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SRG (spindle roughing gouge)

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Champagne tastes Budweiser budget.. (story of my life)

I've been looking at three makers of spindle roughing gouges, Thompson, Carter and sons and d-way.

Now I'm starting to look at others just to stretch the tax return further.

Anyone have one of the crown cryo 1.25 roughing gouge with the black handle that could give me some insight? Or even the standard model 231w I believe? They are not that much different in price.

thanks
 

Jim McLain

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Champagne tastes Budweiser budget.. (story of my life)

I've been looking at three makers of spindle roughing gouges, Thompson, Carter and sons and d-way.

Now I'm starting to look at others just to stretch the tax return further.

Anyone have one of the crown cryo 1.25 roughing gouge with the black handle that could give me some insight? Or even the standard model 231w I believe? They are not that much different in price.

thanks
There is a used Hurricane on EBay now for $57.
 
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I have and use Doug's spindle roughing gouge. Yes it is expensive but there is nothing as good. In all the years I have had it I've sharpened it twice, it just keeps on cutting and cutting from square to round. It is made from a 2 1/2 pound hunk of 10V steel and there is no weak tang to worry about breaking.
 

Lance Mirrer

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Sam, your profile restricts contacting you. Please either PM or e-mail me cpa@taxmancpa.com to discuss.
I have several SRGs, more than I need and deciding which to keep. Specifically Thompson, Carter & Sons, P&N, Crown Cryo, Sorby, and others, $50 - $250.
Good Luck in your search,

Lance
 
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Same story here, I have 25+yr old Sorby 3/4” and 1 1/4” SRGs and don’t see any need for better steel that I like on bowl gouges. They last forever, and frankly I push the SRG past when I’d be resharpening a gouge most of the time because I’ll always be cleaning up the surface with another tool after putting the SRG down.
 

hockenbery

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I’m another one with a 30+ year old sorby. This tool takes off wood as well as any.
I probably use a bowl gouge 75% of the time for making a cylinder from a square.

A couple demo clips
SRG in action. Leaves a pretty smooth surface as you work the length of the spindle
trim.54D92208-3FAE-40AB-B5CC-72CCBAD33578.gif trim.030D58EB-ACBA-4411-A8CF-B93E484EB769.gif

Bowl gouge going square to round then a pull cut for a smooth surface
trim.686AA5B3-9F5A-493A-9EF1-802E90D1BB3D.gif. trim.DA938CB1-96AA-4CAB-8DB7-CDA4EE4BE541.gif
 

Dave Landers

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I have an old (probably 25+ years? can't remember) Sorby SRG. Works great. I sometimes use it for roughing, but more often for finishing cuts (side wing shear cut) on side-grain hollow form exteriors. I see no reason to replace it.
I do have several bowl gouges from Crown (Pro-PM) and they seem to be a good balance between edge-holding and price. But my SRG is either going to be beat up roughing, or used for finishing where I'm sharpening often anyway. So if I ever wear down my Sorby (unlikely) I'll probably replace it with something similar.
 
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Same story here, I have 25+yr old Sorby 3/4” and 1 1/4” SRGs and don’t see any need for better steel that I like on bowl gouges. They last forever, and frankly I push the SRG past when I’d be resharpening a gouge most of the time because I’ll always be cleaning up the surface with another tool after putting the SRG down.
Likewise. I do a lot of spindle turning. I use no-name SRGs. I'm happy with how they do, and certainly don't want to spend the cost of a top tier brand. I prefer no larger than 1" or slightly wider. I have a 2" but haven't used it for a long time.
 
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I'm a beginner and don't turn a lot of spindles, but I do turn some. I would put a high-quality roughing gouge low on my list. Even when I do turn spindles, I use the roughing gouge for what, maybe a minute? I'll keep using my cheap Wen roughing gouge until I feel the need to do something different. A roughing gouge is just that. You don't care what the surface looks like when you are done. I know I'll get some dissenting views and I look forward to hearing those.
 
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Likewise. I do a lot of spindle turning. I use no-name SRGs. I'm happy with how they do, and certainly don't want to spend the cost of a top tier brand. I prefer no larger than 1" or slightly wider. I have a 2" but haven't used it for a long time.
I think we made the same post within seconds of one another. ;)
 
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Champagne tastes Budweiser budget.. (story of my life)

I've been looking at three makers of spindle roughing gouges, Thompson, Carter and sons and d-way.

Now I'm starting to look at others just to stretch the tax return further.

Anyone have one of the crown cryo 1.25 roughing gouge with the black handle that could give me some insight? Or even the standard model 231w I believe? They are not that much different in price.

thanks
I do and its cut is not any better nor does it keep its edge any longer than my original sears HSS tool I got over 50 years ago. just keep it sharp. Admittedly, some of the sears tools are not too well thought out...what you get when you buy a set. I bought a set of the black tools you mention and really only use one, the skew. A large roughing gouge is very much like a skew anyway for many cuts.
 
