Are Wood Turnings Considered Art with the General Public?

[Steve Tiedman]

John, your replies are much deeper than my question. All I am asking is in general, does the public accept wood as art. My original question was more specific to turned wood art. In my area, I do not think so, which is why I asked the question here since there are exceptional turners all over the world.

Perhaps my question should have been: Why art galleries and art shows do not have more (if at all) wood art.

(I stopped reading at Jim's post, in case I'm repeating someone else.)

I have two points:
1- art is art for its own sake, and art's value should not be thought of in terms of money. A pure artist does not make art in trade for money. (Art and capitalism are not always in harmony.) The fan of the art may consider it the most wonderful, beautiful thing they could imagine, but when asked by the artist to convert that interest into cash, well, now the art is just a commodity, and the artist a manufacturer. To answer your question, yes, I think the public accepts wood objects, turned or otherwise, as art, but I don't think the public, universally, puts a similar monetary value, or even just a general interest, on wood art forms as it would to the same object made from another more "typical" art medium. What if you made the most gorgeous art from concrete, or popsicle sticks, or dried flowers, should we artists insist galleries and art shows admit those pieces as readily as more traditional materials? We should hope so, but they probably won't. They won't sell.

2- society's relationship with wood. It's a tree in the yard. It's used to frame and trim our homes. It's waste products are pressed into panels and used for crappy furniture and cabinetry. It's chipped up and we line our garden beds and park trails with it. We use it to make forklift pallets and cardboard and skateboards and shovel handles and fences and... and art.

Glass, bronze, marble, oil on canvas- these things are not as universally utilitarian, nor available, as wood. Wood is common, maybe too common. And maybe that common nature devalues it (monetarily, emotionally, and in any other way that people may objectively or subjectively assign value and worth) in all things it's made into, comparatively speaking, and in particular as an art medium.

Turn wood because you love to turn wood into art. If you also want to sell your art, well, now you are in business, you are a manufacturer, and you need to have a plan to sell your product to an identified market for as much money as your market will bear.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

A theoretical question:

If we take a famous painting where nobody would dispute that it is art:
View attachment 68045
Would a lithograph of the same painting still be art?

=o=

I'm my view, yes.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

The product must be appropriate to the market or venue. Most of the time we blame the material. Glass is just as prevalent, more fragile, harder to make, harder to ship but found a place in the art world. They learned the medium and how to do it right. Go to a museum, there are works in wood. I saw a large carving at a fine art show in Houston that had a giant crack in the back. The guy that did the piece a good carver but did not learn the basics of the medium. To compete in the big art world, what you put on the table has to compete.
Rant over 😎

 

[John Dillon]

Before I started woodturning, about 5 years ago, my wife and I often visted artsy type stores and galleries when we travelled. Seemed we always "looked for" pottery, and glass items that might fit our home decor.

To be honest, although I was along-time woodworker, and had used a lathe 40 years ago when I was in school, I never really considered searching out wood turned items in stores or galleries, although they would possibly be similar in size, shape, price, etc, as to the glass and pottery pieces. Mostly because I didn't realize at the time (just 5 years ago) that wood turned items "had come so far" in the world of what we considered art at the time.

So, I would have to say, I feel the general public probably does not consider wood, as a 3-dimensional art medium as much as glass, pottery, bronze sculpture etc.

Now that I do woodturning like the rest of us on this forum, of course, my attidude has changed...............

 

[Jim Grieco]

I think pieces like these by Jean-Claude Charpignon are certainly art:

View attachment 68047

View attachment 68048 View attachment 68049

Jean-Claude is a current day ornamental turner living in France. These certainly look like Coburg Ivories, but they are wood..

This is another beautiful piece of work. I do not know a wood worker would not think the same. But what would the general public think?

