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Tools Arriving!!!

Discussion in 'Getting Started' started by Ron Vasser, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Ron Vasser

    Ron Vasser

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    My wife said, "was that another FedEx truck at your shop"? :)
    I got my sharpening station together, six turning tools, chucks but NO lathe. They sent me a message last week that it would arrive this week so I'll continue to wait. It's probably best because I'm getting other things done in the shop that would be hard to do with a lathe on site.
    I mounted my grinder on a mobile cabinet and I can keep my other lathe paraphernalia close by.
    The grinding platform had a raised spot about the size of the old half-dollar coins where the attachment lug was welded that I had to file away and then I slicked it up with a large diamond hone. The front edge of the platform had dings and weld splatter that also had to be dressed up. Seems they would have done a little better job but it's good to go now.
    P3185180.jpg
    This is the tool that I ask about before I ordered which no one that replied had used. They are made for Hurricane by Crown. I got 4 of those and today I got a package with my other two from Carter and Son.
    P3185188.jpg
    I'll post a picture of how my shop is arranged as soon as the lathe gets here.
    P3185183.jpg
     
    Ilias Tsiroglou likes this.
  2. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, it looks like you have jumped in with both feet.
     
  3. Gerald Lawrence

    Gerald Lawrence

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    And maybe a finger or two. You really like to buy a complete tool box. Looking good.
     
  4. Dean Moldenhauer

    Dean Moldenhauer

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    Ron, what kind of lights did you mount on your Rikon grinder? LED?
     
  5. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    I have a Rikon grinder and had no issues at all. You might call them or email with these little problems you encountered.
     
  6. Ron Vasser

    Ron Vasser

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    Well, my wife said head first, but she's okay with it!

    Thanks, Gerald. I am trying to be prepared for when the lathe arrives.

    They are magnetic LED and I got them from Ken Rizza at Woodturners Wonders. They are nice and bright.
     
  7. Ron Vasser

    Ron Vasser

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    No, the Rikon is fine, I was speaking of the Wolverine grinding platform.
     
  8. William Rogers

    William Rogers

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    Ron

    Great start. I don't have the Hurricane Cryo, but do have one Henry Taylor Cryo skew. Hard to say how much better Cryo is vs M2, but the fact they are made by Crown they should be very good. Not sure if you have ordered or considered, but I suggest you get the wolverine vari-grind for the gouges.
     
  9. Ron Vasser

    Ron Vasser

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    Thanks, William. I read some technical studies and their conclusions stated shallow cryo treatment toughens m2 HSS 35% and deep cryo 50 % over regular heat treatment. I'll take their word for it. The postman just left the vari-grind 2.
     
  10. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    Gotcha! No problems with my Wolverine, either. Again, call them and tell them of the problem you encountered.
     
  11. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Uh-oh. I guess that nobody mentioned getting the original Vari-Grind. The Vari-Grind 2 was designed to be safer for beginners, but the downside is that its range of motion is significantly less than the original Vari-Grind. If you later decide that you want to grind your gouges with longer swept back wings then you would need to either get the original Vari-Grind or learn platform sharpening.
     
  12. Ron Vasser

    Ron Vasser

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    No, I didn't know that but I'll return it tomorrow and get the original.
    Thanks for the heads up!
     
    William Rogers likes this.
  13. odie

    odie

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    Hello Ron......

    You should learn to use the vari-grind jig and the swept back grinds it is capable of producing. I used this set-up for many years.

    These days, I've almost completely abandoned the swept back grinds, and have gone back to my roots with the traditional grind. I learned the traditional grind back in the 1980's, when the swept back grinds were known, but only gaining in popularity. Along with most other turners, I adopted the swept back grinds and used them almost exclusively for the next 20 years, or so. Early this century, I began to use the traditional grind again, and slowly it crept back into my woodturning regimen. Subsequently, it has become my opinion that the traditional grind is more versatile in it's capabilities.......although I'm well aware that I'm currently in a very small minority with that opinion. (I could give my thoughts on why the swept-back grinds have almost completely taken over in popularity, but that will also be controversial, and a discussion for another time.)