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I had a Sorby 1 1/4 and the wife got me a Carter same width. Had no problem with the Sorby but traded it to a friend. The Carter is Fantastic. Good smooth cuts. The only bad for me was the extreme angle it was sharpened to and I reduced it a little.
 
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I have one old SRG from a kit of tools from Craft Supplies. It still works, maybe a 1 1/4 wide one, and I probably have 90% of it left. On smaller spindles, I use peeling cuts with my skews. Been turning a number of spheres starting with 1 1/2 square stock. The skew works far better. I do have one big continental style SRG and mostly it sits. I don't turn many spindles over about 2 inch diameter. I did make some rolling pins out of 3 inch stock, and can't remember what I used. Probably a bit of every thing....

robo hippy
 
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I keep hoping I'll wear out my original Benjamins Best SRG from 15 years ago, so I can upgrade, but the darn thing keeps on working. I got a Crown PM SRG when I bought my lathe used 13 years ago, and it's also still working. I can't say I notice a whole lot of difference between the two.

One caveat--some of the least expensive tools have a very small neck where the tang of the tool fits in. Since this is the weak spot that contributes to safety issues with the SRG, I would not recommend one of them, unless you put the steel in your own, sturdier handle.
 

Lance Mirrer

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One caveat--some of the least expensive tools have a very small neck where the tang of the tool fits in. Since this is the weak spot that contributes to safety issues with the SRG, I would not recommend one of them, unless you put the steel in your own, sturdier handle.
The Thompson, P&N, and Carter & Sons all have round tangs. Many others have flat tangs. Unless the flat tang is way out of the handle, changing to a new handle won't strengthen it - which as you discussed is the weak point of these tools. Note it is the tang itself, not the handle that is the weak point.

Used properly, the tang shouldn't be weak enough to break, but a bad catch, or letting the tool get caught between spinning wood and tool rest will result in flying broken steel.
 

Dave Landers

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Just in case anyone is wondering if you can make finishing cuts with a roughing gouge... Yann Marot won last year's Longest Shaving Contest at the Rocky Mountain Symposium with a 39 foot (almost 12 meters) shaving using a SRG.


Yann is up at about 11:23
 
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"Some people can make finishing cuts with a roughing gouge." FTFY
I'm no great spindle turner, but I can usually get a very nice finish off of my SRG. The trick is presenting the cutting edge at an angle, taking slow and light cuts, and keeping the lathe speed as high as possible.

As for the OP, I've been using a moderately-priced Narex SRG I bought at my local lumberyard. It's well-made and takes a very sharp edge. I'm not sure why Narex turning tools aren't more widely available in the US. Their bench chisels are very popular and considered a great bang for the buck, but I haven't seen Narex turning tools online and it just happens that I live near one of their few US distributors.
 
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I’ve got a standard Crown 1 1/4” SRG and it works fine. I did think a small SRG made from bar stock might come in handy so I bought a Crown Cryo SRG and to be honest it’s not any better than a friends Ashley Iles gouge of the same size.
 
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I'm no great spindle turner, but I can usually get a very nice finish off of my SRG. The trick is presenting the cutting edge at an angle, taking slow and light cuts, and keeping the lathe speed as high as possible.

As for the OP, I've been using a moderately-priced Narex SRG I bought at my local lumberyard. It's well-made and takes a very sharp edge. I'm not sure why Narex turning tools aren't more widely available in the US. Their bench chisels are very popular and considered a great bang for the buck, but I haven't seen Narex turning tools online and it just happens that I live near one of their few US distributors.
Highland hardwoods?

Really nice lady on the phone. No online sales unfortunately.
 

Michael Anderson

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SRG is one of my favorite tools. The large cutting surface area lends itself to very smooth finishing cuts (in addition to hogging off material). It’s a much more versatile tool than usually advertised/discussed. I guess partly because the name includes “roughing”. But it can plane, shear, scrape, etc… it can even be useful for some facework, though with much caution and attention. I have a Woodriver SRG, the first one I ever bought, and it works very well. The metal doesn’t hold its edge as well as something like a Thompson, but the flute is very long and the tool has a lot of life left. Speaking of Crown cryo, I have a 1/2” spindle gouge I’ve ground to be detail gouge. The metal is awesome, so I imagine the cryo SRG is great.
 
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I bought the crown cryo 1.25 roughing gouge a while back. I use it more than my other SRG (3/4 Sorby) but at least some of that is because of the larger size of the tool itself. It seems to hold an edge a better than the Sorby but again it may be due to it having more bevel/edge to cut with than the smaller tool.
 
