Rich, you make a good point. I don't think it's something unique to wood turning. I've taught fly fishing for small stream trout and I doubt 10% of those that started are doing it now.
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An observation about newbie woodturners.......
- Thread starter Odie
- Start date
And.....many of those who are no longer active can "talk the talk", but don't "walk the walk"......same as for many woodturners, too!
We hear a lot about getting a "mentor"......but, unless you choose well, or flat out get lucky, that can backfire on a new turner who just wants to learn a few basics!
-----odie-----
Having *time* and money are clearly considerations. I think, however, that the turning community needs to make more effort to show that bowls and hollow forms (and pens) are only a small portion what is possible on a lathe. There are so many other possibilities which receive much less attention or mention. Some are complex or difficult, but many more are not. And many of those may require less time and material. As I remarked earlier in this thread, I rarely turn bowls or hollow forms, and pens not at all. At least for me, trying a wide variety of turning ideas is crucial to maintaining interest in turning. Trying to make something entirely different, or using a new method, can help keep turning fresh and interesting. I simply cannot make the same sort of thing over and over. My goal is to enjoy what I am doing, following paths which look interesting.
Interesting topic Odie. I initially turned parts for bureaus, etc on a cheap Craftsman lathe then got a little more serious when I got a Jet Mini cheap. Now I have a PM, but do use the Jet for pens, etc.
If I can get some logs or blanks I do turn the occasional bowl but mostly focus on segmented turning now. I find it more interesting and easier to find wood since you can use stock from a lumber yard.
I can’t speak for anyone else but maybe younger folks get bored turning exclusively and go back and forth between turning and woodworking.
We also need to look at the time and money factor. Most younger folks have families and work so time is limited and money may be scarce to invest in decent equipment in addition to all of the other tools needed.
I’m not sure how many start exclusively turning. I think you would need a friend or club to get you interested. Most likely folks start WWing then drift to turning. You can find articles in FWing where parts of a chair or bureau have turning components so that may introduce some to turn a bit more serious.
If I can get some logs or blanks I do turn the occasional bowl but mostly focus on segmented turning now. I find it more interesting and easier to find wood since you can use stock from a lumber yard.
I can’t speak for anyone else but maybe younger folks get bored turning exclusively and go back and forth between turning and woodworking.
We also need to look at the time and money factor. Most younger folks have families and work so time is limited and money may be scarce to invest in decent equipment in addition to all of the other tools needed.
I’m not sure how many start exclusively turning. I think you would need a friend or club to get you interested. Most likely folks start WWing then drift to turning. You can find articles in FWing where parts of a chair or bureau have turning components so that may introduce some to turn a bit more serious.
Perhaps someday we will see the Shop Class back in the Junior High and High Schools with some manufacturing coming back to our shores. Trade schools are growing in popularity as these graduates can usually have a job lined up before they graduate. The typical lathe and mill will most likely be replaced with CNC and 3-D printers. For several decades the schools were pushing computer science and programming as the next big market to be educated in, within a decade or two this market was being outsourced to India and China. Most schools traded their shop class funds for computer technologies. In the industrial, biorefinery, pharma and food processing industries these markets are looking to replace millions of people that are retiring over the next couple of decades. The maker and hacker spaces are exposing large numbers of people of all ages to the technologies that will be used in all of these industries in the coming decades. Many of the younger potential turners these days have a broader vision of what there is in the market place to entertain their interests with, the internet exposes these young minds to the many possibilities that are out there. The big picture is the potential many of these young people are experiencing in these multi-trade work spaces. Many of these facilities are working on state of the art projects where the young team members are building complex projects where the team members build individual components which go into the main project. In many instances a wood lathe is still a practical machine to use in a number of components. A wood lathe can turn a large variety of materials whereas a metal lathe can get gummed up turning some of these materials. Wood is one of those materials that is green and renewable, perhaps the light bulb will illuminate and the potential in this old craft will be recognized by more people.