 

[Jim Grieco]

I also suspect there is a generational issue as well. Many substantial collectors are on the upper end of the age spectrum, and artistic woodturning is still in its relative infancy. Wood has been used primarily for utilitarian purposes for ages, but other crafts (ceramic and glass) have been represented in the art scene for a long while (alongside utilitarian purposes). The studio craft movement post-WW2 played a huge role in the revamp and or initiation of ceramic/wood/textile/glass craft. It sounds morbid to say, but we’re really only at the timeline where the first generation (in general, obviously there were many more prior) of artistic woodturning pioneers are dying (Osolnik, Hogbin, Marsh, Stockdale, Sudol, to name a few). Think about how many generations of painters, potters, glass artists, etc… have represented their crafts in an artistic context. Woodturning will catch up.

I think you hit the nail on the head!

 

[Jim Grieco]

It’s art if it rises to that level.
One of the hold-ups in our medium is the high level of craft required to successfully turn anything, let alone something good enough to be called art.
I’ve not been able to understand why folks decide to try turning, after a successful career doing things that don’t involve tools, or working with one’s hands, turn a half dozen bowls, and come to this forum asking how much should I charge.
It’s unrealistic and distracts from the real goal, excellence.
I feel that trying to make what you think people are buying is but a lesson in frustration. Unless, of course you make $20 flea market stuff. Hardly art though.

I’ve heard the very same things as have others, about galleries not being so interested in turned wood. I was bummed.
But I looked my own work. Since I’m not an artist the way some are, but have good design instincts and am what some call a perfectionist, I decided to refine and improve. Not new tools and new tricks. Instead, a refinement of my methods, and my attention to detail.

Now, I’m still not producing museum pieces, I will though. I sell at just a few shows a year. My prices are high, especially compared with other turners who might be at the show. Often they sell more than me, and that’s fine. My goal is to make the very finest bowls, and sell them for fare prices. Some shoppers see my prices and keep walking, others want to talk about my art (their words), while some love to talk about it and break out the plastic.

And that’s enough for me. I continue this craft, knowing that I can be just as perfectionist as I want, because someone is going to absolutely love the art they bought from me.

Well said!

 

[RichColvin]

This is another beautiful piece of work. I do not know a wood worker would not think the same. But what would the general public think?

Jean-Claude is recognized and awarded as an artist in Europe. When I show his work to anyone, the immediate reaction is, "Wow, that's beautiful." Unfortunately, it is followed by, "Can you do that?"

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

One of the hold-ups in our medium is the high level of craft required to successfully turn anything, let alone something good enough to be called art.

One of the big surprises I got years ago was artists asking me to do work for them because I had the equipment to make their designs in an efficient manner. There doesn't seem to be much objection in the general art buying crowd to having an artist's design made by other than the artist.

I've done wood, metal and glass pieces for local artists and architects. One is internationally known, he called to set up a meeting with his CAD guy (an artist with a CAD guy on payroll is about as unknown as you'd ever expect). Local boy Dale Chihuly is the ultimate self promoter bringing in big bucks with his glass, he hasn't blown in many years but has promising glass artists blowing his designs 40 hours a week. Across state from me we have the well respected Walla Walla art foundry with the most sophisticated CNC machinery you can imagine working from artist's sketches or small models. The most expensive individual piece I worked on was a base for blown glass that sold for $64K. Generally wood art doesn't bring in the big dollars of glass and metal art.

 

[Mike Novak]

Our club had a booth at a local craft show. One of our members brought in a beautifully crafted, unique hollow form. I received many questions about “what is it for”. My answer was it’s an art piece. I then encouraged them to remove the turquoise stopper and look inside, to see the intricate design on the inside. Every person I spoke with seemed disappointed it wasn’t “for” anything. Maybe it was the venue, but it seems that if it’s wood, people want it to be useful.

As far as value of art, I believe that’s driven more by the reputation of the artist than by any other factor. If one of the artists working for Dale Chihuley put his own name on a piece, it would not fetch 1/10, maybe not even 1/100 of what it gets with Dales name on it.

 

[Tim Hunter]

My comment "Change my mind" was directed at that specific person who said I was bias.

You misunderstood what I meant. My comment reflects how I believe the general public would collectively respond to the question - the majority would say "no", and thus bias the collective response toward "no". I did not say that you were bias.

