John, that experiment is exactly what we need to see! I'm looking forward to hearing your results.
CD
CD
Just one last thought with regards to steel "strength":
In metallurgy, hard and strong are completely different things, measured in different ways, and capable of imparting properties to the object of study that may be beneficial or not based on the use.
Hardness is the resistance to deformation when a force is applied. The harder a metal is, the more brittle it becomes.
Strength (also referred to as toughness) is the ability of a metal to absorb energy without fracture.
Pure lead may be very tough or strong, but it sure isn't hard; whereas ceramics (couldn't think of a good well known metal example) are very hard, but not very strong.
Alloying metals is tricky. Which particular alloy is best for any specific application may be the exact opposite of what you'd want for a different application.
When we look at metals in a list or table showing relative toughness and hardness for each percentage of this or that, it may be easy to identify the hardest or the toughest; but it's not so easy to look at those measures and say which is the best for use as a lathe tool. It's always going to be a compromise between ability to get whacked repeatedly without breaking, and the ability to cut longer between sharpening sessions. Also, the ability to take a sharp edge may be contradictory to either of those goals. It's all a bit voodoo, smoke and mirrors.
As a former engineer who taught fracture mechanics to other engineers in the Navy, I can tell you it's a VERY difficult call to say which steel is "best" for this or that application. Those decisions are best made based on empirical data, destructive testing, and years of use experience. Everything else is just BS!
When a thousand woodturners say that a specific type steel holds an edge better than another type; you gotta give that some credence. When a company rep tells you that his/her steel is "the best" out there? Well, you gotta' take that with a grain of salt.
Oh, sorry about the wordiness, but I have one more thing to add:
Everybody has their own preferences Odie. You are correct in stating that you prefer "yours". Of course!
Numbers, charts, and math do not equate to "feel" or "perception" in an art like woodturning. For instance, no one can argue scientifically that the modern solid state amplifiers are not more accurate, efficient, and powerful than the old vacuum tube equipment. Facts is facts! But, that said, there are a number of VERY influential and experienced musicians and audiophiles who swear that vacuum tube equipment produces a better sound. I suppose the same should hold true for woodturning tools. Some swear by cryo-steel, powdered alloys, or even carbide; while others (usually the true craftsmen/artists) can make the argument that they prefer the "feel" of old fashioned M2 steel from a good manufacturer.
Bottom line is... it's the end result that counts, not the path (IMHO); sort of Machiavellian I suppose.
It honestly would not be hard to produce a scientific test for these tools.
To take out the personal aspect you sharpen the tools to the same sharpness, perform the same task, the same number of times, then you look at the steel under a microscope. You can tell quite clearly if a steel is still sharp, if it deformed or was brittle with edge chipping, etc. Then you record the number of times it takes to sharpen the gouge back to were it started.
If someone had all the tools and stones, it could be done.
Reminds me of the smartphone commercial where the guy has an old flip phone and says it suits his needs, the 3 button doesn't work but it's easy. The other guys has a new smartphone that has an easy function.
Point is Odie? Don't knock the new because you are satisfied with the old. Try a few of the "new" and then you can decide, don't take people's word and by all means, don't think anyone has to "prove" anything. Your loss.
Brian......One of your typical "low information" responses......
ooc
Yes, in your narrow minded world it was a juvenile response, but meant for humor purposes. Love how you reference "the herd", WOW!
I've just never understood the purpose of your responses. Most, in one way or another seem to try and push a point of what you use is the best(tool steel, grinding stones, sharpening, honing, etc) and everyone else is wrong or not doing it correctly. Maybe I've misinterpreted and I'm sorry if I have, but I doubt it. Sometimes I get the feeling, or I should say a word comes to mind when I read some of your responses...
Yes, I could have said that with a little less sarcasm, so I would agree that the comment was out of line......and, for that, I apologize.Uncalled for.
Thanks for the responses everyone. I read them the other day, and had to take some time out to consider my thoughts and come up with words that will make them understandable to others.
