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40/40 Grind Using the Varigrind Jig?

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I made a platform for my jet sharpener with a cbn wheel by mounting a piece of cutting board plastic to the flat knife sharpening attachment. It worked pretty good but the wheel rotation was picking up the tool while I was sharpening so I opened the speed controller and swapped the leads going to the motor and reversed the rotation. Works a lot better with the bowl sharpening jig as well.
image.jpg
 

Dennis J Gooding

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I'd like to get back to the topic of using the Tormek with its gouge jig to produce a 40 or 45 degree grind on a gouge - specifically a 1/4" gouge in this case. I have tried various settings using the Tormek jig and don't get the profile that seems to be correct. The resulting profile I get seems to be a "modified Ellsworth grind"; not quite the Ellsworth grind but not quite the desired result either. Could someone who has used the Tormek to produce a grind similar to the 40/40 grind post a picture of the result? The Tormek gouge jig is excellent for producing a razor sharp Ellsworth grind but I'm challenged to produce the other correctly.

Randy, the operation of the Tormec jig is almost the same as the Varigrind jig. (Their operation could be made the same if the gouge protrusion for the Tormec jig were adjusted so that the tip of the gouge is in a line with the side-to-side rocking axis of the Tormec.) Therefore, any given setting of a Varigrind jig can be matched by an appropriate setting of the Tormec parameters (within their respective ranges of adjustment). In one of the above posts, John Lucas reported success in reasonably matching the 40/40 grind on a spindle gouge, and posted a picture of the jig setting that he used. I printed his picture and measured the angle between the centerline of the gouge and the axis about which the gouge swings during sharpening. It turned out to be about 15 degrees. Therefore, if you adjusted the combination of gouge protrusion and arm angle of the Tormec so that: (a) the angle between the gouge axis and the rocking axis is 15 degrees and (b) the tip of the gouge is in line with the rocking axis, and (c) adjust the slide to obtain the desired nose angle, you would achieve an equivalent setting to John’s.

That said, I personally do not believe that the exact values of any of the first two parameters is critical to success. They do not determine the shape of the grind, but merely put some constraints on it. The end result depends far more on how much is ground where. You mention getting an Ellsworth type of grind. That sounds like you are grinding too far back on the wings. The pictures I have seen for the 40/40 grind indicate a flute length about equal to the diameter of the gouge.
 
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I will try to decrease the exposure of the gouge from the jig because I think that is my understanding of your post. However, it seems to me that the motion of the gouge that the jig creates is a problem and, at least partially, why the "wings" still exist to some extent. I'll experiment over the next few days and post a picture of the result. So far, I would say that the result I've gotten isn't what it should be.
 

Bill Boehme

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I will try to decrease the exposure of the gouge from the jig because I think that is my understanding of your post. However, it seems to me that the motion of the gouge that the jig creates is a problem and, at least partially, why the "wings" still exist to some extent. I'll experiment over the next few days and post a picture of the result. So far, I would say that the result I've gotten isn't what it should be.

Paraphrasing what Dennis said (hopefully correctly) ... the jig only controls the angle that the tool meets the grindstone. The shape is entirely up to the person doing the sharpening. For example you can have a gouge with short wings or long wings both from the same jig settings, but if you spend a lot of time grinding on the wings they will be longer.
 
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Actually I did understand that and didn’t rotate the gouge anywhere near all the way on either side. There really aren’t “wings” but it has an unusual shape that is different than it appears it should be from a number of videos I’ve viewed as well as actual gouges. So, to clarify, I believe the angle was correct. It was the shape of the grind that wasn't.
 
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Bill Boehme

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Actually I did understand that and didn’t rotate the gouge anywhere near all the way on either side. There really aren’t “wings” but it has an unusual shape that is different than it appears it should be from a number of videos I’ve viewed as well as actual gouges. So, to clarify, I believe the angle was correct. It was the shape of the grind that wasn't.

You don't have to rotate the tool if you hold it in one spot too long the shape will definitely become "funny".
 

