Are Wood Turnings Considered Art with the General Public?

[Jim Grieco]

*I realize that there are turners who do this just for fun/hobby and give their work to family & friends or charities. Also, some like making the functional smaller pieces that can be sold at farmers markets or craft festivals.
I am not asking about myself!
This is a specific question:
Do you feel that the general public considers wood turning as art? Values of $750 up into the thousands
In my opinion based locally to where I live, the answer is no.
Occasionally my wife and I will do the local art walks or head on over to the affluent areas and tour the art galleries. Never do we see wood on a regular basis as an art form. Paintings, bronze sculptures, glass and even the occasional ceramic but no wood. Since we are in the SW part of the US (Arizona) on a rare occasion we will see a hollow form with Turquoise inlays.
Also, my wife makes bath products so we participate in many arts & crafts festivals. Any wood turner with exceptional work (not farmers market items) never does well. Even the carvers of fancy pieces say the same thing.
Again in my area, galleries demand high commissions (some up to 50%) so maybe this comes into play.

I am sure there are turners who do well with selling high priced turnings but is it the norm?

 

[John K Jordan]

There are all kinds of people; the General Public may be a basket with large holes filtering out the those with finer tastes. In some places and situations, yes, mostly in my experience, the more educated are the more interested.
Most I know who turn to sell struggle at craft shows. A friend of mine did fairs a lot with both wood and ceramic and while he did sell wood, it was mostly ceramic. He does make some huge ceramic pieces (sold one for enough to buy a new tractor) but the sales are sparse, although the galleries love to display them. I think most he has sold go to big corporations for their lobbies and to wealthy people to show off. (I am fortunate to have one he gave me for Christmas one year.)

I do know a few excellent turners who sell some pieces for thousands, but they haven't shared the percentages of things that sell compared to the things displayed.
Some amazingly talented turners survive with big production runs, on the road to symposiums, demos, or specialized classes.

The late great John Jordan, the famous one, has pieces in museums and the hands of collectors all over the world. I have no idea, from the buyer's viewpoint, how much of the attraction is the art and form and how much is the reputation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jordan_(woodturner)

Historically, for the masses of people who have produced art, painting, sculpture, whatever, I understand only a very few achieve fame, and probably only a few of those achieve fortune.

My personal perspective: the bottom line is to turn to please yourself and inspire others, give pieces to spread the joy, and inspire with teaching. For money, get a job!

JKJ

 

[Jim Grieco]

I was not asking for me and what I should do, just a question that has been on my mind.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, the old saying, "If it don't hold soup, it is art" comes up from time to time. Most of my work is very "utilitarian" so no embellishments, texturing, or other fancy stuff. I prefer plain and simple.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Do you feel that the general public considers wood turning as art? Values of $750 up into the thousands

I’m not sure what percentage of the general public considers anything art. And the general public rarely agrees on anything, generally speaking.

In the art collector community- woodturning is represented in museums and public galleries.

Around 2008 the AAW had a booth at Sofa in Chicago. We had few pieces in the booth on loan from various galleries.
One was a spectacular Don Derry hollow form painted in dazzling shimmering colors. A person wanted to buy it so one of the booth minders walked them up to the respective gallery booth to complete the sale.
At that point the prospective buyer saw all the wood and asked, “ this piece isn’t Glass?” - no sale

Regarding the art community in MD. The Chesapeake Woodturners had many ties to the Maryland Federation of Art.
Our club had an annual show in MFA gallery. Some turners were MFA members and at least 3 served as president of MFA in the 15 years I was a member. MFA had an annual fundraiser with a hefty admission price allowing attendees to select one of works of Art donated by members in order of a random drawing. There would always be about 4 woodturnings they were never taken first but 2 or 3 would be taken in the first 10. Of course the woodturning taken first got bragging rights for a year.

 

[Jim Grieco]

In the art collector community- woodturning is represented in museums and public galleries.

Museums and big city galleries are a step above what I was referring to.
Sad but funny about the wood/glass comment. Another example as to why I feel in general wood is not as popular as other mediums.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Jim your question is a good one. The art scene is a moving target. It is different these days in that we are in sensory overload. Everyone at any moment has the world in their hands with just a touch. The sought after viral moment is your competition. The few collectors out there are into specific things. Some like wood. Any collector is going to be looking for something they do not already have probably. The trick is to understand where your work fits in with which audience and go after it with a vengeance. You will find a place that works for you. A fun exercise is to look at art sculpture, painting, craft as art, and the various other genres just to broaden your art vocabulary to include a little of everything. That way you can better assess better which direction works best for you.
John J hit the nail on the head.

