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Can we talk about making money as woodturners?

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One memory from my days in show business comes to mind, and it deals with pricing. A young woman came by with a box that she had purchased from some one else for a considerably cheaper price than the boxes I was selling. The quality of that box was horrible to be polite about it, and considering that I am rather fussy about my work. I didn't say anything to her about the quality of the box because she was so happy about it. In that case, I have no problem with them charging less for their wares than I do for mine.

robo hippy
 
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Those selling on the “circuit” - What are some of your favorite or most profitable or “I’ve heard this one’s good” shows across the country?

I’ve not done any, but the ones I’ve heard of are
Cherry Creek in Denver
La Quinta in California
Laguna Beach Sawdust Festival
Palm Beach Fine Craft
Art Fair in Jackson Hole
Thunderbird Shows in Arizona

Any thoughts on these or others?
 
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PS - Some people have mentioned, and it's definitely worth seconding: If you do plan on not just selling your work, but trying to run a business, be careful what you wish for. I love turning, mostly - the other activities are on a spectrum. Love talking to visitors/customers (regardless of whether they buy anything), don't mind dealing with photos, okay with record keeping, hate filing tax forms, lousy at keeping everything organized. If the associated activities make you feel like you'd rather be turning, listen to that voice. Even just physically processing enough wood to feed a business is a job in itself. Don't try establishing a business if it's more about keeping up with the turning Joneses. Selling stuff in any sort of professional manner takes a lot of work, and a lot of time away from turning. Finally, some people love the idea of turning their hobby into work. Others feel that it would ruin the love they have for the hobby. I personally have found a level I'm comfortable with. I know for a fact that if I were trying to make a living like this, given my interests (wide) and abilities (limited), I'd be pretty unhappy. Forewarned is fore-armed.
 

Donna Banfield

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PS - Some people have mentioned, and it's definitely worth seconding: If you do plan on not just selling your work, but trying to run a business, be careful what you wish for. I love turning, mostly - the other activities are on a spectrum. Love talking to visitors/customers (regardless of whether they buy anything), don't mind dealing with photos, okay with record keeping, hate filing tax forms, lousy at keeping everything organized. If the associated activities make you feel like you'd rather be turning, listen to that voice. Even just physically processing enough wood to feed a business is a job in itself. Don't try establishing a business if it's more about keeping up with the turning Joneses. Selling stuff in any sort of professional manner takes a lot of work, and a lot of time away from turning. Finally, some people love the idea of turning their hobby into work. Others feel that it would ruin the love they have for the hobby. I personally have found a level I'm comfortable with. I know for a fact that if I were trying to make a living like this, given my interests (wide) and abilities (limited), I'd be pretty unhappy. Forewarned is fore-armed.
Many of the people reading this thread would be surprised (and maybe disappointed) to learn that the turning and surface embellishments I create are often the least amount of time I spend in everything I need to do.
 
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@Donna Banfield , if I was not tied up at the Deerfield holiday sampler in Springfield this weekend I would have driven an hour to Marlboro just to see your work tomorrow! I may never be at your level, but it’s inspiring to see what can be done by a true master.
sometimes a niche is simply a combination of imagination and efficiency.. one of the nautical ornaments i make takes less time to turn than to paint.. about 90 seconds to turn and 2 minutes to paint. hardly high art but this time of year sell them just fine.
 
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That’s all I can do is talk about making money, I sure haven’t made any. It I’ve enjoyed to journey.
 
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I did my first show last weekend at a holiday art market. Had about 30 pieces to sell and thought the cheaper stuff would sell best. Was wrong, sold 6 pieces and 4 were higher end.
Now I'm thinking art show, bring more high end stuff, farmers market bring more utilitarian.
 

Donna Banfield

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Those selling on the “circuit” - What are some of your favorite or most profitable or “I’ve heard this one’s good” shows across the country?

