Perfect Leo! Thank you for the photos and your explanation.Question is what chuck are you having/using, I have used my Oneway chucks for many years and use the standard Oneway jaws in the recess, if you use dovetail jaws you will need to make the recess fitting those jaws.
A recess is a very safe manner to hold sound wood to turn, but the recess has to be made very nice and clean so the jaws can hold the wood securely.
Here is a typical recess as I make in 90% of my turnings
View attachment 60263
As for size I make a recess typically about 1/3th of the blank size, depending a bit on the shape and size and the shape I will be turning it, and 1/8th to 3/16" that is deep enough, a little deeper does not hurt.
View attachment 60264
Here is a White Ash held with a recess while turning the inside.
View attachment 60265
This rough turned Walnut piece is about 15 " and was held with a shallow recess, enough for a experienced turner, just take your time.
View attachment 60267
With a recess make sure you don’t tighten too much and cause a split, not an issue with a tenonLike Rusty and the majority of turners in North America, I use a tenon on bowls.
Not a fan of using a recess but I would use 100 mm jaws, and 1/4” deep should be plenty.
Thank you Neil. That is alot of good information. I think I will give it a try.I don't know if I'm a fan of recesses, but close to 100% of my bowls, platters and hollow forms are 2nd turned or turned from seasoned blanks using a recess. I've been doing it that way since the first scroll chucks became available.
The reason I do it that way is that it eliminates an extra step in the turning process:
The downside of this method is that you need many different chuck jaw sizes to get the design proportions right. At last count I have 16 different jaw sizes going from 223mm down to 25mm at true circle on the OD dovetail. Only yesterday I completed a 65mm dovetail jaw size that wasn't commercially available for my chucks, which filled the gap between my 56mm and 72mm jaws.
- Mount the blank or pre-turned piece on the lathe and turn, sand and polish the outside.
- Remount the bowl/platter/hollow form by its recess and turn, sand and polish the inside.
Remount to remove foot tenon and make final foot- Remove from the lathe.... piece is done!
The other downsize is that it takes a bit more skill to turn out the inside of bowls and hollow forms using a shallow recess without hoiking the piece off the lathe. I had less of that problem with the second 500 pieces I turned that way and since then rarely lose a piece at that stage. If it does come off the lathe at that stage you invariably have to completely re-turn, sand and polish it again, that is if it can be salvaged at all. But, overall I think I'm ahead by having eliminated that extra step.
If trying this, to begin with:
Use deeper recesses until you get the feel for how shallow you can go on the recesses.Make your recesses as close to the true circle of the jaws sizes you have to spread the forces evenly inside the recess.Also, position the jaws in the quarter sawn position to reduce the chances of splitting (ie at 45deg from the direction of the grain so the mid point of the jaw, where the max pressure will be exerted, is at 45deg to the grain in crossgrain pieces). Pressure directly out against the sidegrain will make the recess ring more vulnerable, so 45deg is the safest position. Robo Hippy's video also covers those points.
But, I can understand why turners go with outside tenons, especially if they have limited jaw size options available and also still getting up to speed with their turning techniques that reduce the chance of a catch, which will be more readily hoiked off the lathe if held with a fine recess.
PS
- I do use recesses on both side and endgrain pieces.
- I do almost all of my turning outboard, so never use tailstock support.
- My foot rings are not as supported with as much wood compared to some others turners who also use recesses... :~}
I've added an upright of each piece as the photo
from the foot direction make the feet look much bigger than
they actually are from the camera foreshortening.
The first one is crossgrain
and the second is a 12" tall endgrain hollow form
View attachment 60300 View attachment 60301
View attachment 60303 View attachment 60304
Me too, I always use a tenon. Not just for safety but I believe it offers more design options for finishing the foot. I must confess, I didn’t think of this, one of the demonstrators at my club mentioned it.Not a fan of using a recess but I would use 100 mm jaws, and 1/4” deep should be plenty.
That’s what I do too. I match the tenon for the size of the foot I want. When I make a round bottom bowl I normally use a 50 mm tenon.Me too, I always use a tenon. Not just for safety but I believe it offers more design options for finishing the foot. I must confess, I didn’t think of this, one of the demonstrators at my club mentioned it.
