Any and all advice - Need to move bug infested wood from MD to CO

[Alex Bradley]

Well, my step-mom has finally laid down the law that I need to clear out all of my Dad's remaining wood stash. The wood that is left (we gave a massive amount away) has all been stored inside for years and is stuff I would like to keep. The problem is that I need to move it from Maryland to Colorado.....and it for sure has bugs of all sorts (lots of sawdust piles to prove it). We are thinking of loading up a couple of U-haul trucks and driving the wood west. I know of a person in the Denver area that has a professional kiln that I can hire to kill the bugs when it arrives but wondering if we should do other things first (like fogging/bombing). Also worried about brining wood from humid MD to CO (I have had some cracking in pieces that I have already brought west even though a lot of the wood has been drying for 20+ years). Maybe kiln it in MD and seal before coming west? Would love any ideas from folks for moving large quantities of wood and how to deal with the bugs and humidity change. Really don't want to bring an invasive species across the country or loose my precious stash. Thank you!!!!!

 

[Isaac Fisher]

Transporting wood known to be bug-infested is a big no-no. Definitely kiln dry it before you move, and make sure it’s a thorough job. You might still have to surrender the whole lot at a port of entry inspection station. The agents there are very correctly skeptical of any wood or lumber that doesn’t have a lot of documentation.

Good news is you can skip the sealing. The wood will move a little with the humidity change, but after 20 years of drying it’s either checked or it’s not. Anything that hasn’t cracked yet isn’t going to.

 

[Brian Gustin]

...and it for sure has bugs of all sorts (lots of sawdust piles to prove it).

Sounds like a classic case of powder post beetle. very hard to eradicate without kiln or professional exterminators (if you are not careful you can carry them / their eggs into your house and infest your house! DAMHIK) Heating the wood all the way through to at least 130 degrees will typically kill them. Borax and similar can kill the larva & adults but the eggs can survive that. We had powder post problem from some unfinished wood furniture that was bought at a yard sale, first noticed the holes in some paperback books on shelves, then started finding sawdust piles (frass) at bottoms of doors, etc. bug bombs did nothing, had to get an exterminator in , and then the unfinished pieces were taken out and sanded, stained & finished. (Powder post bugs don't like finished woods) and that's where I learned a lot about those bugs.

No matter how nice the wood might be, I would never move it (or even bring it inside the house or shop) without first getting it treated or de-bugged... and I'd be paranoid about brushing off my clothes and shoes after being around/handling any of that wood.

Like was mentioned, I would check with state conservation department regarding rules on importing wood from another state (or even from neighboring county) because many states have such rules & restrictions to control or prevent the spread of invasive species.

 

[Brent@TurnRobust]

Some of those bugs are pretty hardy and kiln drying might not get to the temperature needed to eliminate them. Reach out to Rob Wallace in Iowa. He's a bug guy at the University and avid woodturner. You can find his contact info on the member's directory on the main AAW site. Andy Chen, who frequents this site, may also be a good source of info. He's a retired bug guy from a prominent university.

 

[Dave Landers]

Here's some regulations, because rules are fun: https://www.nationalplantboard.org/...os_rules_and_regulations_summary_04272022.pdf

 

[Alex Bradley]

Sounds like a classic case of powder post beetle. very hard to eradicate without kiln or professional exterminators (if you are not careful you can carry them / their eggs into your house and infest your house! DAMHIK) Heating the wood all the way through to at least 130 degrees will typically kill them. Borax and similar can kill the larva & adults but the eggs can survive that. We had powder post problem from some unfinished wood furniture that was bought at a yard sale, first noticed the holes in some paperback books on shelves, then started finding sawdust piles (frass) at bottoms of doors, etc. bug bombs did nothing, had to get an exterminator in , and then the unfinished pieces were taken out and sanded, stained & finished. (Powder post bugs don't like finished woods) and that's where I learned a lot about those bugs.