I’ve not done any, but the ones I’ve heard of are
Cherry Creek in Denver
La Quinta in California
Laguna Beach Sawdust Festival
Palm Beach Fine Craft
Art Fair in Jackson Hole
Thunderbird Shows in Arizona

Any thoughts on these or others?
Anyone considering entering the market by selling at shows would be well served to exercise due diligence.

First, try to attend the show in person, to get a feel for the level of vendors. Never rely on the promotor or producer of the show that "you would be a perfect fit or do very well". The producer's goal is to fill the show by selling booth spaces. Whether you do well or not is not his/her primary concern, especially if the show consists mostly of lower end work. When you attend in person, try to talk with a few of the booth holders, but be mindful of their time. Don't try to talk with them if they have customers in their booth. You are keeping them from making a sale. They're more likely to speak with you in the last hour of the show when most of the attendees/customers have left for the day.

Second, if you are unable to visit a show in person (distance is a several hours drive each way), check out the list of vendors, and reach out to them after the show is over. Contact them by email, and ask if they would be willing to spend a few minutes talking with you about the show, quality of customers, etc. Don't limit your query to vendors in your media. Also ask about the number of vendors/booths, the variety of the media, and whether one or two categories seem to dominate the show. For example, many shows limit the number of vendors in specific areas, like metal jewelry or clay, to keep a good balance for customers. Those two categories tend to be the most popular in shows, and if every other booth is a jeweler or ceramicist, that will affect the customer base.

Last, but not least, don't enter a show and make the decision after a single time whether you will do it again or not. This is particularly true if your work is on the higher end. Most buyers/collectors of higher end art will want to see your work for a while before making the investment. You may need to do that show several times before the sales start coming. Yes, I realize that you may not be able to see a profit for the first few times but if you want a collector to invest in you, you need to make the investment as well.
 
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Here's my take on the 50% commission from a gallery (which is a pretty standard split). Sounds like a lot, but consider...
Kudos to you, Dave.

A comment about gallery owners: All are paranoid about "artist end-plays". All that have been in the biz any length of time have had it happen: their client sees a body of work, googles the website, and buys direct.
Hard to have it both ways: Pass out business cards / maintain a website AND have a successful gallery relationship.
The only gallery if been with knows I don't have a website and have never printed a card - they are confident to sponsor a show, fly me up, pay for the room/meals knowing their investment is good. Needless to say, they are much better at promoting me than I'm at promoting me.
 
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My experience is mostly craft shows and no high end at all. Tried a shop with booths but no traffic in that location. Our club demos and sells at the MS Ag Museum and that is mostly sales under 30. Bowls do mot sell well there so a no brainer. I only do one other show which is a Christmas crafts and home goods. That is my best one day of the year. There are some other better venues in this area but I have not done them. Had a great year last year at over 4k but this year is off track. Not doing anything toward the light bill but it is fun and we promote the club which was the main reason we started selling.
 
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Many of the people reading this thread would be surprised (and maybe disappointed) to learn that the turning and surface embellishments I create are often the least amount of time I spend in everything I need to do.
@Donna - would you mind sharing what takes up most of your time concerning selling your work? I’m a big admirer of your work and appreciate your responses!
 

Donna Banfield

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@Donna - would you mind sharing what takes up most of your time concerning selling your work? I’m a big admirer of your work and appreciate your responses!
Marketing: taking images, both in process and completed studio quality. Posting on social media. Making a conscious decision to do that regularly, if not every day, then at least several times a week. Responding to inquiries about your work, prices, do you ship, what credit cards you take, and – key- determining whether the inquiry is legitimate, or a scam. Some are getting harder to make that calculation, until you’ve wasted time responding and the usual give/take.