And.....many of those who are no longer active can "talk the talk", but don't "walk the walk"......same as for many woodturners, too!
We hear a lot about getting a "mentor"......but, unless you choose well, or flat out get lucky, that can backfire on a new turner who just wants to learn a few basics!
-----odie-----
Odie my view of mentoring may be different than yours. Mentors do not force their methods of turning on the student but show them how to do what they want to with lessons on the basics and then as the student advances only coaching to achieve the goals of the student. That relationship can end anytime in the process and hopefully end up with lifetime sharing and friendship.
I'm sure this is true to some extent, Gerald.....
How many times have we heard from various respected sources that they have had to "un-learn" people who have been coached into practices that are an impediment?
-----odie-----
Interesting thread Odie--I started turning about 8 years ago--the hospital tried to kill me, and they almost succeeded- they put me in a coma for 3 months and this caused a lot of issues, the main one being I lost all nerve function from about mid-calf down to the toes in both legs--took me 2 years to learn how to walk again--with braces I have to wear for the rest of my life--when I was recovering, a friend of mine came and visited me an said "I just took a class on turning pens on a lathe Don, and I think you would be good at it and like it,I'm going to buy a lathe today, why don't you come with me" well long story short I bought a lathe too and have dove in deep since then. I don't have a mentor unfortunately. I am a member of a local AAW chapter club, and even though we have a mentoring 'option' where you can come to a meeting early and one of the members will work with you on something particular-it just doesn't work very well--I've tried several things and never got to where I could do what I wanted help with. I've learned more from this forum, just reading it and asking occasional questions.
But....to my point-prior to my hospital experience, I probably wouldn't have had the time to have dedicated to turning--to learn and teach myself-as I would have needed--now since I can't play golf anymore, or hunt and fish like I used to, I have a lot of time that I put into woodworking and learning as best I can--I can tell you as an example that books are not good for say teaching table saw safety--I learned the hard way that you should never reach past the blade on your table saw-and I got bit, thank God lightly, on my thumb by reaching past the blade and grabbing a piece of wood that I was ripping down to smaller stock as it was coming loose from the main stock when the through cut happened---DOH!! I guess long story short I am saying that it takes a lot of time that a lot of folks don't have, and it is tuff to find a mentor nowdays....Just another 2 cents, which won't get you anything at all for sure......
But....to my point-prior to my hospital experience, I probably wouldn't have had the time to have dedicated to turning--to learn and teach myself-as I would have needed--now since I can't play golf anymore, or hunt and fish like I used to, I have a lot of time that I put into woodworking and learning as best I can--I can tell you as an example that books are not good for say teaching table saw safety--I learned the hard way that you should never reach past the blade on your table saw-and I got bit, thank God lightly, on my thumb by reaching past the blade and grabbing a piece of wood that I was ripping down to smaller stock as it was coming loose from the main stock when the through cut happened---DOH!! I guess long story short I am saying that it takes a lot of time that a lot of folks don't have, and it is tuff to find a mentor nowdays....Just another 2 cents, which won't get you anything at all for sure......
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My club has about twenty mentors and I am one. I prefer to teach more advanced topics, but I have done a little mentoring on basics. The only times that I have seen a new turner needing go back to square one is when they were either self taught sometimes with the"aid" of suspect YouTube videos or had a mentor who didn't know much more than the student.
Generally, an instructor will say that there are many "right" ways to do something, but the purpose of the class is to show one more way ... sort of like when I was in the Army: there were three ways to do something ... the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way. So the question is, "which way will you do it?" I'm sure that you know the answer.
Great story, Don......thanks for sharing that!
We share some similar experiences.......Started turning prior to having a computer back in the early 80's.....and some of the books and early professional videos were a great help passing through the basics, to advanced techniques and processes. Although I longed to take some advanced classes at CSUSA during those times, I was not able to attend. I now feel I am much better off to have struggled, and found my own solutions and refinements for many things involving woodturning. Some of these self-made solutions are quite unique to me, and because of that, I am thankful to have traveled the path I did......