Tim (a.k.a that specific person)

 

[Jim Grieco]

You misunderstood what I meant. My comment reflects how I believe the general public would collectively respond to the question - the majority would say "no", and thus bias the collective response toward "no". I did not say that you were bias.

Tim (a.k.a that specific person)

Got it - apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[Jim Grieco]

2- society's relationship with wood. It's a tree in the yard. It's used to frame and trim our homes. It's waste products are pressed into panels and used for crappy furniture and cabinetry. It's chipped up and we line our garden beds and park trails with it. We use it to make forklift pallets and cardboard and skateboards and shovel handles and fences and... and art.

Glass, bronze, marble, oil on canvas- these things are not as universally utilitarian, nor available, as wood. Wood is common, maybe too common. And maybe that common nature devalues it (monetarily, emotionally, and in any other way that people may objectively or subjectively assign value and worth) in all things it's made into, comparatively speaking, and in particular as an art medium.

Unfortunately this is very true

 

[Jim Grieco]

So, I would have to say, I feel the general public probably does not consider wood, as a 3-dimensional art medium as much as glass, pottery, bronze sculpture etc.

Now that I do woodturning like the rest of us on this forum, of course, my attidude has changed...............

It appears this is the sad truth
*If only everyone realized the time and effort that goes into wood art like us turners do

 

[Jim Grieco]

Generally wood art doesn't bring in the big dollars of glass and metal art.

Very true!
My wife's daughter is an artist. She is an abstract painter and gets good $$$ for her paintings. Probably spends the same amount of time a wood artist would and maybe not as much in supplies. No power tools or machines (unless small tools for framing).
I am proud of her and very happy for her success. But . . .

 

[Dave Landers]

Our club had a booth at a local craft show. One of our members brought in a beautifully crafted, unique hollow form. I received many questions about “what is it for”. My answer was it’s an art piece.

I get the same - someone holding up one of my hollow forms, obviously admiring it, then comes that "what do you do with it" - to which I usually answer "you're already doing it right now".

 

[Randy Anderson]

My pieces are more obviously vases for display or for flowers than artistic hollow forms so I don't get the "what is it for" question but, I do answer the "can it hold water" question on just about every interaction.

 

[hockenbery]

When I get the “what does it hold”. I answer “dreams”

“Can it hold water” -I answer “at least once”. Then if there is no laugh “it’s no recommended “

 

[Donna Banfield]

Our club had a booth at a local craft show. One of our members brought in a beautifully crafted, unique hollow form. I received many questions about “what is it for”. My answer was it’s an art piece. I then encouraged them to remove the turquoise stopper and look inside, to see the intricate design on the inside. Every person I spoke with seemed disappointed it wasn’t “for” anything. Maybe it was the venue, but it seems that if it’s wood, people want it to be useful.

As far as value of art, I believe that’s driven more by the reputation of the artist than by any other factor. If one of the artists working for Dale Chihuley put his own name on a piece, it would not fetch 1/10, maybe not even 1/100 of what it gets with Dales name on it.

I think it had almost everything to do with the venue. I started selling in local craft venues, (early 2000's) where a space to set up a table was $50. Free admission. I ran into those questions constantly.

Today, I do 4-5 shows a year, where the booth and electricity for a 3-day show runs between $1500-$3000, depending on the time of the year. People attending those shows are paying between $14 - $20 per person to get in. I have never been asked the "What's it for" question at these shows. Different venue/different crowd.

 

[Donna Banfield]

Wood is considered art. We are in the 'infancy stages' of it being considered art, though.

This is a screenshot of the current bid on a couple of works of art at auction. All the forms in this auction were turned by the late Bill Luce. His widow, Monica, allowed several makers to participate in a 'collaboration', finishing some of his forms. Below are just two. Here's a link to the entire auction: Bill Luce Auction

 

[Curt Fuller]

When I get the “what does it hold”. I answer “dreams”

“Can it hold water” -I answer “at least once”. Then if there is no laugh “it’s no recommended “

Another good answer for "what does it hold" would be "your attention".