Applying for shows: Completing applications that require top quality images of the work that you intend to sell in that venue. Most high-end shows jury your entry based on the images of work that you intend to sell. And if you have work in your booth that was not included in your juried images, you will be told to pull that work. All high-end shows want to see an image of your booth. Typically, 5 images of your work, and a booth image. Jurors will spend between 5-10 seconds looking at your images and decide on whether you are out, or whether you are acceptable to move to the next stage of jurying – essentially a culling process. You need to keep track of the show deadlines, and the deadlines in notifications. If you don’t get into one show, that opens up a chunk of your calendar that you want to fill. With another show application. And booths…that is an art in itself. The right display, the correct lighting and color of light, enough lighting, is it easy to set up/break down, and transport without needed to make major repairs/re-painting every time you have another show.

Workshops/club demonstrations/Symposiums: Some start with an inquiry from their end: what can you demonstrate/teach? You supply a list of topics, but they want more. Images, descriptions, skill level target, length of time needed for each topic (which is essential in workshops), and cost. If the discussion goes beyond that, a detailed list of what the participants will learn, key-points, list of equipment needed by attendees, what equipment you will supply, and cost of materials to participants. Regardless of the topic, you will spend time preparing for the demo/workshop/symposium before leaving home, as well as travel to and from which you might get reimbursed for travel expenses, but not the days you spent making pieces in progress (which happens all the time in what I do – nothing can be done in a couple of hours, so I have to make several pieces that show each step) or the travel time getting there and back.

Staying ahead of the curve: I have ideas for new work all the time. But they can’t become marketable work without several iterations of practice, learning the technique, practicing the pattern, finding out what works and doesn’t, trying to remember what worked before and what was a failure – and that is important when your sessions are interrupted by having to pack for a show, travel to the show, set up, sit there for 2-3-5-9 days, pack up and travel home, unpack, make work to replace what sold…Coming up with new work takes more than a few days of practice. The Covid isolation period was a silver lining for me. I had 18 months of my calendar wiped clean of workshops, shows and Symposia. I learned how to carve with a woodburning tip and to apply color using the dry-brush paint method, thanks to Laurent Niclot, who learned from Jacques Vesery. You can learn a new skill in a few weeks, but to really do it well takes a lot of time – uninterrupted time. So, my Wood Ffolkkes sculptures were the result of over a years’ work in the studio, uninterrupted. I have nearly a hundred sample pieces, boards, half carved, multiple painted surfaces that were all not quite successful. Until I got to the point that I was satisfied.

Phew, if you aren’t exhausted just reading about all this work, then you might take that next step…
 
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Collectors are buying a piece of you, and the story you've created, not just the object you created. And if you're really good, those collectors will continue to buy from you. And that takes a lot of time and investment.

This is almost verbatim the advice given to me when I started as a self-employed furniture-maker @Donna Banfield. And it is IME completely accurate. As is all the other advice from you in tis thread (I've never sold a turning, but have some experience in selling other woodwork through a regional wholesale show I attended for some years).
 
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You know, Richard.......I can think of quite a few turners, many of whom are right here posting to these forums......those who've carved out their own niche. All it takes is some creative thinking, and from that point, developing a refined result. There is an infinite number of ways to accomplish this, so it's not limited to anything but one's own imagination!

-o-
"quite a few" is a really small percentage of just the 16,000 members of the AAW. And not including the hundred of thousands across the world who have a lathe and don't join AAW. Lets say quite a few is 50. That means .3% have developed a niche. What is your niche Odie? I've been turning for 38 years, no niche here. If I followed the age old suggestions of develop a niche, keep my prices very high to protect the industry, and never duplicate the technique I paid to learn in a symposium, I would have lost out on thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and have 50 Rubbermaid containers filled in my home. Maybe following those rules would be appropriate for many, but to pay off all my equipment and tooling feels like success to me.
 