No matter how nice the wood might be, I would never move it (or even bring it inside the house or shop) without first getting it treated or de-bugged... and I'd be paranoid about brushing off my clothes and shoes after being around/handling any of that wood.

Like was mentioned, I would check with state conservation department regarding rules on importing wood from another state (or even from neighboring county) because many states have such rules & restrictions to control or prevent the spread of invasive species.

We have clothing moths in our house that have been a pain to mitigate. Your bug problem sounds much much worse! Sympathies to you for having to go through that!!

 

[Alex Bradley]

Some of those bugs are pretty hardy and kiln drying might not get to the temperature needed to eliminate them. Reach out to Rob Wallace in Iowa. He's a bug guy at the University and avid woodturner. You can find his contact info on the member's directory on the main AAW site. Andy Chen, who frequents this site, may also be a good source of info. He's a retired bug guy from a prominent university.

Big thanks Trent. Note sent to Rob. Will do the same with Andy.

 

[Dean Center]

You don't want to be the one who brings the next 1000 Cankers Disease to Colorado. Good for you. You're thinking about bugs, but what about fungal, bacterial and viral diseases? Will these be eradicated by kiln drying or bagging with pesticides? Different species of wood have different disease possibilities. Not a simple problem, but manageable if you're determined. And thorough.

 

[robo hippy]

It is difficult to know what is worth saving and what should be burned. Rob should be a great help. I have had a bunch of wood collections that I have looked at and passed up because of the powder post beetles.

robo hippy

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Handling a small amount of wood can be done by putting the wood inside black contractor's trash bags and closing in the trunk of a dark colored car on a summer day. Use a digital thermometer to make sure the temps hit 140 for at least an hour. Not possible in all areas.

The USDA has regulations for the treatment of wood brought into the country. My local grocery store sells white birch firewood from Estonia. (imported gormet firewood?)

Here are the rules for Canadian firewood: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/plant_health/2015/fs-heat-treat-firewood.pdf

 

[Brian Gustin]

Handling a small amount of wood can be done by putting the wood inside black contractor's trash bags and closing in the trunk of a dark colored car on a summer day. Use a digital thermometer to make sure the temps hit 140 for at least an hour. Not possible in all areas.

You'd think so, but the temp thing means the wood has to get to that temperature *all the way through* which would take considerably more than an hour - the thicker/bigger the pieces , the longer it would take.. I attempted to do just that with a small cabinet infested with powder post beetles. Interior of car never got over 126 degrees on hottest day of the year in full sun (and it was dark color car, dark interior) Using an infrared non-contact thermometer to check the wood, surface temperatures made it up to 102 degrees after 8 hours sitting in the back of that car... which taught me that ambient temperatures do not translate well to surface temperatures of the object within.

 

[DON FRANK]

Brian is correct about the internal temp. It takes about 160 degrees for an extended period in a kiln to get the internal temp up to the killing temp. Since it is turning wood I'm wondering if you could "pond" it. Buy one or two of the big blue barrels that have lids. Put the wood in and fill it to the top with water and let it set for a week. I have done this method for green wood and it doesn't hurt the turning quality of the wood at all. They will hold in there for years. The logging industry has ponded trees as a way of reducing checking etc for hundreds of years. I'm not sure of the effects on wood that is already partially or fully dry. I'm reasonably sure that the lack of oxygen would kill any critters in the wood though. Let it air dry afterwards and seal it with paraffin.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

You'd think so, but the temp thing means the wood has to get to that temperature *all the way through* which would take considerably more than an hour - the thicker/bigger the pieces , the longer it would take.. I attempted to do just that with a small cabinet infested with powder post beetles. Interior of car never got over 126 degrees on hottest day of the year in full sun (and it was dark color car, dark interior) Using an infrared non-contact thermometer to check the wood, surface temperatures made it up to 102 degrees after 8 hours sitting in the back of that car... which taught me that ambient temperatures do not translate well to surface temperatures of the object within.