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Actually I did understand that and didn’t rotate the gouge anywhere near all the way on either side. There really aren’t “wings” but it has an unusual shape that is different than it appears it should be from a number of videos I’ve viewed as well as actual gouges. So, to clarify, I believe the angle was correct. It was the shape of the grind that wasn't.

When using a varigrind or similar jig you have to keep rolling the jig&gouge so that the contact point of the edge with the wheel is continually changing.
If The edge stays in one spot a concave will be ground in to the edge.
About the only grind that will not work is one with a concave on the edge.

Using a platform the wheel stops grinding when you hold the gouge in place because it rests on the platform.
When using a jig the gouge rests on the wheel so it keeps grinding. The shape is created by moving the edge over the wheel.

The two sharpening mistakes I see the most are:
A dip in the nose created by keeping the nose on the wheel too long
A dip in the wing created by holding the wing in one place against the wheel.
 
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Dennis J Gooding

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Bill, I thought I had made a mistake once before, but it turned out I was wrong. ;)

Al, an interesting point about the difference between jig and platform grinding.

Randy, It often is useful in cases like this to do a “reboot” on the misshaped gouge. You will find it demonstrated in a video somewhere, but basically goes as follows:
Using a platform, grind the nose only of the gouge to the desired angle.
Mark the gouge at the upper extremity of the desired flute. (I am assuming that you have a picture of the desired side profile.)
With the platform tipped down so that only the upper edge is used, lay the gouge upside down on the platform and, starting at the mark, drag the gouge down gently against the wheel to the tip. Repeat as need to achieve the desired side profile with the cutting edge blunt everywhere except perhaps at the very tip of the gouge.
Having rebooted the gouge, apply your jig or sharpening rote very carefully to just eliminate the bluntness everywhere along the edge.
 
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Does this look at least close to what a 40 or 45 degree grind should look? I ended up regrinding the result from using my Tormek gouge jig. I reground it using just the Tormek small platform that I use to grind scrapers. I still don't understand how to get that result with the Tormek gouge jig though. The flat rest is OK, but a little iffy and I doubt I'd duplicate the same result each time with that method.unnamed-1.jpg
 

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The angle of your shot might be deceiving, but it doesn't appear to be like the 40/40 grind. Here is a post by John Lucas in an old thread that shows his solution: 40/40 grind using Vari-Grind
One minor correction ... he calls it a Wolverine jig.

Here is an interesting article on making a jig used in conjunction with the platform to produce the 40/40 grind: Platform jig for 40/40 grind
 

hockenbery

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Does this look at least close to what a 40 or 45 degree grind should look? I ended up regrinding the result from using my Tormek gouge jig. I reground it using just the Tormek small platform that I use to grind scrapers. I still don't understand how to get that result with the Tormek gouge jig though. The flat rest is OK, but a little iffy and I doubt I'd duplicate the same result each time with that method.View attachment 28619

Cindy Drozda has a nice YouTube video showing how to sharpen a 40/40 using a platform.
You can see what the end result should be. It can be used to try and find the setting in the tormek jig.

You could grind a gouge using Cindy’s instruction and then use the best side to set the tormek jig.

She also explains and diagrams the geometry needed to get the wing.
The nose has to make an angle with the wheel of 140 degrees to make a 40 degree bevel
When the gouge is rolled over in the jig the sidewall of the flute has to be at 140 degrees to the wheel to get a 40 degree bevel on the wing.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_KDSIDAtGc
 
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Thanks for the link. However as strange as this may seem, I don't own a regular grinder. I rarely use one. Since I started turning about 2 years ago, I initially used carbides, then have been able to sharpen my bowl gouges and scrapers on the Tormek (and now with the diamond wheel, at least my round carbides also). I will experiment with the Tormek gouge jig, but the profile that it has yielded isn't the one shown in the video, regardless of gouge jig settings. I can possibly duplicate the freehand sharpening on the Tormek platform, but sharpening a gouge like that freehand on the Tormek is a little challenging. I will see what happens.
 

hockenbery

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can possibly duplicate the freehand sharpening on the Tormek platform, but sharpening a gouge like that freehand on the Tormek is a little challenging. I will see what happens.