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odie

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"quite a few" is a really small percentage of just the 16,000 members of the AAW. And not including the hundred of thousands across the world who have a lathe and don't join AAW. Lets say quite a few is 50. That means .3% have developed a niche. What is your niche Odie? I've been turning for 38 years, no niche here. If I followed the age old suggestions of develop a niche, keep my prices very high to protect the industry, and never duplicate the technique I paid to learn in a symposium, I would have lost out on thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and have 50 Rubbermaid containers filled in my home. Maybe following those rules would be appropriate for many, but to pay off all my equipment and tooling feels like success to me.


You know, Richard......I can't disagree with anything you've stated here......but, I should clarify my own thoughts on what a "niche" is, and how that applies to a few turners that I know of......

A turner has created his/her niche, when they are known by a certain style that is recognizable, and distinctly different from everyone else.

Opposed to this thinking, is someone who makes a few hollow forms.....or calibash bowls......or Christmas ornaments from urchins, etc.,etc.,etc. These things may be very nice by themselves, but there are many other turners who produce these things to a very high degree of excellence.....so, those who make these things may be very good at what they do, but their works are not readily distinguishable from others who do the same things.....so, there is no niche.
What is your niche Odie?

Well.....that is a good question, and I don't think it's up to me to declare that I have a niche. Now, if many other turners can look at my works, and say, without question or hesitation, that odie produced them......then, and only then......I might have a niche. :)

-o-
 
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Well said and it is a matter of first settling on one type or style of turning to have a "niche". There is one person in our club who has one but for the rest of us we turn for the experience. I just like doing different things and that style changes as I see more things I want to add to it. Maybe you could say that 18 years is not enough to create a "niche".
 
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This has been an interesting discussion. If I may, I’d like to add a slightly different perspective. I am a full time turner (in the UK), I’m what used to be known as ‘a jobbing turner’. Basically I’ll make anything I’m asked (and paid) to make. Many of these posts are quite bowl heavy. If you’re a bowl only turner you are missing out on the huge variety of turning that is out there. In 2022 I made about 150 bowls to commission (in 2 production runs), this year hardly any.

I don’t feel that I’m particularly creative but I love turning so rather than making things and then trying to sell them, I let people come to me and ask me to make things. Unfortunately, that does lead to me having to replicate some rather ugly designs from time to time but the joy and satisfaction from the variety of my work is very high.

I hope that angle is of interest

Richard
 
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I don’t feel that I’m particularly creative
I think you are. I’m glad you’re still turning. I’ve avidly followed your series in Woodturning from about 2012. I’ve learned a lot and you write well. (I was given 30 years of the magazine and have been poring over it.). Good to see you on this site.
 
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I don’t feel that I’m particularly creative but I love turning so rather than making things and then trying to sell them, I let people come to me and ask me to make things. Unfortunately, that does lead to me having to replicate some rather ugly designs from time to time but the joy and satisfaction from the variety of my work is very high.

That's exactly what I did for years. I had an extensive metal working shop. Once in a while I'd be asked if I wanted to do some wood turnings. If a machine was available and we aren't too busy with our regular work I'd do them. I never pursued this type work, but it was a nice change of pace. Metal working machinery leaves such a fine surface we didn't do any sanding and no finishing either. I charged below the usual shop rate.

The designs usually came as crude, not to scale, pencil sketches so I had a little leeway in tweaking designs. If the pieces were complicated I'd make a 3D graphic model. Most of this work was done for artists. The most expensive project was the base for a blown glass piece that sold for $64K!!! My favorite, although no wood, is the wall sconce lighting in the Oregon Convention Center where the next symposium will be.

The eye opener for me in this work is how many artists don't actually do the work themselves. I don't have a problem with that since design is the most important element of art IMO. I do wonder what the reaction here would be if a member posted to the gallery and mentioned he/she didn't do the work themselves.
 
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I do wonder what the reaction here would be if a member posted to the gallery and mentioned he/she didn't do the work themselves.
That's an interesting question and one I suspect there will be an answer for, sooner rather than later, considering the growth and availability of A.I. and CNC work.

Im quite sure there will be a market for "art"-ificially created work (assuming it is interesting enough)!
 