As I said, not possible in all areas. I also said for a small amount of wood. Further some of what you say makes no sense. 126 inside the car but after hours, the surface of the cabinet wood was only 102 Sounds extremely improbable.. It does take time for the temperature to penetrate thick wood. But one inch cabinet wood, not hardly. If I put a piece of black rubber on the ground for an hour in the summer sun, I will have a bare spot in the lawn. . I had the interior of a dark gray mitsubishi get hot enough to melt microcrystalline wax that had a melting temp of 154 degrees. It also depends on whether the car is parked on fresh asphalt or other surfaces. This outfit actually did measurements on several cars:

"The trunk of cars can get as hot as 130 to 150 degrees when owners park cars in direct sunlight with a temperature range of 80 to 95 degrees within an hour without an active cooling agent. It can be higher if the temperature is higher and vice versa. " https://motorandwheels.com/do-trunks-of-cars-get-hot/

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Brian is correct about the internal temp. It takes about 160 degrees for an extended period in a kiln to get the internal temp up to the killing temp. Since it is turning wood I'm wondering if you could "pond" it. Buy one or two of the big blue barrels that have lids. Put the wood in and fill it to the top with water and let it set for a week. I have done this method for green wood and it doesn't hurt the turning quality of the wood at all. They will hold in there for years. The logging industry has ponded trees as a way of reducing checking etc for hundreds of years. I'm not sure of the effects on wood that is already partially or fully dry. I'm reasonably sure that the lack of oxygen would kill any critters in the wood though. Let it air dry afterwards and seal it with paraffin.

internal temperature of a skid of 2x4"s or stickered 2x4's? Wood of course has a low r value. but he was talking about a cabinet with inch thick wood in a 126 degree car all day and says the surface of the wood (not depth) was only 102. Getting heat to the middle of a skid of closely stacked lumber or a giant log is a different matter than a thin cabinet..

 

[Brian Gustin]

internal temperature of a skid of 2x4"s or stickered 2x4's? Wood of course has a low r value. but he was talking about a cabinet with inch thick wood in a 126 degree car all day and says the surface of the wood (not depth) was only 102. Getting heat to the middle of a skid of closely stacked lumber or a giant log is a different matter than a thin cabinet..

The point I was making is that Ambient air temperature in a hot car, no matter WHAT that temperature may be, does NOT translate to internal temperature of a solid object within that environment. So you could put something in an oven at 250 degrees - A Cast Iron pan will eventually equalize with that relatively quickly, and reach 250 degrees itself.

Meanwhile a wood object (much less mass and density) might take MUCH longer to reach a stable temperature of 250 degrees all the way through (Which is pretty much the point at which a spark can ignite it). It's basically how a kiln works - Kiln drying can take weeks - It can take several days for a piece of wood to completely normalize to the environment it is brought into - For example, a piece of 4/4 lumber that was outdoors all winter and has hit 15-20 degrees all the way through , and then brought into a 40 degree shop can still be well below 40 degrees even after several days. (I know this from personal experience... Still had a bit of frozen snow stuck to the wood 3 days later... DESPITE said snow being exposed to ambient 40 degree shop temperature which is where my thermostat is set when I'm not in the shop.)

I imagine you could pack the trunk at 160 degrees full of your logs (or even 6 inch thick bowl blanks) and leave it for a week, and I'd bet you'd still never see the center of the log hit 160 degrees.

I'm saying, it may be a great idea in theory, but the science of it doesn't prove out.

From Britannica on Wood thermal properties:
Wood exhibits a low thermal conductivity (high heat-insulating capacity) compared with materials such as metals, marble, glass, and concrete. Thermal conductivity is highest in the axial direction and increases with density and moisture content; thus, light, dry woods are better insulators.

In other words, wood resists temperature change because it does not conduct heat well (unlike cast iron)

 

[Perry Hilbert]

The point I was making is that Ambient air temperature in a hot car, no matter WHAT that temperature may be, does NOT translate to internal temperature of a solid object within that environment. So you could put something in an oven at 250 degrees - A Cast Iron pan will eventually equalize with that relatively quickly, and reach 250 degrees itself.