Maybe you have the option to sharpen with the wheel coming toward the platform.

If I were using the platform to sharpen a 40/40 on a tormek, I would do it with the wheel coming toward the platform.
 
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Maybe you have the option to sharpen with the wheel coming toward the platform.

If I were using the platform to sharpen a 40/40 on a tormek, I would do it with the wheel coming toward the platform.

I have tried to make that work but the mount for the tool rest is set up vertically and, so far, I've not been able to make that work. Maybe I'm missing something and someone who has used the Tormek gouge jig to sharpen a bowl gouge at 40 degrees could tell me what it is. I haven't been able to find anything on YouTube either. It works extremely well for the Ellsworth grind though.
 

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I have tried to make that work but the mount for the tool rest is set up vertically and, so far, I've not been able to make that work. Maybe I'm missing something and someone who has used the Tormek gouge jig to sharpen a bowl gouge at 40 degrees could tell me what it is. I haven't been able to find anything on YouTube either. It works extremely well for the Ellsworth grind though.

Using the vertical mount for the 40/40 grind is probably awkward, but it might help if you are able to remove the tool from the handle. I haven't tried it myself. I've only used the platform in the vertical mount for simpler situations where using the horizontal mount isn't practical when I'm not able to keep the wheel from pulling the tool off the rest.

If I had an extra bowl gouge lying around I might try coming up with a jig setting that approximates the 40/40 grind, but I really haven't felt like I need a tool with that grind.
 
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Does this look at least close to what a 40 or 45 degree grind should look? I ended up regrinding the result from using my Tormek gouge jig. I reground it using just the Tormek small platform that I use to grind scrapers. I still don't understand how to get that result with the Tormek gouge jig though. The flat rest is OK, but a little iffy and I doubt I'd duplicate the same result each time with that method.

Maybe it is your flute shape. If I recall, a 40/40 grind should be applied to a V-shape or parabolic flute
 
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Maybe it is your flute shape. If I recall, a 40/40 grind should be applied to a V-shape or parabolic flute

Don’t know anything about that. It’s a regular bowl gouge and should be able to be sharpened with a result similar to those I see online. Just have to keep working on it. I have no use for a regular grinder so that isn’t something I’m interested in buying just for this one tool. Before I do that I’ll just get along without a 40 degree bowl gouge just as I have for the first 2 years I have turned. There are other ways to work that I am finding will give me good results so a gouge with this grind isn’t a necessity.
 

Bill Boehme

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Don’t know anything about that. It’s a regular bowl gouge and should be able to be sharpened with a result similar to those I see online. Just have to keep working on it. I have no use for a regular grinder so that isn’t something I’m interested in buying just for this one tool. Before I do that I’ll just get along without a 40 degree bowl gouge just as I have for the first 2 years I have turned. There are other ways to work that I am finding will give me good results so a gouge with this grind isn’t a necessity.

The bowl gouge that you have pictured above has a U shaped flute. Stu Batty is very emphatic in saying that the 40/40 grind will NOT work with that flute shape ... It must be an elliptical or parabolic shape... what we typically call a V flute. Here is a video where he discusses the 40/40 grind:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N7BjRcSDurM
 
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Using the vertical mount for the 40/40 grind is probably awkward, but it might help if you are able to remove the tool from the handle. I haven't tried it myself. I've only used the platform in the vertical mount for simpler situations where using the horizontal mount isn't practical when I'm not able to keep the wheel from pulling the tool off the rest.

If I had an extra bowl gouge lying around I might try coming up with a jig setting that approximates the 40/40 grind, but I really haven't felt like I need a tool with that grind.

