellsworth flute up or flute rotated almost 90 deg right, and anywhere in between.

I’m still tweaking the grind a bit - not trying to say this is end all be all, or that its as good as a U flute, since I’ve never used one. Just saying it works better than my Ellsworth grind in the bottom for tear out. Of course the steeper bevel keeps the handle in more for rim clearance as well.



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Pictures are really blurry. What I can see looks a grind very hard to use.

 

[Gord Cameron]

As others have noted, it seems that the basic angle information should be provided free, while detailed sharpening instruction is something else. I note that each of my Glenn Lucas gouges (including his BOB gouge) came with a guide that provides both the bevel angle of the gouge and the specific settings on each of several popular sharpening jigs (Oneway, Woodcut, Tormek, Sorby) to achieve the both the angle and the sweep of the wings for each gouge. He also has some detailed sharpening instruction videos for sale, but the basic information is included in the package with the gouge. (BTW his BOB is ground at 60º).

 

[Doug Freeman]

Pictures are really blurry. What I can see looks a grind very hard to use.

Well…I see they become pixelated when you zoom in. What looks hard to use? I’m still learning how to best do the grind and use it, and taking all input.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Well…I see they become pixelated when you zoom in. What looks hard to use? I’m still learning how to best do the grind and use it, and taking all input.

I have never seen a grind that looks like that. And I have seen a lot of weird ones that people bring to my shop so I can fix what they have done. Looks like some kind of a hybrid spindle grind, hard to tell. As is, I think is impossible to get a clean surface with that. I always say, when people tell me the 40/40 did not work for them, 100% is because they made a grind that is nothing even close to anything Stuart batty uses.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

I would like to see a video of you using a bottom bowl gouge with 85 degrees bevel. I find it, and most professionals do too, unusable, very grabby. Stuart Batty has his at 60 degrees for bowls and 50 for platters. In calabashes, I use both. Ashley is, like me, one of the 8th Stuart Batty apprentices. She would have hers at 60 degrees. The other bevels are not that important. The second one is there so you can quickly change from 60 to 50. Because is a very short bevel, you can change the angle in seconds. The 3rd secondary bevel is there so you don't bruise the wood with the heel. My hat is off to you if you can leave a glossy surface with an 85 degrees bevel, Stuart and I find it impossible to use. I do not like to fight with a bowl gouge, I want her to work for me. @Russell Karkheck no charge for this info, LOL

Love it! Thanks emiliano, anybody that tried to get me to buy a $90 video on a tool they just sold me for 140$ , well I would just send it back. That’s criminal in my books. A money grab! I here Stuart redoing his line of tools again soon. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

Russell, the 40 degrees is for the bowl gouge. The bottom bowl gouge has a bit of a learning curve. I believe mainly because you have to let her do the work by not holding it like a regular gouge. Most people have the tendency to want it to guide it and hold it like an Ellsworth gouge. The flute should be around 12 to 1, like you said. Moving it above center in an arc, coming down right at center, then you slow it down so you do not tear up the center. You can do an entire bowl with a 60 degree Ellsworth gouge, I have about 3 of them, including one that I traded Koa for a 5/8 gouge with David. The 60 degree is much easier to control than an 80 or 85. That would $1, payable thru PayPal, LOL

Well Russel you just got your $90$ worth for a $1. I love this forum. I’m still hung up on this 90$ video . I can see directing someone to a video that has not bought anything. But like buying a car. If you buy a high end tool it should come with instructions to at least sharpen it. I really thing she has made a mistake on this one! But we all learn from mistakes.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I have never seen a grind that looks like that. And I have seen a lot of weird ones that people bring to my shop so I can fix what they have done. Looks like some kind of a hybrid spindle grind, hard to tell. As is, I think is impossible to get a clean surface with that. I always say, when people tell me the 40/40 did not work for them, 100% is because they made a grind that is nothing even close to anything Stuart batty uses.

70 deg narrow bevel, excessive relief grind (converted from another grind), wings ground back ~15 deg.

I suspect the “excessive relief grind” is throwing you off. There is ~1/8” wide 70 deg bevel, then the relief. It is hard to see the bevel in the pics. Think about the 70 deg bevel and the angle of wing sweep shown. Block out the relief grind. As its ground back the relief will shrink.

 

[Nick Valenza]

The reason you can’t use is because your 75 degrees. There is definitely a learning curve with a bottom bowl gouge. If you start with the wrong angle, makes it even harder to learn. Ashley and Stuart use 60 degrees.

Sorry If I was confusing, but what I was saying was that the grind that comes on it was more of a challenge, and that my grind (Sam Angelo's Grind) with the 75 degree micro bevel works wonders. But whatever works!

 

[Nick Valenza]

Love it! Thanks emiliano, anybody that tried to get me to buy a $90 video on a tool they just sold me for 140$ , well I would just send it back. That’s criminal in my books. A money grab! I here Stuart redoing his line of tools again soon. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I heard the same thing from Woodworkers Emporium.

 

[Tim Tucker]

I am going to quote someone I know here.....

Not to belabor the point… but the $90 is not just how to sharpen. It is a complete syllabus of claases… a course on woodturning.
When I e-mailed her a question she answered it as well as recommended her course on woodturning. Fair enough. My gut says that would be her normal kind of response. She is a strong marketer and some will find that off-putting. I suppose it equals the off-put feeling I have for other professionals whose egos give them permission to profunderate on how their method is the only way to do things.
The human condition we all suffer is one replete with flaws…. and lack of humility