Sharp edges on turning tools

[Bart Leetch]

I have the Oneway sharpening jigs which work fine.

I wonder though does anyone here use hand held I guess there called slip stones to just touch up an edge as a way of not going to the grinder & to save a little tool steel?

 

[Jorge Castaneda]

Honing

Bart,
Honing is the way to go, sharper edges.
I use a 600 grit diamond home, use it hand held for gouges, sitting on the bench for skews...
Jorge

 

[Bart Leetch]

Jorge

Thanks Jorge. If I understand you right you just hone the bevel on the gouges not the inside?In other words you leave the burr on the inside.

 

[robo hippy]

The only time I hone is when I turn a burr on my scrapers, as the grinder burr needs to be removed. The honed edges don't last as long as the grinder edges. I do use a 150 grit wheel though. I guess it would be like the edge on a kitchen knife. You can make it sharp enough to shave with, but that fine of an edge just isn't practical for utility use. I suppose I should try it out on my gouges to see how much of a difference there is, if I can even feel it. I can feel the difference between HSS and my Thompson gouges though, the HSS does take a finer edge. You can and should touch up the inside edge as well, but this depends on how fine of a job was done on the flutes when it was milled.

robo hippy

 

[Wipedout]

Robo

Does thsi mean you don't like your Thompson's?

 

[MichaelMouse]

I have the Oneway sharpening jigs which work fine.

I wonder though does anyone here use hand held I guess there called slip stones to just touch up an edge as a way of not going to the grinder & to save a little tool steel?

I think most people go from grind to work without even running a cone inside to knock off the mild burr you get from most alloy steels. It might seem more economical to hone, but it takes away as much steel to freshen an edge on a stationary stone, so the time lost is significant. I also have decided that beginning sanding with 150, a surface easily obtained with a tool right off the wheel is a good compromise, rather than spending time honing and refining so I could start finer.

For straight edges and parting tools a diamond on steel "stone" is excellent, but there it's keeping things straight that's most important.

 

[steelguy]

Grinding, Honing

Bart - Alan Lacer and I wrote two articles for American Woodturner (Winter 2008, Summer 2009) in which we investigated the effects of different methods of edge preparation. Included were variations in grinding, honing and other methods of raising burrs (including honing the inside of gouges). We used high magnification digital imagery on the cutting edges as well as the cut wood surfaces resulting from using the edges. If you you review the articles, and look at the images, you will get a good idea of what you are accomplishing with whatever sharpening methods you are using.

Jerry

 

[odie]

If I'm not mistaken, it was Richard Raffan I saw touching up the edge on a gouge with the swipe of slip stone in his vhs video.

I've tried it, but have not had great results......well, the slip stone by itself, anyway.

With gouges, I usually rehone on the 200 grit wet wheel several times before I return to the grinder. Each time I do, I ALWAYS do it in conjunction with the slip stone......never either/or.....always together. Occasionally, I use a round diamond for touching up, but mostly rely on the slip stones to clean up an edge.

ooc

Here is my 200 grit wet wheel, and you can see the slip stones in the grinder stand tray.

 

[john lucas]

I have to respectfully disagree about HSS taking a keener edge. When I got my Thompson gouge I thought that was the case. The HSS did seem to get sharper. I'm not sure what I changed exactly but the Thompson tools do get just as sharp. To prove it when I got the Thompson skew I sharpened, honed and stropped both The Thompson and 2 of my HSS skews. All of them would shave hair and I mean shave as in taking off a wide swath. I could not tell the difference.
I think all this not getting sharp thing started with carbide which is so hard the edge crumbles and literally won't get a clean edge. The new carbide may be different since a Hunter tool right out of the box is extremely sharp. Microscopically the edges might not be the same when you compare the HSS to the A11 steel that Doug uses but in actual use I haven't been able to prove the difference.
I also have some carbon steel tools and sometimes it feels like they cut cleaner. It could simply be that the sharpening angle is different on these tools. It's a very subtle thing. I know most carving tools are high carbon steel. However these are pushed into the wood, slowly with hand power. I turning tool takes more abuse in 30 seconds than a carving tool does in a week. I suspect a honed edge doesn't last very long however it you get one good pass it does it's job.
That's obviously just my opinion. Open to discussion of course.
I don't hone often because most of my turning simply doesn't need it. When I get to a final cut I do hone if it's not cutting clean enough. Usually I will just hone the flute with my diamond fish hook sharpener. That's usually enough. If I really need sharp I hone the outside as well.

 

[steelguy]

John - We agree!

Similar edges can be developed on high carbon steel, HSS, CPM 10V, or any of the PM super highspeed steels. The technique necessary may be different because the high carbide volumes in the advanced steels require more advanced grinding wheels. SG wheels (blue) make quick work of things on any of the new steels. The articles I referenced above, show same edges and cutting results for everything from hi C steels through M2 HSS to CPM 10V.

Jerry

 

[odie]

SG wheels (blue) make quick work of things on any of the new steels.