 

[Jim Grieco]

I think it had almost everything to do with the venue. I started selling in local craft venues, (early 2000's) where a space to set up a table was $50. Free admission. I ran into those questions constantly.

Today, I do 4-5 shows a year, where the booth and electricity for a 3-day show runs between $1500-$3000, depending on the time of the year. People attending those shows are paying between $14 - $20 per person to get in. I have never been asked the "What's it for" question at these shows. Different venue/different crowd.

Wow, I have never seen shows with those booth fee costs but your work belongs there!

 

[John Ames]

Please spend some time reading the forum thread that Michael mentioned. I don't want to re-hash all the interesting thoughts provided therein that speak directly to your original question.

Woodturning being defined as "art"

The discussion thread on "embellishment" is the impetus for this post. I did not want to take over that discussion and I thought some people might be interested in this perspective. Some 15 years ago (or more?) I got into a serendipitous and fascinating discussion with a group of art...

www.aawforum.org

As I have been moving away from the "craft" market and gotten lucky enough to display and sell my bowls at some fairly high end "art" shows in the past few years, I'm learning a lot from these wealthy buyers/collectors.

1. If you make something truly unique, the more the chance the buyer will see it as "art". There is nothing wrong, at all, with "round and brown" but its hard for these high end buyers to justify spending relatively big dollars on a wood bowl.

2. For these buyers, embellishment and/or highly unique form and/or size will distinguish wood products as "art."

3. There needs to be a "reason" for the piece. Not a "purpose," per se but a reason it was made and a special way in which it was made. In my experience, and I might be alone here, the story of the piece, and the reason I (as the artist) saw the wood as valuable when I first harvested it is arguably more important than the item's craftsmanship. Don't get me wrong - it has to be made well and look good and catch attention, but if you can get the buyer in your tent/gallery and give them a "reason" why this piece is special, and was worth YOUR time, the chance of a high-end sale goes way up.

4. If you find a well heeled buyer/collector they will always find you and recommend you. I think this is how long time jewelers stay in business.

For what it's worth, I haven't had a working website or social media presence of any kind for over two years. But my income from selling bowls has nearly doubled during this time because (I think) my work has become more exclusive to these types of customers and the buyers feel they have found me... I didn't find them. Subtle difference.

For these buyers, wood turnings absolutely are art.

 

[John K Jordan]

John, your replies are much deeper than my question. All I am asking is in general, does the public accept wood as art. My original question was more specific to turned wood art. In my area, I do not think so, which is why I asked the question here since there are exceptional turners all over the world.

Perhaps my question should have been: Why art galleries and art shows do not have more (if at all) wood art.

I suspect the area and the concentration of people who appreciate art living in or visiting galleries in that area are primary factors.

For example, I have several friends who are "genuine" artists, in that they create and sell art. When visiting Asheville, NC, an area recognized by some as an artistic "hot spot" in the US, I was taken to several wonderful galleries. Perhaps my friends picked galleries that were "friendly" to woodturning, I don't know, but I saw many things made from wood, a bunch turned (some heavily carved, textured, colored, some large, some small). Some very expensive, but who knows what has been sold, compared to other art forms of metals, ceramics, paintings/photos, or even textiles.

(BTW, if in Washington DC, consider a visit to the fabulous George Washington University Textile Museum. It's not a gallery and items in the collection are not for sale, but some things in the museum shop are apparently inspired by things in the museum collection. As someone who works with fiber on occasion, the museum was a real treat.)

Also, who knows what comprises the "public" who visit and perhaps buy from those galleries. Living in several states and spending time in many more across the country, I knew people from large cities, suburbs, small towns, and rural/farming areas. I haven't done even basic research, but my impression is only a very few would have "art gallery visit" on their destination list, and unlike craft shows, fewer still might consider a purchase.

All this seems like a good research opportunity for someone who might want to create a consulting business advising those who work with wood and want to sell things!