 

[Tim Hunter]

Unfortunately, I believe the answer to your question is biased toward "No".

Tim

 

[Richard Coers]

The only way your work will be recognized as art is if you find a patron. They spread the word and suddenly other art supporters show up. It's a glorious feeling. The general public has no real idea what your work is or if it's even needed. That same group really doesn't even know what a woodturner is. There is a few percent that even think we are carpenters. Consider that a lot of people will ask if they can put it in the dishwasher. Not many artists get that question!

 

[Dean Center]

One of our early club members, who is no longer with us, used to do well with his turnings at a gallery in Sedona. Maybe it's partly location, location, location.

A newer turner does well with his art at a local gallery, but he's become pretty creative and original, and his stuff doesn't look like bowls or little bears climbing trees.

Personally, I suspect that most people don't really think about art and couldn't provide a coherent definition (nor could I). Painting is clearly art, marble sculptures are art, bronze castings are probably art, but beyond the 8 pack of Crayolas that make up obvious art forms, you're probably right--most people probably don't think of things as art. Not just wood, but performance art or installation art or ...

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

In my view, it depends on the piece, location, reputation, etc. Do most people think of wood turned bowls as art? Probably not, in most cases. Your segmented vases? Moreso, I would think. Then there is true art in wood. These are made by artists and sculptors who use wood as their medium.



I believe that first piece sold for $8,000.

 

[Larry Mercier]

My personal perspective: the bottom line is to turn to please yourself and inspire others, give pieces to spread the joy, and inspire with teaching. For money, get a job!

Spot on.

JKJ

 

[Jim Grieco]

Unfortunately, I believe the answer to your question is biased toward "No".

Tim

Well, change my mind

 

[Jim Grieco]

In my view, it depends on the piece, location, reputation, etc. Do most people think of wood turned bowls as art? Probably not, in most cases. Your segmented vases? Moreso, I would think. Then there is true art in wood. These are made by artists and sculptors who use wood as their medium.

Yes I agree however I do not see that where I live. Your pictures are great examples of true wood art.

 

[Jim Grieco]

Spot on.

You both are missing my point

 

[Jim Grieco]

Personally, I suspect that most people don't really think about art and couldn't provide a coherent definition (nor could I). Painting is clearly art, marble sculptures are art, bronze castings are probably art, but beyond the 8 pack of Crayolas that make up obvious art forms, you're probably right--most people probably don't think of things as art. Not just wood, but performance art or installation art or ...

It really is a shame. So many talented turners creating beautiful pieces of art!

 

[Jim Grieco]

The only way your work will be recognized as art is if you find a patron. They spread the word and suddenly other art supporters show up. It's a glorious feeling. The general public has no real idea what your work is or if it's even needed. That same group really doesn't even know what a woodturner is. There is a few percent that even think we are carpenters. Consider that a lot of people will ask if they can put it in the dishwasher. Not many artists get that question!

Good point! I guess all the talented turners in my neck of the woods are not trying to be recognized because turned wood art is not readily seen in small local galleries and art shows by me.
It is sad because their wood is just as beautiful and artful as paintings/sculptures/etc

 

[Jim Grieco]

Jim your question is a good one. The art scene is a moving target. It is different these days in that we are in sensory overload. Everyone at any moment has the world in their hands with just a touch. The sought after viral moment is your competition. The few collectors out there are into specific things. Some like wood. Any collector is going to be looking for something they do not already have probably. The trick is to understand where your work fits in with which audience and go after it with a vengeance. You will find a place that works for you. A fun exercise is to look at art sculpture, painting, craft as art, and the various other genres just to broaden your art vocabulary to include a little of everything. That way you can better assess better which direction works best for you.
John J hit the nail on the head.

Thank you Jerry for your thoughts. This is not about me or my work. I have had this question in my head since I started turning and seeing all the beautiful things created by talented turners.
My "art" vocabulary could use a little help

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Yes I agree however I do not see that where I live. Your pictures are great examples of true wood art.

When you first posted that, I looked at your location. I would have expected Phoenix to be more artsy.

 

[Jim Grieco]

When you first posted that, I looked at your location. I would have expected Phoenix to be more artsy.

Oh it is very artsy but wood art is scarce.

 

[Odie]

Well, change my mind

That might be difficult to do, but IMHO, woodturning can traverse between art and not-art.....and, it all might depend on a personal POV that may or may not be shared by others.

It's a bit different than comparing a bad painting or sculpture to a good painting or sculpture....both are traditionally considered to be art.

A rock can be art, because in that universe of high-brow experts, some pseudo intellectual says it is.