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"quite a few" is a really small percentage of just the 16,000 members of the AAW. And not including the hundred of thousands across the world who have a lathe and don't join AAW. Lets say quite a few is 50. That means .3% have developed a niche. What is your niche Odie? I've been turning for 38 years, no niche here. If I followed the age old suggestions of develop a niche, keep my prices very high to protect the industry, and never duplicate the technique I paid to learn in a symposium, I would have lost out on thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and have 50 Rubbermaid containers filled in my home. Maybe following those rules would be appropriate for many, but to pay off all my equipment and tooling feels like success to me.
I don't have a niche, either. However, I'm working on one. I used to practice falconry. My brother still does. I'm going to make him a stand that will hold ~8 falconry hoods, arranged in a circular pattern. So far I have been doing prototypes to see what wood I want to use. Here are some of those prototypes. These are rough. I didn't bother with fine finishing. They are essentially little wig stands. From left to right they are sassafras, dogwood, and 3 in mulberry.

IMG_20231126_141902 (1).jpg

I'll post a picture of the project when I'm further along. Maybe falconry equipment will be my niche.
 
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Kent, that picture reminds me that I need to make a coat rack for my pantry/mud room.... I am thinking probably spheres for hanging coats... If people could say that I have a niche, well, maybe bowls and plates. But getting into one niche would be boring...

robo hippy
 

odie

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If you’re a bowl only turner you are missing out on the huge variety of turning that is out there.

Undoubtedly you are right, Richard.....

For sure, there are other avenues a turner could pursue. Whatever pursuits a turner wishes to focus on is fine, and it's understood that it's an individual's choice.....but, let's not lose focus on the disciplines necessary to produce high levels of refinement in the art of bowl turning.

Except for dabbling in some spindle turning and box making from time to time, I've been exclusively making bowls for the past 41 years......and, it continues to keep my interest peaked. Making high-end bowls is like many things where the more you know, the more you realize you didn't know prior to the point where your knowledge and skills currently are.

Most turners only make basic bowls for a short time, before they progress to other things.....and, there is nothing wrong with that, other than they will miss out on gaining the experience and knowledge necessary to take bowl turning to a higher level of achievement. The reasons for that can be speculated upon, and I have my own beliefs about it, but most turners never get past basic utilitarian bowls that are turned very simply, and rely on power sanding to get a presentable prepared surface, ready for applying a finish. Most turners never fully understand this, because hindsight is the only way to truly see it from a knowledgeable vantage point.

Bowl making is among the most difficult things that can be made on a lathe, and this is because of the cross-grain nature of the discipline, combined with the difficulties of turning and seasoning highly figured and challenging dense woods.....combined with advanced difficult shapes. I suspect these aspects are why many turners eventually give up on bowl turning, because they are only capable of turning simplistic shapes on wood that are easy to turn, using shapes that are easy to power sand. Those that continue to pursue basic bowl turning, usually rely on carving, painting, dying, burning, sandblasting, bleaching.....and a host of other things that can pleasingly present a basically shaped bowl. (Again.....there is nothing wrong with that, because it's understood these subsequent things are also creative disciplines that are open to high levels of refinement......but, I'm mainly speaking here about pure bowl turning where the lathe turned bowl itself is the main focus and appeal of the finished product.)

In today's world, there are very few turners who are willing to take the time, and the associated struggle involved to fine tune their bowl turning skills to a high degree of refinement.....because instant gratification is not within the scope of the effort that is required to take it to that level.

-o-
 
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I think you are. I’m glad you’re still turning. I’ve avidly followed your series in Woodturning from about 2012. I’ve learned a lot and you write well. (I was given 30 years of the magazine and have been poring over it.). Good to see you on this site.
Thank you for your kind words. I’m still at it! I don’t post much on here (I’m usually found on Instagram) but I check in from time to time!
 
