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2436 spindle noise question (clattering)

KellyDunn said:
Is OW buying cheaper bearings?
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Suggest you not wait for them. Instead, get the bearing numbers, go to NTN's site, check with their tech support, and order a new set of bearings directly. When they arrive, "mike" them along with their receivers to make sure you don't have a headstock machining error. With mis-cut threading on (how many?) spindles this sounds like a toolroom QC problem, but at least you'll know that it's not the bearings' fault.

With you owning how many(?) of their machines, the response you're getting is kind of strange.
 
Bill, knowledge is a good thing. Thank you for sharing your experience.

Personally, I think that if OW is having manufacturing, QC issues, then they should be up front about it. If I were contemplating acquiring a new OW, the problems and the way you are being treated would give me pause, and would at least have me delaying my potential purchase until the matter has been addressed and resolved.
 
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you mention that there is about 15% different in the weight, using a different metal or a thicker/thinner metal will affect the sound waves travel
 
How bout that. I am not the only one to say the new live centers have loud bearings. So I would guess I have nothing to lose by seeing if I have the right tool to take apart the old one. Oneway says they will rebuild the old one for I think $35. Then I have my shipping from Hawaii. But if they put in the same bearings as the new one, no thanks. Its loud. Am I also being to picky like they are saying Bill is being? As a full time turner used to a quiet machine for all these years I say no I am not and neither is Bill. Ford is price concious. Mercedes is not. They build the best they can and believers follow. I have not priced bearings in years. How do you find out about quality in a bearing? Just price? Reviews of some kind? The makers themselves?
 
KellyDunn said:
How bout that. I am not the only one to say the new live centers have loud bearings. So I would guess I have nothing to lose by seeing if I have the right tool to take apart the old one. Oneway says they will rebuild the old one for I think $35. Then I have my shipping from Hawaii. But if they put in the same bearings as the new one, no thanks. Its loud. Am I also being to picky like they are saying Bill is being? As a full time turner used to a quiet machine for all these years I say no I am not and neither is Bill. Ford is price concious. Mercedes is not. They build the best they can and believers follow. I have not priced bearings in years. How do you find out about quality in a bearing? Just price? Reviews of some kind? The makers themselves?
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Kelly,

Go to NTN's website. They are the largest bearings maker, I believe. They also have bearing of the same size priced differently. They also have a tech support line (I think toll free) that you can ask questions like "I want a quite bearing" and they'll guide you from there. Been there twice to rebuild my routers. Pleased each time.
 
Mr Luce... thank you very much for posting about the problems with your One way....I was about to spend my money on one......thinking that One Way was the best but after reading this I think I will look else where........6-7 thousand is a lot of money to me and it has taken a long time to save up.....I sure dont want to waste it on a bum..lathe that the manufactur wont stand behind their products!...Again thanks much for posting
 
Jerry Ellsaesser said:
Mr Luce... thank you very much for posting about the problems with your One way....I was about to spend my money on one......thinking that One Way was the best but after reading this I think I will look else where........6-7 thousand is a lot of money to me and it has taken a long time to save up.....I sure dont want to waste it on a bum..lathe that the manufactur wont stand behind their products!...Again thanks much for posting
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Jerry,

Talk to Bill at Stubby USA and/or Brent at Robust Lathe.
 
Jerry Ellsaesser said:
Mr Luce... thank you very much for posting about the problems with your One way....I was about to spend my money on one......thinking that One Way was the best but after reading this I think I will look else where........6-7 thousand is a lot of money to me and it has taken a long time to save up.....I sure dont want to waste it on a bum..lathe that the manufactur wont stand behind their products!...Again thanks much for posting
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Jerry,

It's not my goal here to bash OW, I have been very happy for 12 years with my first 2436. It's been great and done all I've asked from it.

And hopefully my current confusing experience would not be yours. I do recommend you listen to a newer OW lathe at higher rpms and make sure it fits your own needs. At this stage my old one does and my newer one does not come close.