I can tell you that some of my customers are art collectors and consider their purchases to be art.....while others are just wanting something to give their home something that represents their taste in home decor. From my POV, both are right and acceptable.....it's all a matter of personal perspective.

Jim.....for what it's worth......I consider your vase to be art.

=o=

 

[Richard Coers]

Here's another personal story about an art gallery and wood. I went to a local gallery and asked about showing some of my work. Gallery owner didn't want it. I became great friends with a husband and wife where both were influential artists in our city. I helped him out quite a lot and he wanted to pay me for my time. I counter offered with an appeal for him to convince the gallery owner to satisfy a bucket list desire of mine. It was to have a show in a gallery. She relented and agreed to let me have a solo show. My friend curated the show, and I sold several pieces on opening night with a really nice crowd. The gallery owner changed her mind.

 

[John K Jordan]

I met a friend of a friend who has two amazing wood sculptures in their house. One is a wall hanging, probably 2' across, 3' dimensional, carved.
The other is a table piece, also large and carved. To me those are art, and probably nearly priceless. I'd trade a car for one.

The wood they are made of is Pink Ivory. I was told that decades ago the artist traveled across the world and had large pink ivory trees harvested, packed it up and had it shipped to the US. I think he made a number of such amazing sculptures, each probably priceless. This was back before digital cameras. I wish I had some photos. Maybe I'll talk my friend into a road trip and go see them again. And get some photos this time. The home had many other fascinating works of art too.

The experience was amazing for another reason. This was a gathering point for musicians. Wander from room to room to listen, each had a circle of guitar, banjo, violin and other players jamming. With the music and art it was a heavenly experience.

I think any art in a warm and wonderful environment is far deeper than when displayed in a sterile environment.

JKJ

 

[Larry Mercier]

I think any art in a warm and wonderful environment is far deeper than when displayed in a sterile environment.

You are spot on again. That's one reason art in all formats is collected and displayed in galleries.

JKJ

.

I think any art in a warm and wonderful environmentv is far deeper than when displayed in a sterile environment.

I think you are spot on, again Ambience is one reason why art , in all categories, is displayed in galleries' and museums.

JKJ

 

[Larry Mercier]

*I realize that there are turners who do this just for fun/hobby and give their work to family & friends or charities. Also, some like making the functional smaller pieces that can be sold at farmers markets or craft festivals.

The French have an expression that is apropos to your observation: chacun a son gout. Translation: each to his own taste.

 

[Odie]

A theoretical question:

If we take a famous painting where nobody would dispute that it is art:

Would a lithograph of the same painting still be art?

=o=

 

[Jim Grieco]

That might be difficult to do, but IMHO, woodturning can traverse between art and not-art.....and, it all might depend on a personal POV that may or may not be shared by others.

It's a bit different than comparing a bad painting or sculpture to a good painting or sculpture....both are traditionally considered to be art.

A rock can be art, because in that universe of high-brow experts, some pseudo intellectual says it is.

I can tell you that some of my customers are art collectors and consider their purchases to be art.....while others are just wanting something to give their home something that represents their taste in home decor. From my POV, both are right and acceptable.....it's all a matter of personal perspective.

Jim.....for what it's worth......I consider your vase to be art.

=o=

Thank you for the complement!
My comment "Change my mind" was directed at that specific person who said I was bias. *Not sure what he was referring to (?)

Anyway, the only reason I asked my original question is because I do not see a lot if at all wood turnings in local art galleries or art shows in my area. Is it because the turners in my area do not want to deal with galleries or shows, or just are doing it for fun? Some pieces I have seen (via my club) are beautiful!
Or
The public and/or most gallery owners do not feel that wood is an art medium. If this is the case it is very sad. I understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there are people out there that love wood and consider it art. However the majority IMO look at it differently. As you stated, bad art is still art. It seems that the mediums for art is a short list and wood does not make that list. *There will always be someone who can prove me wrong but that is how I feel with the big picture.

 

[Jim Grieco]

Here's another personal story about an art gallery and wood. I went to a local gallery and asked about showing some of my work. Gallery owner didn't want it. I became great friends with a husband and wife where both were influential artists in our city. I helped him out quite a lot and he wanted to pay me for my time. I counter offered with an appeal for him to convince the gallery owner to satisfy a bucket list desire of mine. It was to have a show in a gallery. She relented and agreed to let me have a solo show. My friend curated the show, and I sold several pieces on opening night with a really nice crowd. The gallery owner changed her mind.

That is a wonderful story and congratulations on your success! Now if that could only happen more often then maybe our world (wood) would be looked on differently.