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That's exactly what I did for years. I had an extensive metal working shop. Once in a while I'd be asked if I wanted to do some wood turnings. If a machine was available and we aren't too busy with our regular work I'd do them. I never pursued this type work, but it was a nice change of pace. Metal working machinery leaves such a fine surface we didn't do any sanding and no finishing either. I charged below the usual shop rate.

The designs usually came as crude, not to scale, pencil sketches so I had a little leeway in tweaking designs. If the pieces were complicated I'd make a 3D graphic model. Most of this work was done for artists. The most expensive project was the base for a blown glass piece that sold for $64K!!! My favorite, although no wood, is the wall sconce lighting in the Oregon Convention Center where the next symposium will be.

The eye opener for me in this work is how many artists don't actually do the work themselves. I don't have a problem with that since design is the most important element of art IMO. I do wonder what the reaction here would be if a member posted to the gallery and mentioned he/she didn't do the work themselves.
There are definitely more people working to commission in engineering than in woodturning. I do quite a lot for designers (they’re usually a pain in the backside!)
 
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Undoubtedly you are right, Richard.....

For sure, there are other avenues a turner could pursue. Whatever pursuits a turner wishes to focus on is fine, and it's understood that it's an individual's choice.....but, let's not lose focus on the disciplines necessary to produce high levels of refinement for the art of bowl turning.

Except for dabbling in some spindle turning and box making from time to time, I've been exclusively making bowls for the past 41 years......and, it continues to keep my interest peaked. Making high-end bowls is like many things where the more you know, the more you realize you didn't know prior to the time where your knowledge and skills currently are.

Most turners only make basic bowls for a short time, before they progress to other things.....and, there is nothing wrong with that, other than they will miss out on gaining the experience and knowledge necessary to take it to a higher level of wood turning achievement. The reasons for that can be speculated upon, and I have my own beliefs about it, but most turners never get past basic utilitarian bowls that are turned very simply, and rely on power sanding to get a presentable prepared surface, ready for applying a finish. Most turners never fully understand this, because hindsight is the only way to truly see it from a knowledgeable advantage point.

Bowl making is probably the most difficult thing that can be made on a lathe, and this is because of the cross-grain nature of the discipline, combined with the difficulties of turning and seasoning highly figured and challenging dense woods.....combined with advanced difficult shapes. I suspect these aspects are why many turners eventually give up on bowl turning, because they are only capable of turning simplistic shapes on wood that is easy to turn, using shapes that are easy to power sand. Those that continue to pursue basic bowl turning, usually rely on carving, dying, burning, sandblasting, and a host of other things that can pleasingly present a basically shaped bowl. (Again.....there is nothing wrong with that, because it's understood these things are also creative disciplines that are open to high levels of refinement......but, I'm mainly speaking here about bowl turning where the lathe turned bowl itself is the main focus and appeal of the finished product.)

In today's world, there are very few people who are willing to take the time to fine tune their skills to a high degree of refinement, because instant gratification is not within the scope of the effort that is required to take it to that level.

-o-
Forty years of turning bowls would bore me silly I’m afraid, Odie, but I do agree that not many people are prepared to perfect their technique to a high level. You might enjoy my new book on bowl turning, some interesting experimental stuff in there to test the skills.
 

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Forty years of turning bowls would bore me silly I’m afraid, Odie, but I do agree that not many people are prepared to perfect their technique to a high level. You might enjoy my new book on bowl turning, some interesting experimental stuff in there to test the skills.

Richard.....considering your post #60 in this thread, I'm not surprised that you'd be "bored silly" with doing nothing but bowl turning...... :)

....and you're correct. There are many turners who are strictly hobbyists, and just want to make a few nice things for their own self enjoyment. They do not intend to, and are not expected to take it any higher than that.

If you'd like to send me your book, I'll take a look...

-o-

.
 