Not a problem. I'm not locked into the 40 degree grind as I have had great success with almost all things with the Ellsworth grind. I do find it difficult to get catch free results on the inside of bowls (especially small bowls) with the Ellsworth grind gouges so I currently use a combination of other tools I have. While I start out with a HSS gouge I generally do most of the rough inside bowl turning with my Easy Wood Finisher (round cutter) and my Michael Hunter Vicerory; mostly the Easy Wood tool though. That gets me close to where I want to be. Then I have been practicing with the scrapers I own, including one I turned into a NRS. That usually gets me to the a point that my sanding is acceptable to me (probably not like a pro's finish before sanding but still OK for me). So, if nothing else, I can turn the new gouge into an Ellsworth grind and just have an extra small gouge.
 
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Don't know enough about gouges except buy high quality, hard steel versions. So, I've done that. I guess I didn't investigate enough to know that the 40/40 would only work with the gouge I bought. It was a standard bowl gouge and I thought that was all that was required. So, I guess I just have an extra gouge that I will turn into an Ellsworth grind if I can't get the results I want any other way. No problem. I love turning, but I love all kinds of woodworking and so I only turn periodically for periods of time and then do other things. Thanks to everyone for the effort. I'll just keep experimenting. It's a good gouge - Sorby - and will work well no matter how I use it.
 

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without a 40 degree bowl gouge just as I have for the first 2 years I have turned
If you become proficient with the Ellsworth grind there are few times where the 40/40 would give you a measurably better cut.

The 40/40 gets a slightly better surface on the push cut
The Ellsworth gets a slightly better surface with the pull cut
The Ellsworth can Hollow much deeper bowls without the handle hitting the rim.
The 40/40 can under cut a rim at more acute angles than the Ellsworth.
The leading edge of the wing on the Ellsworth performs better than the40/40 on advanced flute up cuts and the backcut.

I don’t use a 40/40but have been thinking I might grind my Thompson vee as a 40/40 because it doesn’t take the Ellsworth grind as welll as the Jamison gouge made by Thompson.
 

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. I do find it difficult to get catch free results on the inside of bowls (especially small bowls) with the Ellsworth grind gouge

When I teach bowl turning, most students pick up the hollowing with quickly. They have gotten all the kinks out of the technique on the outside.

This is a clip from a demo showing how I hollow a bowl using the Ellsworth gouge.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flw8LwQqGQU
 
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Mostly it’s on the bottom of the bowl inside where I get catches which I guess makes sense. I have been using the Easy Wood round cutter and the Hunter Viceroy to start and scrapers to finish. I get better and better results that way. I would agree that the swept back grind gives great results I’ll as I build skills with it and my scrapers. Mostly for me it’s just being patient at the end, taking tiny cuts until I get to where I’m satisfied; like all woodworking.
 
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Using the vertical mount for the 40/40 grind is probably awkward, but it might help if you are able to remove the tool from the handle. I haven't tried it myself. I've only used the platform in the vertical mount for simpler situations where using the horizontal mount isn't practical when I'm not able to keep the wheel from pulling the tool off the rest.

If I had an extra bowl gouge lying around I might try coming up with a jig setting that approximates the 40/40 grind, but I really haven't felt like I need a tool with that grind.

See my post showing my platform on my jet. If you are clever with wiring you can install a double pole double throw switch to reverse the motor direction anytime you need it.
 

Bill Boehme

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See my post showing my platform on my jet. If you are clever with wiring you can install a double pole double throw switch to reverse the motor direction anytime you need it.

Reversing a motor is a simple matter as long as I can get to both leads of either the run winding or the start winding. I did make the mod to my first lathe, a Delta 1440 Boat Anchor. However, the situation is different with the Tormek because of the way that the motor shaft drives the grinding wheel. Reversing the motor itself is not a problem, but the motor shaft would slip on the rubber drive wheel. The other problem would be water running over the jig or tool rest and then everywhere except for the tray.
 
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See my post showing my platform on my jet. If you are clever with wiring you can install a double pole double throw switch to reverse the motor direction anytime you need it.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not interested in modifying a piece of equipment that works as well as the Tormek does just to accommodate the sharpening of a single tool. It just isn't worth the time nor the possibility I'd screw it up. While I have rewired one or two motors over time, the Tormek is a beautiful, very functional tool just the way it is. Thanks to everyone for all the effort making suggestions and your help. It's beginning to look like the most expedient plan is to become an exclusive Ellsworth grind turner for my gouges.
 