I have been taught that when somebody looks at your bowl they should not be able to tell how it was held onto the lathe. Even when I used a recess I would finish turn the recess not to look like one. I had three thin bowls crack in half while sanding because of the jaws being too tight in the recess. Since I have gone to a tenon I have not lost a bowl.I don't know if I'm a fan of recesses, but close to 100% of my bowls, platters and hollow forms are 2nd turned or turned from seasoned blanks using a recess. I've been doing it that way since the first scroll chucks became available.
The reason I do it that way is that it eliminates an extra step in the turning process:
The downside of this method is that you need many different chuck jaw sizes to get the design proportions right. At last count I have 16 different jaw sizes going from 223mm down to 25mm at true circle on the OD dovetail. Only yesterday I completed a 65mm dovetail jaw size that wasn't commercially available for my chucks, which filled the gap between my 56mm and 72mm jaws.
- Mount the blank or pre-turned piece on the lathe and turn, sand and polish the outside.
- Remount the bowl/platter/hollow form by its recess and turn, sand and polish the inside.
Remount to remove foot tenon and make final foot- Remove from the lathe.... piece is done!
The other downsize is that it takes a bit more skill to turn out the inside of bowls and hollow forms using a shallow recess without hoiking the piece off the lathe. I had less of that problem with the second 500 pieces I turned that way and since then rarely lose a piece at that stage. If it does come off the lathe at that stage you invariably have to completely re-turn, sand and polish it again, that is if it can be salvaged at all. But, overall I think I'm ahead by having eliminated that extra step.
If trying this, to begin with:
Use deeper recesses until you get the feel for how shallow you can go on the recesses.Make your recesses as close to the true circle of the jaws sizes you have to spread the forces evenly inside the recess.Also, position the jaws in the quarter sawn position to reduce the chances of splitting (ie at 45deg from the direction of the grain so the mid point of the jaw, where the max pressure will be exerted, is at 45deg to the grain in crossgrain pieces). Pressure directly out against the sidegrain will make the recess ring more vulnerable, so 45deg is the safest position. Robo Hippy's video also covers those points.
But, I can understand why turners go with outside tenons, especially if they have limited jaw size options available and also still getting up to speed with their turning techniques that reduce the chance of a catch, which will be more readily hoiked off the lathe if held with a fine recess.
PS
- I do use recesses on both side and endgrain pieces.
- I do almost all of my turning outboard, so never use tailstock support.
- My foot rings are not as supported with as much wood compared to some others turners who also use recesses... :~}
I've added an upright of each piece as the photo
from the foot direction make the feet look much bigger than
they actually are from the camera foreshortening.
The first one is crossgrain
and the second is a 12" tall endgrain hollow form
View attachment 60300 View attachment 60301
View attachment 60303 View attachment 60304
I agree with you I don't like seeing how the bowl was heldI agree, Bill. I always use tenons because they allow for more design options. They also result in a finished turning that shows no evidence of how the item was held on the lathe.
Yes that does make sense John, or one would end up whit a hole rather than a hold.I have glued pieces on with a "recess" that was less than 1/16", basically to just hold the added piece to stay in place, takes hard ly anything the remove it later, don't even have to glue the whole "recess" as this makes for a strong hold.Two comments:
1) As a hollow-former I always use a tenon and keep the annular ring of the base under 4". I would think a 3"-dia recess maybe 1/8" deep would allow a tenon to be glued on your blank. WEST G-Flex is a great choice for epoxy - especially if the wood and tenon are not bone dry. And remember, gluing an axial grain tenon into a radial grain blank can be challenging - a Baltic birch tenon with a couple of pegs to prevent layer separation might make sense
2) The concise one-line problem statement allowed the above posts to be spot-on.
I have been taught that when somebody looks at your bowl they should not be able to tell how it was held onto the lathe.
I suppose it’s a personal thing and what you get used to. I like to see an elegant foot on a bowl and believe that’s easier to achieve if you start with a Tenon.