JKJ

 

[Curt Fuller]

I don't have much gallery experience so this is purely anecdotal but I think the "general public" tends to lean heavily towards painting. Just about anyone can pull the names of a few famous painters off the top of their head but it gets a little harder to think of famous artists that make three dimensional art. The word "artist" conjures up an image of a painter standing at an easel in most people's minds. But woodturning is much more baffling to the general public. I get the question quite often...how do you scoop the inside out. And it can be hard to explain to someone that has no concept of standing at a lathe. There's also the logistics of art that favors painting. Most people have much more wall space in their homes than flat surfaces for displaying art. And painting is relatively easy to reproduce as a much less expensive print compared to most turned wood art being a one of a kind piece of art from a unique piece of wood.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I think pieces like these by Jean-Claude Charpignon are certainly art:

Rich, am I correct in assuming these type pieces are a series of individual pieces stacked/glued together?

Art?? More of an exhibit of difficult craftsmanship overdone to me. My feeling is extremely difficult craftsmanship passes for art too many times. When I look at that piece my thought is how did he do certain parts of it, not that it's a beautiful piece of art. The term dog's breakfast comes to mind

 

[JeffSmith]

Rich, am I correct in assuming these type pieces are a series of individual pieces stacked/glued together?

Art?? More of an exhibit of difficult craftsmanship overdone to me. My feeling is extremely difficult craftsmanship passes for art too many times. When I look at that piece my thought is how did he do certain parts of it, not that it's a beautiful piece of art. The term dog's breakfast comes to mind

From the website: (https://plumier.org/the-workshop/)
Jean Claude is a retired engineer who built his own rose engines from engineering lathes. He specializes in “fixed tool” work of the type done in the earliest days of ornamental turning and has set the standard amongst his contemporaries.

The concept of “a dog’s breakfast” must be a relative term.

 

[RichColvin]

Rich, am I correct in assuming these type pieces are a series of individual pieces stacked/glued together?

Art?? More of an exhibit of difficult craftsmanship overdone to me. My feeling is extremely difficult craftsmanship passes for art too many times. When I look at that piece my thought is how did he do certain parts of it, not that it's a beautiful piece of art. The term dog's breakfast comes to mind

There are many pieces here. Doubt they are glued together. Probably threaded together.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Rich, am I correct in assuming these type pieces are a series of individual pieces stacked/glued together?

Art?? More of an exhibit of difficult craftsmanship overdone to me. My feeling is extremely difficult craftsmanship passes for art too many times. When I look at that piece my thought is how did he do certain parts of it, not that it's a beautiful piece of art. The term dog's breakfast comes to mind

I don't know why one would assume that Charpignon's work is assembled. One can see in this site's gallery goblets with tiny bent stems and multi -axis spindle work of less complexity done with hand-held tools on conventional lathes. Prove me wrong, but I tend to think that his work, small scale and done on rigid ornamental lathes, is machined out of a single block. Your own work shows the results possible with rigidly controlled sharp tooling. I leave the judgment of whether it counts as "art" to others. At least it appears to be inutile.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I don't know why one would assume that Charpignon's work is assembled

Only because some of the under cuts would be difficult to do given the close proximity to adjacent designs. I have always contended that any piece that could be done by hand methods or OT can be done on a CNC faster and easier. I don't see that this piece could be done from single piece of wood on a CNC with even 5 axes.

I do suppose if this piece is fairly large , like 4 feet tall, maybe high speed jewelers right angle handpieces might be small enough to allow access for the undercuts.

The reason I don't like the overall piece is it doesn't seem to have any pleasing form or design only a collection of unrelated designs like the top with the offset spiral. Craftsmanship wise it is impressive.

I accept Rich's comment that they are stacked pieces.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Only because some of the under cuts would be difficult to do given the close proximity to adjacent designs. I have always contended that any piece that could be done by hand methods or OT can be done on a CNC faster and easier. I don't see that this piece could be done from single piece of wood on a CNC with even 5 axes.
I accept Rich's comment that they are stacked pieces.

On closer inspection I agree. In this video Charpignon the maker is seen unthreading sections of various pieces, and his machinery does not appear to be capable of the undercuts shown. In any case it is extremely meticulous work if ungainly and over-elaborate.