    The traditional grind is done with your Wolverine V-arm, while your gouge is rotated along it's longitudinal axis. The butt of the handle rests directly in the crotch of the V-arm. The traditional grind does have a small amount of swept back profile, but not nearly as dramatic as with the more common swept back profiles being used these days. The presentation of the traditional grind is entirely different, and so the whole spectrum of how it can be used is likewise entirely different......and, in this lies the advantage that most people who don't use the traditional grind will ever be aware of.

    You should learn, and use both methods, so you can develop a well grounded concept of the capabilities they offer.

    Anyway, all of that is my opinion, and you, as well as other turners should set aside some time to experiment with the traditional grind......if you learn it, I guarantee it will be well worth your time and effort to give this older concept some consideration. :D

    -----odie-----

    This is the vari-grind jig being used with balanced nickels:
    Image021.JPG
    I don't seem to have, or can't find among 1000's of woodturning photos I have, of the traditional grind being ground. I'm writing a note to myself to take a photo.....look for it later today, or tomorrow.......

    -----odie-----
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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  14. Ron Vasser

    Ron Vasser

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    Thanks!
    I plan to start with traditional grinds. I've watched so many videos and read everything I can find on woodturning. I've been watching
    Mark Silay on Wood Slicing and his goal is for every cut to be a finished cut to eliminate as much sanding as possible.
    I finally got an email from Laguna and my lathe will arrive next Wednesday.
     
    odie likes this.
  15. Gary Beasley

    Gary Beasley

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    If you contact Mark you can arrange for some one on one instruction at his house. Been there done that, the man knows his stuff. Look up his website for contact info.
     
  16. Ron Vasser

    Ron Vasser

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    Thanks, Gary! After I get my lathe set up and turn 2x4s for a couple of weeks I will certainly try to make arrangements to visit him. I like his way of teaching and can understand the explanation of each cut he's making. Points, beads, V-cuts, flats, and coves.
     
  17. odie

    odie

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    The traditional gouge grind is very simply done, as shown here:
    IMG_4690.JPG
    Top is a side ground gouge done with the vari-grind jig. (has secondary bevel for clearance)
    Bottom is a traditional grind, done using the butt of the handle in the Wolverine V-arm.
    Very different, and used completely different from one another.....
    IMG_4691.JPG
    Both types perform best with a slightly curved profile of the wings. This is accomplished
    by eye, as you grind.

    Remember this: All grinds have one thing in common......the cutting edge. As long as that edge is sharp, AND presented to it's best advantage, it will cut well. Nothing else matters. Nothing! When it comes to a tooled surface prior to sanding, there is only one thing that counts.....results. Of course, there are differing levels of results, and If the results requires a minimal amount of sanding, the overall geometry will, by default, be closer to perfect. There is "theoretically perfect", and "realistically perfect". Realistically, all surfaces require some amount of sanding, and sanding is what destroys "theoretically perfect geometry". The closer you can get to "theoretically perfect geometry", the better, more aesthetically pleasing the finished turning will be......and, the more details and complicated surfaces and shapes you can pursue. If a turning requires an excessive amount of sanding, the turner is limited in scope of what shapes and details he can pursue......and, that is a "realistic" observation.......

    Rambling again......sorry! :D

    -----odie-----
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  18. William Rogers

    William Rogers

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    Odie, are you looking for a specific angle with your traditional grind?
     
  19. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    This is the grind commonly used for the bottoms of deep bowls with an 80 degree nose angle.
    With your gouge well above center on the wheel using the handle in the pocket is safe and effective.

    There was a safety warning about not using the pocket for steep angles.
    Using the pocket is not safe for an 80 degree front angle. A platform should be used if the nose is not an inch or two above center.
    40-60 degrees usually safely above center 70-80 usually too close to center.

    For a bottom of the bowl angle a platform is much safer since the 80 degree angle puts the nose of thegouge real close to the center of the wheel.
     
    Bill Boehme likes this.
  20. odie

    odie

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    Not really, William.......