All the major lathes have their advantages and disadvantages, to some degree it's a personal preference thing. I personally like 2436 features like the left handed access I get with the OW protruding spindle nose, the speed control on the pedant so I don't have to bend over or cross my line of fire to adjust my speed (or risk bumping the speed knob on a big piece because the speed control box is on the ways somewhere), rely on the easy two speed switch on the ramp up and down, additional multiple remote stop start boxes, etc. That is why it has been a bummer to feel forced to move away from 2436's in my studio for my sanity, as I can't get all of these in any one new lathe. (Although it is kind of exciting, too.)

Since this painful saga I have been thinking alot about what I want/need in a lathe so I can really check out lathes in St. Paul. If you have any lathe related questions or anything to share and are going to St. Paul, feel free to grab me there. Bill
 
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Jerry Ellsaesser said:
Mr Luce... thank you very much for posting about the problems with your One way....I was about to spend my money on one......thinking that One Way was the best but after reading this I think I will look else where........6-7 thousand is a lot of money to me and it has taken a long time to save up.....I sure dont want to waste it on a bum..lathe that the manufactur wont stand behind their products!...Again thanks much for posting
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Hi Jerry,

I think it may be a little early to give up on the Oneway lathe. It has been one of the best lathes ever made for about 15 years or longer.

I think if you do a bit of research you will find that there have been very few problems reported. And those that had problems had them taken care of in short order.

Full discloser... I have a Oneway lathe that has been a real workhorse for me. I have had zero problems with it.

I know that all of the folks at Oneway are good honest people, and will do their best to correct any problem.

They have been at the head of the line with their support of the AAW for as long as they have been making lathes.

I do hope that the problems can be worked out with the lathe in question, but it seems to me to be the exception rather than the rule.

Best wishes,

Dave
 
Mark, thanks. I guess its like going to Taiwan to have your machines made. They will make the quality you are willing to pay for. Other countries also but Taiwan has a good history of machine making. And I forget the article I ran across but it set me straight. It was questions given to some makers. They point blank stated they can make whatever you want. That whatever came with different price tags. It was like. Why are you blaming us? We made it exactly to the specs of our customer. And I now recall a thing from Oneway stateing something about the quality of bearings versus the price. Cannot put my hand on it at this moment.
To the fellow considering a oneway. You were given great advise. Go see what the new machines sound like. I really modified my oneway. My complaints were perhaps more picky than Bills. I had harmonics which drove me nuts. Hell, I called every major turner I knew who had one to talk story. I was alone it seemed.So I had custom made steel plate tool rests made and a new spindle. Added another $1500 to my cost. But I quit bitching and went to work. I have the big outboard. My toolrest must be 15 pounds or more. But it does not flex off the tip. Oh, David Ellsworth told me at the time I was not the only one to have a complaint. I do not know about the Robust. But folks who own the stubby sure seem to like it. I really like my oneway. I would not want Bills noise though.
 
Taiwan

KellyDunn said:
Mark, thanks. I guess its like going to Taiwan to have your machines made. They will make the quality you are willing to pay for. Other countries also but Taiwan has a good history of machine making. And I forget the article I ran across but it set me straight. It was questions given to some makers. They point blank stated they can make whatever you want. That whatever came with different price tags. It was like. Why are you blaming us? We made it exactly to the specs of our customer.
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This was explained to me by a client many years ago as a cultural difference, that being, in Asia "Quality control is the customer's responsibility." They will make exactly what you ask for, but no more, and price the job at that point. They are dedicated to the concept of you get what you pay for, but only what you pay for. American firms declined to do that (Yankee work-ethic, etm). The American consumer became a price-shopper, unwilling to pay for domestic quality when Japan, then Taiwan was there to make almost-as-good for less. Now it's the Chinese that make things but cut corners to meet price limitations. When Bernie Marris owned Serious Lathe, he had his machines made there. I've never heard anyone complaining about their quality. In fact, I think Bernie priced himself out of the market at that time; apparently his specs were set too high. When I was shopping for my "last" lathe, Serious was near the top of my list, but when I called, Bernie tried to sell me the company rather than a lathe, and said he had several large-model machines waiting at the port in Singapore.
 