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Reversing a motor is a simple matter as long as I can get to both leads of either the run winding or the start winding. I did make the mod to my first lathe, a Delta 1440 Boat Anchor. However, the situation is different with the Tormek because of the way that the motor shaft drives the grinding wheel. Reversing the motor itself is not a problem, but the motor shaft would slip on the rubber drive wheel. The other problem would be water running over the jig or tool rest and then everywhere except for the tray.
Yeah I dont have that problem, I run my CBN wheel dry.
 
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Alternatively, You can try installing an additional Tormek bar receptical in the back and flip the tormek 180 degrees and run the platform in the back without messing with the Electricals.
However in my own shop, I may one day try sharpening one of my existing 40/40 ground gouges but I just don’t have the time to spend grinding/converting an original 40/40 grind on my Tormek. Gary, how is that 10 inch CBN wheel working for you.
 

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.... I do find it difficult to get catch free results on the inside of bowls (especially small bowls) with the Ellsworth grind gouges so I currently use a combination of other tools I have....

Don't know enough about gouges except buy high quality, hard steel versions. So, I've done that. I guess I didn't investigate enough to know that the 40/40 would only work with the gouge I bought. It was a standard bowl gouge and I thought that was all that was required. So, I guess I just have an extra gouge that I will turn into an Ellsworth grind if I can't get the results I want any other way.....

When you get that "Ah Hah" moment catches will become mostly a thing of the past and it will be more evident that technique is what really matters ... assuming that the tool is properly sharpened. Differences in grinds like Ellsworth, Irish, 40/40, conventional, unconventional, pre-Columbian, or whatnot are more a matter of preference and not a magic bullet.

Mostly it’s on the bottom of the bowl inside where I get catches which I guess makes sense....

If you could post a picture of one of your bowls it would help in giving more specific help.
 
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Alternatively, You can try installing an additional Tormek bar receptical in the back and flip the tormek 180 degrees and run the platform in the back without messing with the Electricals.
However in my own shop, I may one day try sharpening one of my existing 40/40 ground gouges but I just don’t have the time to spend grinding/converting an original 40/40 grind on my Tormek. Gary, how is that 10 inch CBN wheel working for you.
I like it better than the waterstone that was on it. The old waterstone split when the shaft rusted inside it. Its a 600 grit yet it sharpens pretty quick.
 
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I guess I didn't investigate enough to know that the 40/40 would only work with the gouge I bought. It was a standard bowl gouge and I thought that was all that was required. So, I guess I just have an extra gouge that I will turn into an Ellsworth grind if I can't get the results I want any other way. .
More unfortunate news, Randy. The swept back/Ellsworth/Irish grind doesn't work well with a U shaped flute either, at least in my experience.

What you have there is the foundation for an excellent Bottom Feeder gouge. That's easy to create on a platform, and probably on a Tormek, as it's simply setting the nose angle at 55-70 degrees and then rolling the shaft of the gouge back and forth.

It's very hard to get a 40-45 degree grind around the transition zone and across the bottom on a bowl, unless it's very shallow. A 55-60 degree angle, as is traditional on the Ellsworth grind, is easy peasy by comparison. While the bevel angle is a likely culprit, there are a variety of other things that could be making it hard to do the bottom with a gouge. 30 minutes with a fellow club member will probably identify what they might be for you and how you can minimize them.
 
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I've decided I'll just figure it out. With all the problems and variety of advice, it doesn't seem worth it to even make an attempt to find and grind a gouge 40/40, especially when I've found ways to give me the results I need other ways now. I just thought it sounded like an answer to improvement in finish quality when I guess that's not the case. Again, thanks to those of you providing help. I'm just going to work on improving my skills with the tools I have and the way I sharpen right now.
 