 

[Jim Grieco]

I met a friend of a friend who has two amazing wood sculptures in their house. One is a wall hanging, probably 2' across, 3' dimensional, carved.
The other is a table piece, also large and carved. To me those are art, and probably nearly priceless. I'd trade a car for one.

I think any art in a warm and wonderful environment is far deeper than when displayed in a sterile environment.

JKJ

I would love to have seen his work and that wood!

John, your replies are much deeper than my question. All I am asking is in general, does the public accept wood as art. My original question was more specific to turned wood art. In my area, I do not think so, which is why I asked the question here since there are exceptional turners all over the world.

Perhaps my question should have been: Why art galleries and art shows do not have more (if at all) wood art.

 

[Jim Grieco]

A theoretical question:

If we take a famous painting where nobody would dispute that it is art:
View attachment 68045
Would a lithograph of the same painting still be art?

=o=

That's deeper than where I was going but a good question.

 

[RichColvin]

In my view, it depends on the piece, location, reputation, etc. Do most people think of wood turned bowls as art? Probably not, in most cases. Your segmented vases? Moreso, I would think. Then there is true art in wood. These are made by artists and sculptors who use wood as their medium.

View attachment 68036View attachment 68040View attachment 68037View attachment 68038

I believe that first piece sold for $8,000.

I think pieces like these by Jean-Claude Charpignon are certainly art:





Jean-Claude is a current day ornamental turner living in France. These certainly look like Coburg Ivories, but they are wood..

 

[Michael Anderson]

I would say yes, the general public does see (some) woodturned objects as art. Whether someone is willing to pay equivalent prices for a wood turned object as glass or ceramic (for example) is up in the air.

Name recognition plays a huge part with galleries. If clients aren’t asking for someone’s work specifically, and/or they aren’t buying someone’s work, the gallery will likely drop the artist (regardless of medium). Storage space is money, and galleries are there to move objects. That doesn’t necessarily translate to something being perceived as art or not, of course.

I also suspect there is a generational issue as well. Many substantial collectors are on the upper end of the age spectrum, and artistic woodturning is still in its relative infancy. Wood has been used primarily for utilitarian purposes for ages, but other crafts (ceramic and glass) have been represented in the art scene for a long while (alongside utilitarian purposes). The studio craft movement post-WW2 played a huge role in the revamp and or initiation of ceramic/wood/textile/glass craft. It sounds morbid to say, but we’re really only at the timeline where the first generation (in general, obviously there were many more prior) of artistic woodturning pioneers are dying (Osolnik, Hogbin, Marsh, Stockdale, Sudol, to name a few). Think about how many generations of painters, potters, glass artists, etc… have represented their crafts in an artistic context. Woodturning will catch up.

 

[Marc Banka]

It’s art if it rises to that level.
One of the hold-ups in our medium is the high level of craft required to successfully turn anything, let alone something good enough to be called art.
I’ve not been able to understand why folks decide to try turning, after a successful career doing things that don’t involve tools, or working with one’s hands, turn a half dozen bowls, and come to this forum asking how much should I charge.
It’s unrealistic and distracts from the real goal, excellence.
I feel that trying to make what you think people are buying is but a lesson in frustration. Unless, of course you make $20 flea market stuff. Hardly art though.

I’ve heard the very same things as have others, about galleries not being so interested in turned wood. I was bummed.
But I looked my own work. Since I’m not an artist the way some are, but have good design instincts and am what some call a perfectionist, I decided to refine and improve. Not new tools and new tricks. Instead, a refinement of my methods, and my attention to detail.

Now, I’m still not producing museum pieces, I will though. I sell at just a few shows a year. My prices are high, especially compared with other turners who might be at the show. Often they sell more than me, and that’s fine. My goal is to make the very finest bowls, and sell them for fare prices. Some shoppers see my prices and keep walking, others want to talk about my art (their words), while some love to talk about it and break out the plastic.

And that’s enough for me. I continue this craft, knowing that I can be just as perfectionist as I want, because someone is going to absolutely love the art they bought from me.

 

[Kevin Weir]

After reading this thread, one issue arose in my mind, and that concerns the definition of art. I’ve struggled with this in the past. I suspect the definition will be different for different people. The closest I can come to verbalizing it is: Art is anything that can elicit an emotional response. When I look at the paintings of the Group of Seven, it’s obvious to me that this definition holds true for me. So when it comes to woodturning, if a customer looks at your work and remarks “Oh, this is so beautiful, I absolutely love it!”, I think they are seeing it as art whether they realize it or not.

There’s also the non-commital definition of art: I can’t define art, but I know it when I see it.