Excellent Experience With Oneway

I am with Dave Peebles on this one. I have used my Oneway 2436 for five years and have no regrets about the purchase. With the exception of an on/off push button that went out a year or so ago, it has performed flawlessly. Notified Oneway about the push button. Received a new one in about a week. No charge. Excellent customer service!

In the manufacturing and marketing of goods a "lemon" sometimes reaches the marketplace. Happens all the time - automobiles, kitchen applicances, etc. Most people don't stop buying a particular brand of automobile because there has been a recall to repair a manufacturing defect. Most people judge a product based on a long history of performance. It's unfair to judge the quality of goods based on the "lemon" experience.

Responsible manufacturers work with customers to solve problems with their products until the customer is satisfied. I expect Oneway will solve Bill's problem to his satisfaction and in the end he will be happy that he purchased another Oneway lathe. - John
 
Oneway 2436 Bearing Specs

Mark Mandell said:
Kelly,

Go to NTN's website. They are the largest bearings maker, I believe. They also have bearing of the same size priced differently. They also have a tech support line (I think toll free) that you can ask questions like "I want a quite bearing" and they'll guide you from there. Been there twice to rebuild my routers. Pleased each time.
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What specs should be used in searching NTN web site for Oneway 2436 replacement bearings? Assume one wants the best money can buy. - John
 
John King said:
What specs should be used in searching NTN web site for Oneway 2436 replacement bearings? Assume one wants the best money can buy. - John
Click to expand...

The first thing to do is download their engineering manual. It has a section that provides good educational information about bearings and you will also find information about the various types and grades of bearings that they offer. The cheapest bearings obviously have the loosest tolerances and the most expensive bearings are high precision, have better seals, closer tolerances with less axial and radial free play, and available preloaded if your application requires that. Something to think about is that these very expensive top quality preloaded tight seal bearings may be noisier than the middle of the road bearings especially at very high speeds. If you want highest quality US made bearings, Fafnir and Torrington were two of the vendors that we dealt with back when I worked for a living. I think that these companies may have merged since then.
 
The really interesting part to me is some changes to certain lathes that manufacturers could do it they wanted that would make them even more killer, like a middle pulley range on the big Magma. Whoops, I am OT like I said I didn't want to be.
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LOL - and the man just hijacked his own thread... 😀 😉
 
Bill Luce said:
Haha.

I don't mean to whine further about the whine. By then it will have been resolved either from a quiet headstock or by attrition.

I mean to yak about lathe options, strengths and trade offs. Never have we had so many good choices, but each still has tradeoffs- some of which are a big deal to me.

The really interesting part to me is some changes to certain lathes that manufacturers could do it they wanted that would make them even more killer, like a middle pulley range on the big Magma. Whoops, I am OT like I said I didn't want to be.
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See you in St. Paul, Bill. Did I understand that you will be the "winer"? Red, full bodied with some spice would be nice.😀
 
I've received emails from a couple folks that have reported the newer 2436's they have heard sound similar to them to the newer one in my vids, as contrasted to the older ones which are legendary for quiet.

I just got another email from someone who owns both an older and newer 2436 (and some other lathes) and he said when he compared the sound of his 2436's back to back, the comparison is similar to my vids. He referred to the newer one as the "dry bearing" sound and the old one very quiet like mine.

Naturally take all opinions fwtw, the only opinion that matters is your own.

I can't help but wonder if the newer double bearing setup is the issue (Kevin thinks not and told me they found them to be quieter).

And if so, I wonder if a person could retrofit their newer 2436 with the older style twin bearings and solve the issue?

Curse that curse! Calling the humor patrol...
 
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ray hampton said:
is there any way that you can shine a light into the spindle housing and inspect the bearing seat
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Ray, I am not sure what you mean. Here's pics of a new style spindle with the front double row bearing. I can't see any smoking guns when I inspect either the bearings externally or where the bearings fit into. All bearings are a snug fit into their corresponding endcaps.