Deducing from past interaction with other turners, it seems to me that the one big reason why anyone would want any of the exotic steels, other than standard M2, is the ability to hold an edge for extended use without the need to resharpen. Cindy prefers American made, and it's possible that others may prefer some steels because of how they respond to their own personal sharpening methods and style. The latter would be minimal, and the point is that darn near all turners seem to think that a longer lasting edge is the only goal to consider........then there is me, the maverick!
I have come to a conclusion that M2, for my purposes, is the pinnacle of steels for turning. Man, that is so wrong, some of you will be saying! Well, given my reasoning.....it's so right! Is it possible, that for the purposes of turning wood by hand, there might be a point at which the usefulness of evermore longer lasting edges may exceed practicality?
I doubt that anyone will disagree that a sharp edge, no matter what steel is being used, begins to dull the instant it is first used.......and, that is a continuing process, until the turner decides it's time to resharpen. Given the mindset that a long lasting edge is the focus, and the hybrid steels provide that at a much slower rate to dull it, I'm willing to bet that nearly all turners (including myself) will tend to sharpen less than he should. When "long lasting" isn't the focus, and sharpening, honing is not an inconvenience, I tend to sharpen (grinding, and/or honing) much more than most turners ever will.
You see, when a sharp edge is renewed often, and long before need overcomes convenience, the degree of sharpness is not just higher, but much higher than when waiting until the need overcomes a perceived inconvenience. When the sharp edge is always maintained to the highest degree possible.......the quality of the cut will always be better! When the cut is at the peak of performance, the less disruption of the wood fibers, less sanding (less distortion), and better overall natural looking finish will be had.
For sure, M2 is much better than carbon steel in holding an edge, but there comes a point when an increase in that ability actually works against the elements of excepted knowledge. When that point is reached and/or crossed, the result may be completely imperceptible to most turners, but only realized when the focus of thought revolves around that realization.
What I'm trying to say here, will be completely missed by the "herd", but I'm willing to bet there are a few of you who realize, or have had similar thoughts, that the fineness of cut, at all times, and not the mechanics of sharpening is the real goal........
ooc
The issue with your line of reasoning is there is no reason to think the underlined assumption is true, just the opposite in fact. You have settled on M2, an advanced steel. If the assumption is correct your line of reasoning should take you further and further down the line of steels, hi-carbon, all the way to low carbon steel or below. Low carbon steel will take a wicked edge, gone in an instant. After that it dulls rapidly so you might get only a few seconds use before resharpening to that best edge again. I wouldn't be surprised if you got that perfect edge eight or ten times for every time you are getting it with M2 steel.
. I sharpen before I see obvious indications that it's in need of sharpening,
ooc
Actually not, Hu......
I have used carbon steel, as well as steels which hold an edge longer than M2 does. I'm using M2, because it holds an edge for a reasonable amount of use, and has properties that best suit my philosophy. I sharpen before I see obvious indications that it's in need of sharpening, because that's what maintains the standard of cut I require. In effect, I am using a fine degree of sharpness at all times, but admittedly, do renew the edge more often than most turners would.
A point I tried to express, is there is a overall mindset which inspires those to require ever-increasing edge longevity provided by higher grades of steel. This is what prompts some to extend their use beyond the degree of sharpness where I would have already resharpened using M2.
ooc
Odie,
I guess the term I should've used is "others mileage may Vary". Might I suggest you incorporate that into your "philosophies".
Odie,
Can you explain your sharpening criteria.
Mine is:
I sharpen when I begin to feel a drag the tool. This is caused either by the bevel getting gummed up or by the edge losing sharpness.
I can still get a reasonable surface but the tool is saying "sharpen me" so I do. A trip to the grinder sharpens the edge and cleans the bevel.
I also sharpen before any finishing cut.
Are we doing essentially the same thing or do you have a way of predicting the last cut before you sense a lack of sharpness.