    It's not a matter of precise angles, but more a matter of tuning your basic instincts to focus on "sight, sound, and feel". These things respond to your "spiritual" effort more gainfully than simple mathematical calculations and rigid rules can ever influence. Many woodturners put way too much emphasis on what can be measured.....or arbitrary, but rigid technical data.....and in turn are actually handicapping what really does make a difference......you!

    On all my traditionally ground gouges, I pretty much just match what angle is already there, so as to not waste tool steel. I give myself a lot of faith and trust that my "spiritual" input can find the best possible cut it can do. This is basically what I attempted to describe in my post above......it's all about the cutting edge and how it's presented, rather than measurements, rules, or other physical properties behind that cutting edge.

    There are times where I want the wings to be longer or more blunt, and when that need presents itself, it can be easily done by adjusting the angle slightly.

    -----odie-----
     
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  21. Ron Vasser

    Ron Vasser

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    That's called experience to develop a skill. When everything is fluid, and the rhythm is nice, and the fly just lights on the water right on top of the trout I kind of get the spiritual thing you're getting at. But that cast required mechanics to develop just like a golf swing, welding, or most things that require repetition. Got to have a starting point.

    Thanks. I can see where anything close to the center without a platform could become a disaster quickly!
     
  22. odie

    odie

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    True, Ron......there needs to be a starting point. Someone who has never sharpened a gouge might need that. Too many turners allow starting points (which are nothing more than suggestions) become a rule. We see many turners getting jigs that allow precise repetitions of various angles, and to do so, it becomes an obstacle to what really does make a difference in refining techniques. I'm not sure that "spiritual" is the best descriptive word to use, but I'm attempting to point out that real improvements to technique can be had by applying, and refining the human element within the cut. I mentioned "sight, sound, and feel", and the closer those things work in harmony, the better the result will be. To a degree, I'm in agreement that all of that is wasted, if the basic tool isn't sharp, or the presentation is faulty.......

    If someone tried to nail me to a specific angle for my traditional grind, I couldn't be any more specific that about 40-60°, and I stress that the angle is something that can vary quite a bit without any problems, as long as the other factors are working within that cut.

    -----odie-----
     
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  23. odie

    odie

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    .....But on second thought......maybe the best word is "spiritual". :eek:

    Although some try to make turning an intellectual pursuit, some of the most critical elements rely on things that are far from it. It's definitely a collaboration between the senses, and a certain amount of "instinct" is necessary to make that collaboration a harmonious blend that accomplishes the simple goal of cleanly made cuts on difficult woods.

    As previously mentioned, none of the above is possible.....if the tool isn't sharp, or presentation isn't at the best possible advantage. I'll add that the rpm is a critical element, as well. The best rpm will allow the most resistance to a bowl flexing during the cut, and it should be obvious to everyone that any felt vibration at any given speed is detrimental to the objective.

    -----odie-----
     
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  24. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    As you know, I also have that same model 10¢ grinder. Too bad that they dropped it from their product line many years ago. I think that it was without peer in the consumer market. As your two nickel demonstration shows it is smooth running ... and it is also whisper quiet. I threw away the little water tray that goes in front, but I see that you made good use of it to store frequently used items.

    The reason for my post is off topic, but I am curious about the little white flag clipped to a stick on the wheel guard.
     
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  25. odie

    odie

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    Howdy Bill......yes, that model of grinder is great. I feel lucky to have bought it when I did. Delta should have kept it in production.

    The little white flag is a piece of white paper on a magnet. I swing it down and look from the side to match the wheel to the bevel on gouges.....makes it a bit easier to see the profiles.

    -----odie-----
     
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  26. Edward Wargo

    Edward Wargo

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    odie,
    I was following a thread and came across this forum regarding sharpening. The statement you made that about lathe speed and resistance to flexing has peeked my curiosity, can you elaborate on that subject?
     
  27. odie

    odie

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    Howdy Edward......:)

    As I re-read these posts of mine, I'm not sure the word "resistance" is the best descriptive word to use, as applied. I do believe that lathe rpm is a critical element in getting the best cleanly made cut possible. Vibrations can be caused by a harmonic interaction between the lathe and the workpiece, statically......or it can be exacerbated when the cutting action of the tool is introduced. Finding the best static rpm is the first step, and without that, the best cut becomes impossible. The wood is spinning, and as the tool cuts, the cut oscillates between more, and less resistance between the orientation of the grain......at it's extremes.....I am referring to the end grain, as opposed to the long grain, but any variation in-between the extremes is also a part of the overall equation. None of these elements make a whit of difference, if things like sharpness, presentation, or the operator's sense of awareness aren't also coming into play for the best advantage.