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There seems to be a few models of the crown ones. I've found a 231w model which I guess is the beginning level I thought but hartville hardware sells one called an oversize roughing gouge and the handle doesn't have the same markings as the 231w. Both of those were 1 1/4. Then there is the cryo model with the black handle and also there is an m42 version called RAZR but I don't think it comes in 1 1/4.
The pinnacle brand looks pretty identical to the crown cryo as well.

The nice lady in new hampshire where they sell narex is going to get back with me on cost of shipping one. The tool itself was mid range price I'd say. I think they are made in the Czech Republic or somewhere like that. Might be better steel than Chinese offerings? (I know crown is English)

filename_607_l.jpg
 
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There seems to be a few models of the crown ones. I've found a 231w model which I guess is the beginning level I thought but hartville hardware sells one called an oversize roughing gouge and the handle doesn't have the same markings as the 231w. Both of those were 1 1/4. Then there is the cryo model with the black handle and also there is an m42 version called RAZR but I don't think it comes in 1 1/4.
The pinnacle brand looks pretty identical to the crown cryo as well.

The nice lady in new hampshire where they sell narex is going to get back with me on cost of shipping one to me. I think they are made in the Czech Republic or somewhere like that. Might be better steel than Chinese offerings? (I know crown is English)

filename_607_l.jpg
That’s an interesting handle shape. I may have to make one like that.
 

Michael Anderson

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Interesting! I didn’t know narex made turning tools. From what I read a while ago, their bench chisels are a great bang for the buck. I suppose a SRG would be the same.
 

Lance Mirrer

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There seems to be a few models of the crown ones. I've found a 231w model which I guess is the beginning level I thought but hartville hardware sells one called an oversize roughing gouge and the handle doesn't have the same markings as the 231w. Both of those were 1 1/4. Then there is the cryo model with the black handle and also there is an m42 version called RAZR but I don't think it comes in 1 1/4.
The pinnacle brand looks pretty identical to the crown cryo as well.

The nice lady in new hampshire where they sell narex is going to get back with me on cost of shipping one. The tool itself was mid range price I'd say. I think they are made in the Czech Republic or somewhere like that. Might be better steel than Chinese offerings? (I know crown is English)
Interesting. I have never seen a Narex turning tool. Did she know what metal it is?
You are correct, most (all that I know) Narex are Czech, Crown and Sorby English, and all should be better (at least more consistent) than Chinese tools.

What prices were these?
 
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The Thompson, P&N, and Carter & Sons all have round tangs. Many others have flat tangs. Unless the flat tang is way out of the handle, changing to a new handle won't strengthen it - which as you discussed is the weak point of these tools. Note it is the tang itself, not the handle that is the weak point.

Used properly, the tang shouldn't be weak enough to break, but a bad catch, or letting the tool get caught between spinning wood and tool rest will result in flying broken steel.

I would only consider those three SRG's for that reason... for their substantial milled, not pressed, tangs. The press forged tangs are at risk of doing this....

bent spindle roughing gouge.jpg

I also still have my 35yr+ old P&N 1-1/4" SRG that will outlast me. They no longer make those, but a second hand one of those would be a great find. Mine lost some of its length from sharpening before I moved over to diamond wheels 15yrs ago and then to CBN.

A 3/4" bowl gouge can also be used quite effectively as an SRG. This is a good option for those who don't do much spindle work and more likely to have some use for a larger BG. The price of a good 3/4" BG is also very competitive compared to a dedicated 1-1/4" SRG.

I have also used a Crown 1" and 7/8" BGs for that purpose, but most bowl turners don't need a BG of that size unless they are doing a lot of large green bowl/platter turning.

An alternative to an SRG for doing fine finishing cuts on the outside of forms is a ' continental' gouge. They are forged from flat bar, but their tangs are less of an issue when used for that purpose. Their flutes are much shallower than SRGs and are up to 1-1/4" wide and that gives a lot of fresh edge to work with and again are much cheaper than a good SRG that has a milled tang.

Discussions on the use of SRGs anywhere near grosgrain work raises safety issues and is also likely to cause some controversy, so I'll ponder on that for a bit before venturing into making any comments on that.
 
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A good number of the reviews for the Carter and Son SRG on their website talk about using it (often right out of the box) on bowls, very large bowls in some cases. While that 3/4" round tang probably wouldn't flinch at a serious catch, I'm having a hard time seeing the advantage of such a tool for roughing out a bowl. I'm sure it can be done, but a hefty bowl gouge is a lot cheaper.
 
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The nice lady in new hampshire where they sell narex is going to get back with me on cost of shipping one.

If they can't ship, drop me a line and I'll see what I can do. Highland Hardwoods isn't far from me, and I've been meaning to make the trip out there to pick up some more short boards from their discount bin.
 