The last two pics show a different spacing on two of the latest spindles between the bearings and pulley, but I am not sure if/what it means.Maybe nothing. The two spindles sound about the same to me. A while back I sent Kevin these pics along with a question of whether it made any difference (like in terms of pulley alignment) but never heard back.

I encourage anyone who is interested that hasn't listened to any of the vids comparing lathes to listen to one

like
View: http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/1/QYwxxqkoFyg
for example,to hear the difference between my two lathes. That's all that matters here.

Sounds like bearings to me, although not much sound at lower speeds. A friend stopped by this afternoon from out of town and listened to both machines (not a turner but sharp with machines) and it really sounded like bearings to him. He didn't have time to explore further.

I am really pressured by woodturning deadlines these days, and at this point in the long saga I think it's best I just leave the newer 2436 continued parked until I either hear back from OW with some advice (it's been pretty quiet on their end for a while) or I get the chance to start lathe shopping in St. Paul.

IMG_0578.JPG


IMG_0579.JPG


2487.JPG


IMG_2488.JPG
 
Bill Luce said:
Ray, I am not sure what you mean. Here's pics of a new style spindle with the front double row bearing. I can't see any smoking guns when I inspect either the bearings externally or where the bearings fit into. All bearings are a snug fit into their corresponding endcaps.

The last two pics show a different spacing on two of the latest spindles between the bearings and pulley, but I am not sure if/what it means.Maybe nothing.

I encourage anyone following this thread that hasn't listened to any of the vids comparing lathes to listen to one

like http://www.youtube.com/user/VesselMaker#p/a/u/1/QYwxxqkoFyg for example. And let me know how the newer 2436 sounds to you compared to other ones you've heard. Thanks, Bill
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Bill, Looking at your last photo with the bearings pressed close to the hex bolt heads, the thought occurs that at higher RPMs you'll get air turbulence in that space that is acting like a fan's blades. Is it possible that the sound you're getting is actually being generated that way? I'd look carefully at your old headstock to see what, if anything has changed in that area. Long shot, I know.

PS: Listened to your video again and, with that whistling harmonic, it does sound like an "air noise" to me. I'd also check for any change in the surface of the indexing ring. Last pix seems to show a series of weight-reducing holes inside of the actual indexing ring. If your old one lacks those, that could account for the air noise I think I'm hearing.
 
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Bill looking at your pictures, first picture I see the bearings have no scrach marks on them come in and out of the housing, and in the second picture the bearings on the other end of the spindle have scraches on them from coing in and out of the housing. My question is one bearing housing tighter than the other, everything is drawing for straws at this point, but if the bearing housing is too tight it could be putting too much pressure on the bearings,
 
John Brown said:
In picture #4 it looks like the bearing is touching the bolt heads.
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That is also my thought.

I also noticed scuffing on the bearing that looks like it had been forced into the headstock recess and the galling could have been caused by metal particles or some other type of grit or possibly from the bearing being inserted slightly cocked and then forced in. Neither scenario is particularly good, but the second one is worse and of even more concern would be HOW the bearing was pressed in. If any force was applied to the inner race, that could potentially ruin the bearing.

I am wondering about the beveled finger washer and how it is being used. If it is being used to preload the bearing, it seems to me that it ought to be flipped to face the other direction.

If the bearings are angle type, they should be identified in some manner to indicate which way is which. There is always the possibility that the bearing was installed backwards. If that is the case, when the bearing assembly is "preloaded", it would actually be getting a negative load that would open the clearance between balls and race. That definitely could be a reason for the noise.
 
Bill B,

The print calls for outboard bearings to be 6008. I don't believe that they are angular contact bearings.

Dale M
 
Dale Miner said:
Bill B,

The print calls for outboard bearings to be 6008. I don't believe that they are angular contact bearings.

Dale M
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The fact that they apparently are axially preloaded led me to assume they are angle bearings since regular bearings are not designed for more than very small axial loads. Ignore the fact that most woodturners essentially ignore this and preload the heck out of the bearings by honking down on the tailstock pressure.
 