 

[Michael Anderson]

concerns the definition of art

Here is a fairly recent and related thread on “woodturning as art” that touches on several ways to define art. Really interesting.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Based on your initial framing of the question of $750 or more as a boundary for art vs utility (my interpretation) the answer would be no where I live for local markets and shows. That's far outside the discretionary spend limit for folks I see but, I don't see price as the determination of whether it's art or not. My buyers certainly consider it "art" and say so very often. Even if they don't or can't purchase it or even purchase it as a salad bowl. They call it art so - it is. They always appreciate the work, the shape, beauty and definitely consider it artwork. Even items I've sold for $50 or even less are often appreciated as artwork by the buyer. That's the way they describe them. Net, I don't think price is a definition limiter for art. It's the "making" of it by an individual with a vision or idea they translated via a medium.

Example - I make nutcrackers at Christmas some years. Each is unique, painted bright colors, cotton hair, working jaw, etc. Everyone that has one of them considers it an art piece and displays it at Christmas. Hobby Lobby also sells them for $9.99. I don't think anyone considers those artwork.

I also have pieces in a gallery that sell for far more than I could afford to pay for them and I'm sure the buyers consider those artwork.

 

[Patrick Crawford]

*I realize that there are turners who do this just for fun/hobby and give their work to family & friends or charities. Also, some like making the functional smaller pieces that can be sold at farmers markets or craft festivals.
I am not asking about myself!
This is a specific question:
Do you feel that the general public considers wood turning as art? Values of $750 up into the thousands
In my opinion based locally to where I live, the answer is no.
Occasionally my wife and I will do the local art walks or head on over to the affluent areas and tour the art galleries. Never do we see wood on a regular basis as an art form. Paintings, bronze sculptures, glass and even the occasional ceramic but no wood. Since we are in the SW part of the US (Arizona) on a rare occasion we will see a hollow form with Turquoise inlays.
Also, my wife makes bath products so we participate in many arts & crafts festivals. Any wood turner with exceptional work (not farmers market items) never does well. Even the carvers of fancy pieces say the same thing.
Again in my area, galleries demand high commissions (some up to 50%) so maybe this comes into play.

I am sure there are turners who do well with selling high priced turnings but is it the norm?

Having just gone through a three day Art Crawl in our region of British Columbia I would say the answer is complicated. I do both wood turning and scroll saw work and make both functional (e.g., small laminated bowls and cell phone holders) and artistic (e.g., basket illusion bowls and Christmas ornaments) pieces. Most people over the weekend seemed to separate craft and art pieces by how functional they were. The more functional the pieces were, the more they were classed as craft, even though some appear quite artistic (e.g., laminated bowls made up of multiple layers of different wood species). The less functional the pieces were, the more they were classed as art (e.g., basket illusion platters, especially if they came with presentation stands). Cost also appeared to be important with craft pieces being less expensive and art pieces being more expensive. Of course all of this varies from person to person.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

*I realize that there are turners who do this just for fun/hobby and give their work to family & friends or charities. Also, some like making the functional smaller pieces that can be sold at farmers markets or craft festivals.
I am not asking about myself!
This is a specific question:
Do you feel that the general public considers wood turning as art? Values of $750 up into the thousands
In my opinion based locally to where I live, the answer is no.
Occasionally my wife and I will do the local art walks or head on over to the affluent areas and tour the art galleries. Never do we see wood on a regular basis as an art form. Paintings, bronze sculptures, glass and even the occasional ceramic but no wood. Since we are in the SW part of the US (Arizona) on a rare occasion we will see a hollow form with Turquoise inlays.
Also, my wife makes bath products so we participate in many arts & crafts festivals. Any wood turner with exceptional work (not farmers market items) never does well. Even the carvers of fancy pieces say the same thing.
Again in my area, galleries demand high commissions (some up to 50%) so maybe this comes into play.

I am sure there are turners who do well with selling high priced turnings but is it the norm?

I think some people think of certain pieces as art. I can tell you that you will never win an art contest.

 

[John Leinemann]

Such a good question... woodturning originated as a means to create useful and utilitarian items, but that has been changing over the last number of decades. Can a utilitarian item be art? Yes... but it's really up to your audience. A painting will typically always be considered art because that is what it's meant to be. Woodturning can bridge between craft and art, which can make for interesting conversations. The creative person makes things and the beholder can decide how they feel about the object.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

The lofty goal of “Art” is to present a work that has meaning and a presence that transcends its making and its maker. A classic literary work does not have to claim the bounds of language. Quite the contrary, verbosity and a display of lingual prowess entertain few. The best approach is to please yourself.