That was an interesting read but I’ve highlighted one sentence from it, this is exactly what most turners do, but the skill of the maker is to leave the base as neat as possible. I have no real problem with recesses as such, it’s just when they are unnecessarily big and untidy. A properly removed tenon doesn’t take long and, in my opinion, leaves a superior appearance on the base of a bowl.In fact, the first thing a master potter will do when picking up a piece from another artisan is turn it upside down to read how a piece was made and to see the evidence of the skill of its maker.
I fully agree with your sentiment. I was never taught wood turning either but I’ve picked up a lot since joining a club. It was at the club that a demonstrator spoke about using a tenon rather than recess. I think though that for those starting out a recess is seen as an easier option, particularly when finishing off the base. Once you realise a tenon offers more possibilities, removing a small amount of extra wood is neither here nor there.I'm with you on liking to see elegant feet, Bill, and they are certainly more challenging when held with a recesses as it leaves little wood to support the piece.
Elegant feet are definitely easier to achieve for most turners using a tenon. Also, the extra time required to remount and turn off a tenon and make a finished foot is inconsequential for most turners.
I threw my experience into the discussion for the benefit of any turner who might want to increase their production rate, for whatever reason, and would like to consider doing it the way I do. I know of only a few other turners who do it mostly the same way and the pool of expertise on this is becoming less readily available, so I throw in my experience whenever the topic comes up.
And, I would much prefer to see elegant feet than knowing that a piece was made this way or the other!
Bert Marsh would leave a tenon on occasion. So does Michael Mode. Most don’t.I don’t think you will find a tenon or recess left on any of their finished work.
As this question has come up a time or two, so in 2009 I did post a picture to a recess tool that can be used with the tailstock (I do not have a tailstock on my outboard setup, and start with a faceplate).Bill's scorecard or chart above suggests that recesses are easier to make. I don't agree. Both a tenon and a recess need to be properly made to get a secure hold, so they should probably be scored as the same, but for me, the tail stock gets in the way of making a proper recess. Mounted between centers, there's no getting around the tail stock, and on a screw I worry if it will hold well and safely. A faceplate would be pretty reliable, but I rarely use them. YMMV
bought mine, a dovetail scraper, and works well for mortise and tenon. https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/turning-tools/46297-dovetail-scraper?item=35B0104&utm_source=free_google_shopping&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=shopping_feed&utm_campaign=USA|PLA|PMax|Tools|MidPriceTier&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_aGuBhACEiwAly57McyIxmUdUXnAtyHptlCojU-bJfv2xpQWRQeF4HXUa88M5RMzvcz16hoCmtkQAvD_BwEone could certainly make a nicer one
Looks like you did not get my simple tools use as a recess scraper when the tailstock is in the way.bought mine, a dovetail scraper, and works well for mortise and tenon. https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/turning-tools/46297-dovetail-scraper?item=35B0104&utm_source=free_google_shopping&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=shopping_feed&utm_campaign=USA|PLA|PMax|Tools|MidPriceTier&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_aGuBhACEiwAly57McyIxmUdUXnAtyHptlCojU-bJfv2xpQWRQeF4HXUa88M5RMzvcz16hoCmtkQAvD_BwE
I use a tenon almost exclusively but this seems like one of those things that woodturners say, when the reality is 99 percent of people who buy something have no idea that the foot on the bottom was a recess that was held in a 4 jaw expanding chuck.I have never been taught woodturning either. I have been told by friends that teach classes that by removing the tenon or recess makes the piece look more professional. I have to agree with that. Look at pieces made by the big names out there and I don’t think you will find a tenon or recess left on any of their finished work.
No mysteries just a nicely finished bottom or one that looks like they didn’t care.I sold my bowls at craft shows for over 30 years. The only people that seem to care about 'how the bowl was mounted' are other turners. That whole concept baffles me. Like, there are no real mysteries about mounting a bowl on a lathe, so what difference does it really make? None in my book.
robo hippy
No, I did not. That’s very cool.Looks like you did not get my simple tools use as a recess scraper when the tailstock is in the way.
Here is a better picture of one in use.
View attachment 60388