Bill Boehme said:
I am wondering about the beveled finger washer and how it is being used. If it is being used to preload the bearing, it seems to me that it ought to be flipped to face the other direction.
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According to the 24xx schematic, the "toothed" washer in the pictures is correctly facing away from the bearing.
 
Alan Trout said:
Bill,

There are deep groove race ball bearings that are designed to take axial load. They are not as good as a tapered roller bearing IMHO for this application but will take it and are able to take some preload.

Alan
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OK, that sounds reasonable. Double row bearings with tight double labyrinth rubber seals will not be as quiet as single row bearings, but still they will not be noticeably loud as what Bill Luce is experiencing.

I am not quite sure what is meant by the term "spindle cartridge" that has been mentioned several times in this thread, but I assume that it means that he has received new spindles that included new bearings already pressed onto the spindle shafts. If that is the case, the problem is becoming rather difficult to solve (duh, I guess that that is more than an obvious statement).

I think that it would be worth mic'ing the spindle to see if the diameter is within the tolerance for the inner bearing race. If the diameter is too large, that could create an internal dimension problem in the bearing assembly. It would also be worthwhile to check the technical specs for the bearing to make sure that the maximum speed is not being exceeded.

Also, sometimes a different lubricant is used for bearing use at higher speeds. I haven't verified this lately, but I seem to recall that ball bearing assemblies are typically filled to about 30% of the internal air space. If a bearing somehow was overfilled, the bearing can overheat and also become noisy at high speed because internal drag resistance becomes very high.

My gut feel about the weight of the headstock is that it is a non-issue. The sound deadening of cast iron is greatly over rated for the frequencies that are of concern and a small change in mass would only translate to a much smaller change in the detected sound. Our ears have a logarithmic response to loudness, so even doubling the sound energy would only amount to a small difference in perceived sound level. A ten to twenty percent difference in headstock mass is not going to cause anything remotely close to doubling in sound energy. Bearings should be quiet and not be noisy regardless of the headstock mass.
 
Bill B,

It is my understanding that the current version at the inboard end uses a single bearing that is a double row deep groove angular contact bearing without a loading notch. This type bearing can be preloaded at the time of assembly. The amount of preload is determined at the time of assembly and can not be adjusted post assembly. The preload can be spec'd as zero, light, moderate, or heavy. The preload would be determined by differences in the distance between the centerlines of the inner and outer races, hence, no post assembly adjustment. But, and I do think it is a big but, if the shaft was oversize, or the housing undersize, then the amount of preload would be increased. A slight change in shaft dimension could cause a large change in preload by increasing the working diameter of the inner race. This increase in conjuction with the angular contact arrangement would in effect change the centerline spacing, increasing the preload.

The 6008 bearings on the outboard end are a single row deep groove without a loading notch (I think). An oversize shaft/undersize housing at this location could cause the bearing to lose clearance between the balls and the races and run 'tight'. In the assembly drawing, it looks as though there is a spacer between the outer races of the two 6008 bearings. This could be a way of allowing a light preload of the two bearings when the collar at the end of shaft is installed, if the setscrews retaining the collar tighten into the sides of the respective groove imparting a sideways force pressing the inner races against the shoulder on the shaft or against the spacer that is against the shoulder on the shaft.

The toothed washer is a lock washer. It has a tab that fits into a keyway in the shaft. Once the nut is tightened, a tooth or finger is found that lines up with a spanner notch in the nut, and bent into the spanner notch preventing the nut from coming loose.
 
Very Strange

Has anyone looked at Oneway's Warranty?

Spend 8K for their lathe, but it seems that Bill's problem, if it's caused by the bearings, drive, or wheels is NOT covered so Oneway doesn't have to fix his brand new, never used lathe.

See for yourself and tell me otherwise. Read the exclusion paragraph carefully.

http://www.oneway.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=11
 
Warenty

Have been following this thread....and not to be bashing OW...but compare their warenty to the mustard machines warenty and I think maby the mustard is a better deal....and the Robust sure looks good also.......to me service after the sale is at least 50% of the of the sale......Just saying.......Again thanks much for posting it sure may have saved me from having the same problem..
 
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