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A good number of the reviews for the Carter and Son SRG on their website talk about using it (often right out of the box) on bowls, very large bowls in some cases. While that 3/4" round tang probably wouldn't flinch at a serious catch, I'm having a hard time seeing the advantage of such a tool for roughing out a bowl. I'm sure it can be done, but a hefty bowl gouge is a lot cheaper.
Discussions on the use of SRGs anywhere near grosgrain work raises safety issues and is also likely to cause some controversy, so I'll ponder on that for a bit before venturing into making any comments on that.

OK, the discussion has drifted into SRG use on bowls and crossgrain work, so let's cut to the chase on that before anyone gets chased by the cut with that.

IME, there is only very limited safe use of an SRG on crossgrain work. They were designed for roughing down spindle work where the grain is running along the spindle and parallel to the bed ways. It is an excellent tool for removing a lot of wood quickly when used for that purpose.

There is only one place on a grosgrain blank where similar grain orientation applies and that is across the face of the blank before starting to turn down into the side grain at which point a bowl gouge becomes the more efficient and safer tool.

The issue with the SRG is two fold. Firstly the grind, which is mostly straight across on a U flute profile, and secondly the size of the tool, which is at least 1" or more.

Unlike a bowl gouge with some sweep back along the wings, an SRG with a straight across grind has high and protruding wing edges that are waiting to start to self-feed into any side or endgrain that it is pointed towards. And, if it starts to self-feed you won't know anything about it until it is all over!

The other issue is the size of the tool. If you haven't done any turning with a 1" bowl gouge you won't know how much force is transmitted through the handle to you. With tools of that size we have to use long handles to manage the leverage involved. Most SRGs don't have the length of handle required for the potential forces involved should the tool engage in some side or crossgrain. Even the Narex handles in the above photo posted by Asher and Sam are on the short side for a tool of that size for anything other than spindle work, IMO.

Would I ever use my SRGs to do fine peeling cuts on the outside of a bowl? No, because the wings on a BG do that as well or better and I already have the BG in my hand from having roughed down the outside of the bowl.

Would I ever use an SRG on the inside of a bowl?... Never, never, never!!!
An SRG on the inside of a Bowl is a disaster waiting to happen... very quickly and more than likely quite spectacularly...:eek:
That is what Bowl Gouges were developed to do and they do it exceedingly well.
SRGs predate BGs by many centuries and evolved to do a specific task very well that didn't include deep bowl work.

Having said that, I do make very limited use of my modified SRG (modified with slightly swept back wings and a longer handle) to face off my bowl blanks before I begin to turning into the side/endgrain with BGs. Why use an SRG for that? Well, it's just a bit quicker and easier for doing that particular step than a bowl gouge, but I put it away and continue with the bowl gouges after that. Note that I have modified the wings for doing this and it has a much longer handle than most SRGs.

Here is a video showing how my modified SRG is quicker and easier for facing off bowl blanks than a 3/4" BG by at about half the time, so probably there is not all that much advantage in doing so given that I'm going to have to put it away and pick up a BGs to complete most of the bowl anyway.... :)

View: https://youtu.be/mMyXMSKtHaA
 

Lance Mirrer

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Wow! This has been a great thread. Started as an almost out of place "I want to buy" and flew into some great conversations about tool types & techniques.

Thanks for all those who take the time to share your knowledge and experience!
 

hockenbery

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video showing how my modified SRG is quicker and easier for facing off bowl blanks than a 3/4" BG by at about half the time, so probably there is not all that much advantage in doing so given that I'm going to have to put it away and pick up a BGs to complete most of the bowl anyway
Neil, can’t see your video it shows as private.

Your post covers not using an SRG on face grain well, to include some narrow exceptions one of which is having it highly skilled hands.
Two things I like to reinforce:
catches with an SRG are more sever than with a bowl gouge. Sometimes catastrofic.
The bowl gouge will do everything an SRG will do on a bowl as well of better with a whole lot more safety.

A high angle pull cut with a side ground bowl gouge leaves about the best tool surface a turner can get on the outside of a bowl.
 
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The catches with SRGs on bowls happen because people are trying to use the SRG in peeling cut mode, which is how they are used on spindles. That is the infamous Robbo video from years ago. The fatal mistake he makes is to extend way out off the tool rest, and then he raises the handle which causes the bevel to come off the wood and that sharp edge pointing up into the spinning wood provides a nasty catch. A SRG. rolled onto its side will provide a very high shear angle, and can rival anything any bowl gouge can do. Also, you need to work on the low side of the flute, the part that sits on the tool rest, not the top side. This is a skill that is required with a skew chisel.

robo hippy
 

Lance Mirrer

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A few SRGs and continental gouges.
The one between the Thompson and Carter & Sons is a P&N. The Thompson & Carter have the tang pulled out to see the round tang. The P&N also has round tang. The rest are flat
 

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