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Just grind the wings the way you want them. I have U shaped gouge that has wings that are about 1 1/2 long. They have a very acute edge and cut like a skew when doing a pull cut. I developed that grind long before I knew what a good grind looked like. It worked for me. Later I was demoing at an AAW symposium and was in the same demo room with Avelino Samuel. He had almost the same grind on one of his tools. We apparently think alike. Do a google search for images by Avelino Samuel and you will see some incredible work.
 
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Part of my problem is that I have been easily influenced by sharpening techniques which, by watching them on video or reading about them, I feel might improve my results. Maybe, but I now realize that they aren't the answer. As I've turned more, I've gotten better regardless of grind or tool used or wet or dry wood.
 
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Randy, I use a Grizzly wet sharpener with Tormek jigs, the SVD-186 for gouges. I use more of an Ellsworth 40° grind. The wings are longer than the Stuart Batty 40-40. I tried the shorter wings, which are what I call an Irish grind, and moved on to the longer wings simply because there is more edge for sheer scraping and peeling cuts. Anyway, my point is the Tormek jig can approximate the 40-40 grind. The angle of the edges is more acute, more like 30° at the end of my longer wings, and of course the angle gradually changes from the nose to the end of the wing, so an Irish grind would end up with ~35° angle at the end of the wing at the top of the flute. I set the SVD-186 to #3, with a tool projection of 75mm, and the bar set at hole "A" of the TTS-100. A pic of my 5/8" Benjamin's Best bowl gouge is below. Interestingly the flute of this gouge looks to be the same shape as the Crown Razor Edge 5/8" and Jamieson-Thompson 5/8" bowl gouges I have, i.e. parabolic. The Janieson gouge came with his signature grind, a 60° Ellsworth long wing. My jig settings for my 60° gouges matched up almost perfectly with his grind.

The picture you posted of your attempt at a 40-40 grind looks like a traditional grind to me, with little wing sweep. You are not spending enough time grinding the wings back, which on a wet sharpener takes forever. Do yourself a favor and get an 8" slow grinder and the Tormek BGM-100 tool rest bar for bench grinders. You can set the tool rest bar with the bench grinder using the Tormek TTS-100 the same as you do on the Tormek. Set your gouge jig, rough in whatever shape you want on the bench grinder quickly, then move right over to the Tormek to sharpen your edge, no changing of anything, then do all your re-sharpening on the Tormek. I use a secondary bevel for 2 reasons: 1) grind the gouge heel out of the way, and 2) reduce the amount of time it takes to re-sharpen on the wet grinder. I create the primary bevel with the jig with a different setting on the bench grinder, then reset the jig and move to the wet sharpener to create the secondary cutting bevel and edge. I get a 1/2 dozen or more re-sharpenings before going back to the bench grinder to redo the primary bevel. You will find reshaping of any tool much quicker with a bench grinder, and then use the Tormek to get your final edge.

I agree with you that there isn't a magic sharpening technique or shape. As long as the shape is reasonable and the edge is sharp, the rest comes down to the "operator" and tool control.

Edit: I just watched the Cindy Drozda video, and realized my edge angles are closer to 40° than I thought. I was measuring across the flutes to find the complimentary angle, so I was not measuring the angle with respect to the flute side as she shows, which means my side angles are steeper than I measured. Have to take another shot at measuring them.
 

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Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
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Location
Roscoe, Illinois
For me, it's incredibly easy to maintain the grind on my Ellsworth gouges with the Tormek. I don't have any interest in buying a grinder (slow or faster). I just don't have any other use for it besides this one tool. I bought all my gouges (except this one) and scrapers with the grind I intended to maintain on them, which I can do extremely quickly and well with the Tormek. The problem with the 40/40 grind is that it doesn't appear to me that it's easily maintainable on the Tormek with their jigs. I hand sharpen all my chisels and plane blades.

If I want, I can put a different grind on any gouge by using my friend's grinder or, better yet, let him do it for me.

Since I am not exclusively a turner and am into all types of woodworking, I feel I can eventually get to the skill level I want with what I have without trying different grinds. I'm relatively new and realize that I have much to learn about technique regardless of what tools or grinds I use.
 
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