-----odie-----
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I have taught a fair amount of intermediates and advance beginners.
I don’t think I ever encountered anyone who had been taught bad habits. The bad habits were the result of self teaching or incomplete learning.
However there are people teaching and certainly posting videos who have not learned enough themselves to teach others so there may be some who choose an unqualified teacher. Most clubs vet their mentors. The craft schools vet their instructors.
One example of mislearning:
At MD Hall for the Creative arts I ran into the student if another instructor who was struggling with a bowl.
I asked if wanted some help. His problem - he was sharpening his gouge upside down and trying to cut with a jointed edge (jointing the edge is common first step in sharpening a new gouge). This guy struggling using the tool with the jointed edge sort of a scraping tool.
He told me”this is the way Joe taught us”. He was so sure of it.
I told him “I know how Joe teaches and he did not teach you to sharpen the gouge thus way you probably saw Joe do this before he sharpened the tool.”
It took me a long time to convince him he had missed part of the instruction. After I showed him how to sharpen the gouge and he began using it - a light went on and he - this is like the tool was working in class.
He was so sure he was doing the way Joe had shown him.
All,
Great discussion! I have now taken workshops from Mark Sillay and Jimmy Clewes. I have also spent quite a few days with the senior members of my club, and many days with my mentor Joe. I found their instruction to be amazingly consistent. They all focused on technique, form, sharp tools, and safety. Yes, their specific techniques have minor differences but their similarities out weigh any differences. So I am firmly in the camp of senior folks mentoring the newbies.
That said, I also believe newbies should save up their money and invest in classes. It is money well spent. I tried learning on my own, and for me that was a very frustrating experience. Because I couldn’t afford several expensive workshops, I sought out a mentor. That approach coupled with a coupled with a couple of workshops seems to work for me.
Great discussion! I have now taken workshops from Mark Sillay and Jimmy Clewes. I have also spent quite a few days with the senior members of my club, and many days with my mentor Joe. I found their instruction to be amazingly consistent. They all focused on technique, form, sharp tools, and safety. Yes, their specific techniques have minor differences but their similarities out weigh any differences. So I am firmly in the camp of senior folks mentoring the newbies.
That said, I also believe newbies should save up their money and invest in classes. It is money well spent. I tried learning on my own, and for me that was a very frustrating experience. Because I couldn’t afford several expensive workshops, I sought out a mentor. That approach coupled with a coupled with a couple of workshops seems to work for me.
Odie, I'm 86 this year and started turning about 2 to 3 years ago. Reason?, my wife said she would like to have a Spinning Wheel, and I said " I can make one of those". So that became my first turning project. Previous experience was High School wood shop in 1947 turning the four legs for a stool. BUT I have had my Craftsman table saw since 1962 and have worked on wood projects ever since. All the equipment was there in my garage shop except a lathe. So after coming up with a lathe, I managed to build her a Spinning Wheel full of wood turnings and assorted spindles. It looks great setting in the living room. Since then its been peppermills, yo-yos, small bowls, tree ornaments and quite a few segmented and staved bowls in all types of wood. Do I enjoy it, yes. Do I stick to it constantly, No. When a daughter wants a bench, I make it. When the wife wants a porch swing, I make it. I don't see that as going away from the turning hobby, its just that there are many more interests in Woodworking besides just turning. Each one I try has my interest for awhile. Have to run now, I have a piece of Black Locust waiting in the lathe. Geo.
John Jordan
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Everything my friend Al has said is on the money. You don't have to have lots of time, but one needs to concentrate on one thing until they've gained those skills, Trying everything when you're new is the kiss of death. Get some green wood and a bowl gouge and a detail gouge-no more. Rough turn bowls until it takes you minutes instead of hours.
And Odie, my embellished pieces are pretty good before mutilation.
John
And Odie, my embellished pieces are pretty good before mutilation.
John