Related comments:

I've been using the Norton SG wheels for several years now. The claim is the abrasive breaks down, exposing fresh ceramic. I don't know if that's true, but I have noticed that I have to use the diamond dresser a lot less often than I ever did before. That, in itself, seems to support the claim.

Most of my dressing needs are the result of an uneven surface profile......not because the wheel becomes clogged and needs dressing to grind well. If you have the opportunity to check out the photos I posted in this thread, you'll see a dark haze on the grinding surface of the SG wheel. This is normal and the wheel still grinds very well with the discoloration. On most any other type of grinder wheels I've ever used, the discoloration is an indication of a need to dress......the SG is a whole nuther breed!

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

I do love my Thompsons. My go to tools. I have some of the Oneway harder ones (don't know the model), and one Ellsworth HSS gouge. The HSS does take a finer edge. I can feel it, it cuts differently, or at least that is how it seems to me, and it isn't an angle or tool presentation thing. There was a big difference between it and one of the Packard (cuts 5 times longer) that I got some years back. The difference between the HSS and the cryo powder metals is some what less, and as the technology progresses, I imagine that the difference will be unnoticeable. I have one friend who has turned 700 or so small myrtle wood bowls for the last 20 years. He says if he hones his Thompsons, it makes a difference, and there was one that didn't hold or sharpen as well as the others.

robo hippy

 

[Vaughn]

I'll be the odd man out on this one. I was very happy with the results I got from my 1725 rpm grinder and the 80 and 120 grit Oneway wheels, and the Wolverine knock-off from Penn State. Then I got a Tormek. Now I wet grind and leather hone my gouges and skews.

To me, the honed edge lasts at least as long as the dry-ground edge. It also cuts cleaner and more easily. I don't change my gouge profiles around, so once a gouge has been shaped with the profile I want, sharpening and honing on the Tormek takes me no longer that using the dry grinder without honing. Plus, I don't need to go to the grinder as often, since the honed edge lasts longer for me.

[dons flameproof suit]

 

[Bart Leetch]

Standin by with a fire extinguisher. hi Vaughn.

I'll be the odd man out on this one. I was very happy with the results I got from my 1725 rpm grinder and the 80 and 120 grit Oneway wheels, and the Wolverine knock-off from Penn State. Then I got a Tormek. Now I wet grind and leather hone my gouges and skews.

To me, the honed edge lasts at least as long as the dry-ground edge. It also cuts cleaner and more easily. I don't change my gouge profiles around, so once a gouge has been shaped with the profile I want, sharpening and honing on the Tormek takes me no longer that using the dry grinder without honing. Plus, I don't need to go to the grinder as often, since the honed edge lasts longer for me.

[dons flameproof suit]

 

[john lucas]

Vaughan I will agree that the Tormek gives an excellent edge and after initial grinding doesn't take any longer to sharpen. It's just a heck of a lot of money and replacing the wheel is quite expensive. Not putting it down just saying it isn't for everyone. I have a Shepac wet wheel grinder but I use it just for plane blades, chisels and carving tools.

 

[Vaughn]

John, I agree on the money aspect. I was fortunate to find a used one for not much more than the Grizzly knock-off, so I jumped on the deal. My plane irons, bench chisels, and turning tools have thanked me ever since.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'll be the odd man out on this one. I was very happy with the results I got from my 1725 rpm grinder and the 80 and 120 grit Oneway wheels, and the Wolverine knock-off from Penn State. Then I got a Tormek. Now I wet grind and leather hone my gouges and skews.

To me, the honed edge lasts at least as long as the dry-ground edge. It also cuts cleaner and more easily. I don't change my gouge profiles around, so once a gouge has been shaped with the profile I want, sharpening and honing on the Tormek takes me no longer that using the dry grinder without honing. Plus, I don't need to go to the grinder as often, since the honed edge lasts longer for me.

[dons flameproof suit]

I'm with you, bro'. We'll fight fire with water.

I have both a Tormek (had it for many years before I started turning) and a high-dollar Delta grinder with Norton SG wheels and all of the Oneway accessories (cost was a heck of a lot more than the Tormek). I swing both ways (talkin' about sharpening), but my preference is the Tormek. Some folks who have probably never even touched one have told me that it is too slow. If you use a jig with a dry grinder, my observation is that it is no faster than using a jig with the Tormek. And, like you, I feel that a tool that starts out sharper, cuts easier, and stays sharp longer.

Not that it matters one way or the other, my idle speculation for why it would keep its edge longer has to do with heat at the cutting edge leading to resin to build up on the bevel and that forces one to subconsciously "find" a steeper contact angle between the steel and wood to get a good cut. That is the appropriate time to go back to the grinder or at least hone, but my experience leads me to believe that the tools sharpened on the Tormek being sharper, produce less heat at the cutting edge and, as a result, go longer before getting to the point of needing a touch up.

This is what works for me, but different things work for different people.