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I've been exclusively making bowls for the past 41 years
interesting that I’ve collected bowls for about 41 years but waited until this year to start making them—waited till I retired from my career as a surgeon—didn’t want to lose a finger or thumb and end my career early. (Still don’t want to lose one.) Hope it keeps my interest piqued also—bet it will. All I want to do is make bowls.
 

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Oh yes.....I'm sure you're right, Alan. :)

Early on, I did study some books and early VHS videos with great enthusiasm, but I haven't had much interest in purchasing study materials since sometime last century. I visited Richard Findley's website, and I think he is a very accomplished turner in his own right. I'm sure he has a lot of useful information to impart to anyone who buys his book, and I wish him well......but, I'm so deeply involved in the directions I've taken, that I don't want to be influenced away from the paths I'm pioneering through my own personal learning process. Maybe that makes sense, and maybe it doesn't.....but, that's where I'm at these days. ;)

-o-
 
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With the number of bowls I have turned, I never get bored. No clue as to how many, but maybe 15,000... I get asked if I have pieces I just couldn't part with. The answer is no. I can't wait to see what is inside the next piece of wood. Maybe it is the Zen of form, I don't know.

robo hippy
 
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Great discussion!

For clarification, are we talking about making money, or making a living? I make money selling my work, and my prices are high. High enough for me to feel great when they go, so plenty of validation, if not actual income. Mad money, gig money, fun money. Not mortgage money.

We should also clarify whether we’re talking about manufacturing, or craft, or the places where they intersect. A few have talked about their experience as a jobber, making things to order. It’s a lucky and skilled person who has developed the varied skills to work something in metal or wood, or I suppose whatever medium you choose. To analyze a problem, an order, to find the best way to accomplish, factoring efficiency (cost) and wagering that you can satisfy the client with the product. After all, your livelihood depends on it.
The requirement though, in a jobber environment is that the task be done satisfactorily, but probably not done perfectly. Satisfy yourself, whatever that means, and be better than your competition, although too many are satisfied with only being cheaper than brand x, which is all too common and very sad.
I spent 40 years as a jobber, as a mechanic. If you owned a Jaguar, vintage or new, you would want me to keep it going zoom, zoom. Now that Ive retired I no longer need to please anyone, or be so exact and detail oriented. But old habits die hard.

Now, I turn wood, almost exclusively bowls of late. My need to be exacting and critical of my own work didn’t stop with fixing cars. I’ve found that’s just who I am, and how I stay sane. For me, it’s become about the craft, and bowls are a great pallet with which to work. Craft, for me is about refining, perfecting, constant striving, and challenging oneself, in all aspects. Everything from wood selection, orientation, seasoning, tool work, design (to include understanding how the viewer sees your piece, how the eye travels),and execution. Some will take a ‘good enough’ approach to all of the choices, challenges, and make farmers market bowls, which at this point, would bore me to tears. No wonder people ‘move on‘ from bowls.
Others, see all aspects of the craft that can always be improved upon, where the term, “good enough” which translates to, “minimally acceptable” has no place. Craft, to me is all about striving. Striving to make the ‘perfect bowl’. A perfect bowl is one that cannot be improved upon, and the method is surprisingly simple. Just make all parts of it perfectly, with perfect strategy and planning, with no slips of the gouge, torn grain, clumsy designs. I‘ll never make the perfect bowl, but have a great time trying!

A bowl is a great vehicle for excellence of craft because of its simplicity and connection to us as humans. The simpler the bowl design, the more challenging it becomes. One can hide a lot of sins in complexity. An imperfect curve can be mitigated with some texturing or other surface embellishment, or just by having ins and outs. The simple, single curve will show deviations or awkward curve transitions.

So, my thing, my niche is making simple bowls, and making them better. Better than the last, and better than the next guy.
I sell at art shows, the weekend street fairs, always juried shows. I love the response I get from my visitors. They tell me that my work is on another level from the other turners/bowlmakers. We have a nice chat. Some buy, others wish they could afford. Of course some see no difference between mine and theirs, which is fine too. The art teachers stop to chat, because they see my bowls as ‘art’. The responses I receive are plenty enough to keep me working all that much harder toward my goal. The perfect bowl.
 