    -----odie-----
     
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  28. Edward Wargo

    Edward Wargo

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    Hi odie,
    So here I am, it's Saturday morning, I'm at my lathe finishing a bowl that was rough turned last August. The bowl is Holly and measures 8" across. I'm making the initial cuts to get the bowl back to true. What RPM should I set the lathe speed?
    Once the bowl is trued up, what is the recommended lathe speed to make the finishing cuts?
    Please put yourself at your lathe and set your lathe to the speed you would use to do this job.
     
  29. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

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    Speed will depend on how your bowl is mounted for the second turning.
    Did you true up the old tenon?
    Is it mounted to a face plate?
    How far out of round did the bowl warp?
    Are you using the tail stock for additional support until it is back to round?
    Is the lathe vibrating or shaking when you increase the speed?
    Bring the speed up until you notice vibration and back it off a bit and start turning.
    As the bowl comes back into round you can increase the speed some to attain a smoother cut with a sharp tool.
    This can be a trial and error for different types of wood depending on grain orientation and consistency of the grain.
    The tool being used will also determine the optimum speed to use.
    The sharpness of the tool will also come into play when second turning a dry work piece, you will need to re-sharpen the tool a number of times.
    Take your time on the first bowl and try to use the tool with proper technique, if you run into trouble try using a sharp round noise scrapper.
     
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  30. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    My remounting a dried bowl begins with centering the grain in the bowl I rough out to dry.
    The symmetrical grain makes a pretty bowl and the dried bowl will be symmetrical.

    An asymmetrically warped bowl will still center using my methods.

    This is my method Mounting and turning a warped dried bowl -
    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZWsHB4vlM
     
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  31. odie

    odie

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    (Ed.....use the "reply" button in the lower right corner, if you want a response directly from me. Otherwise, I may never see your post!.....:D)

    Ed.....the best rpm for me may not be the best rpm for you. There are just too many variables, to make a statement about rpm that would be universal. However, the best rpm for me, would be the highest rpm with the least amount of felt, or "static" vibration......up to a point. There is a point where adding rpm won't be advantageous. Only you can make the determination of what's best for you.

    If you want a suggested speed for your 8" Holly bowl, I suspect you may find the best rpm to be around 700-800rpm, or so......and, then to make adjustments, or "fine tune" it from there. It may be higher, and it may be lower. The first indicator is the felt vibrations. If the warp is severe, or the out-of-balance is a significant factor, then those things will come into play in making the determination. There are techniques using both gouges and scrapers for the initial truing of a warped bowl, and they may require different speeds to get the best results.

    Here is an interesting thread about "vibrometer", that you may find interesting:
    http://aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/lathe-vibration-detector-ideas-please.14772/
    For me, it was an "eye opener", and opened doors to my own methods of fine tuning rpm for the least detectable vibrations.....although, I suspect that many will not find this information of value, unless they have advanced their own skill levels to some degree.....o_O

    -----odie-----
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
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  32. odie

    odie

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    I don't know why we no longer have the option to edit our posts......but "variants" should have been "variables" in the above post.

    -----odie-----
     
  33. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Try it again. I've been working on some changes to try to prevent videos from being placed in the gallery. That may have affected your ability to edit your post. No luck so far on the videos.
     
  34. odie

    odie

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    Testing
     
  35. odie

    odie

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    No go, Bill......:(
     
  36. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Try closing your browser and then restarting it.
     
  37. odie

    odie

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    Testing
     
  38. odie

    odie

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    Nope

    Might as well delete these posts, Bill.......
     
  39. Russell Nugent

    Russell Nugent

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    I'm able to edit my posts
     
  40. odie

    odie

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    I closed the browser, and restarted the pc.....again.....trying again.
     

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