Meanwhile a wood object (much less mass and density) might take MUCH longer to reach a stable temperature of 250 degrees all the way through (Which is pretty much the point at which a spark can ignite it). It's basically how a kiln works - Kiln drying can take weeks - It can take several days for a piece of wood to completely normalize to the environment it is brought into - For example, a piece of 4/4 lumber that was outdoors all winter and has hit 15-20 degrees all the way through , and then brought into a 40 degree shop can still be well below 40 degrees even after several days. (I know this from personal experience... Still had a bit of frozen snow stuck to the wood 3 days later... DESPITE said snow being exposed to ambient 40 degree shop temperature which is where my thermostat is set when I'm not in the shop.)

I imagine you could pack the trunk at 160 degrees full of your logs (or even 6 inch thick bowl blanks) and leave it for a week, and I'd bet you'd still never see the center of the log hit 160 degrees.

I'm saying, it may be a great idea in theory, but the science of it doesn't prove out.

From Britannica on Wood thermal properties:
Wood exhibits a low thermal conductivity (high heat-insulating capacity) compared with materials such as metals, marble, glass, and concrete. Thermal conductivity is highest in the axial direction and increases with density and moisture content; thus, light, dry woods are better insulators.

In other words, wood resists temperature change because it does not conduct heat well (unlike cast iron)

Wood has a thermal conductivity 6 times higher than foam insulation per inch. r value of soft woods per inch averages 1.4, r value of hardwoods averages .71 per inch. Your quote is obviously comparing wood to high conductivity of metals. We are not talking about metals. we are talking about low r value wood (most likely hard woods for the OP.) placed in a 150 degree car trunk for six or more hours.

Further I don't give a crap about 160 degrees in the center. We only need to reach 140 degrees for 30 minutes to an hour to meet USDA regs for killing pests in imported lumber.

i offered a solution for a SMALL quantity of wood, and people jump all over me like we are trying to handle a tractor trailer load of stacked 12 x 12 timbers. I didn't suggest it for 4 ft thick stacks of lumber. or for a giant sequoia log. Geesh. As I said, I know the trunk of our Mitsubishi got up beyond 154 degrees because it melted a 3 pound block of microcrystalline wax that was contained in a corrugated cardboard box..

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

Wood has a thermal conductivity 6 times higher than foam insulation per inch. r value of soft woods per inch averages 1.4, r value of hardwoods averages .71 per inch. Your quote is obviously comparing wood to high conductivity of metals. We are not talking about metals. we are talking about low r value wood (most likely hard woods for the OP.) placed in a 150 degree car trunk for six or more hours.

Further I don't give a crap about 160 degrees in the center. We only need to reach 140 degrees for 30 minutes to an hour to meet USDA regs for killing pests in imported lumber.

i offered a solution for a SMALL quantity of wood, and people jump all over me like we are trying to handle a tractor trailer load of stacked 12 x 12 timbers. I didn't suggest it for 4 ft thick stacks of lumber. or for a giant sequoia log. Geesh. As I said, I know the trunk of our Mitsubishi got up beyond 154 degrees because it melted a 3 pound block of microcrystalline wax that was contained in a corrugated cardboard box..

In her post she did say they would have to rent two Uhaul trucks to move the wood.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

In her post she did say they would have to rent two Uhaul trucks to move the wood.

Yea indeed, I never said it would work for her scale, did I? Although a box on a U-Haul can et pretty hot in the sun. It would depend on how thick the wood is and whether packed tight or with air passages through it. If she is going to pack it into a fairly closed container, fumigation will work. Powder post beetles are also killed by freezing temps. Wrong time of year for that, but doable in winter.

 

[Bob Sheppard]

Having had to deal with an infestation of invasive spotted lanternflies the past 2 years, I don't know why anyone would risk transporting insects to a new region where they don't belong. IMO, however valuable the stash of wood may be, it's not worth the chance of bringing bugs to a new locale, unless you're absolutely sure that the wood is free of them.