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It was difficult to read through all the posts, so sorry if I'm repeating other people's opinions/sentiments.

I've been a woodworker for about 50 years and only a woodturner for about 6 of those years. I never made furniture, cabinets, or other wood items for a living and only tried selling them a shows for about 2-3 years. I found that selling at shows was a frustrating and non-profitable venture but, of course, that was when I was novice woodworker and it's possible at least some of my products were not on the highest end of the quality spectrum at that point (even though I am a perfectionist). The real problem for me was that it seemed likely that, for many years, until my work got better, until I gained recognition, until I found some unique products, I wouldn't make enough money to survive.

I started woodturning to help my wife branch out in her polymer clay art pieces by turning small bowls and inlaying them with polymer clay. The small bowls were nice and admittedly would have gotten better and maybe larger over time. However, no matter how many people commented at shows how great they looked, there were few sales. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for that. However, I have found that many people believe that furniture makers, cabinte makers, bowl turners, and woodworkers in general can make and sell work for much less than retail stores. Given the current cost of wood and of all the time and resources involved in shows, there is no way this can be true. Selling online can be equally as frustrating for the same reasons. Finding galleries to sell in may eliminate the resources involved in doing shows, but then you have to deal with the 30% - 50% that the gallery owners tack on for their commissions. That makes the product very expensive and less desirable or at least only desirable to a narrower customer base.

There are a number of woodturners who have made a name for themselves because of their work over a long period of time. I doubt that very few of those woodturners make a living just turning and selling bowls or hollow forms. In fact, I only know of one well-known turner who still makes a living from selling his bowls. Most professional turners make their money from a wider range of work and products, including in-person classes, online live demos or classes, tools that they have designed or have proven track records, associated turning accessories, and YouTube videos, plus maybe some others.

I think a good compromise is to try woodworking or turning in the context of having a regular job and selling at shows or where ever you have a receptive audience. Until you get well-known and are in demand for demos or can put your name on some tools to sell, there isn't a lot of money to be made selling bowls and hollow forms. I'm sure there are some exclusive juried shows that might be profitable, but traveling around the country doing shows is a hard life and, at best, a crap shoot in terms of success; even from year to year. I know because I have watched my wife sell her polymer clay art wildly successfully at a show one year and not do well the next at the same show. I've also watched her try to find galleries and set up a website for online sales with only limited success. It's extremely difficult. Then there is pricing, which really is a whole additional discussion and really can only be described as insconsistent; what appears reasonable to one person isn't to another.

I think it's great if you want to try selling your work. When people buy it, it can be very satisfying. However, if you have a job or are retired on a consistent income, then that might be a good way to go. However, if you plan on depending on the income you make from your sales, I would say your income is very likely to be inadequate to your needs until you gain some recognition for your work. As for buying tools from your profits, I'd guess that you should be ready to wait for a long time to accumulate the money for those tools given the price of tools these days.

This certainly no comment on you work. I don't know what that looks like or is. Your ability to make money from selling your work only partly depends on the quality and is certainly only one of several factors that contribute to your ability to generate significant income.
 
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For clarification, are we talking about making money, or making a living?
When I started this thread, I wanted the replies to cover ALL levels. Very very few could/do “make a living” turning. But I wondered if grossing in the neighborhood of $15,000 per year by doing 4-5 juried shows would be realistic for a reasonably accomplished turner. I have serious doubts about “craft shows” but “art shows” are where this would be possible, I think.

I’ve always believed that wood art is vastly underpriced and under appreciated for the amount of time/skill/motivation it requires. (Especially compared to the abstract painting world!).

I’ve appreciated all the responses here and the willingness of some of y’all to share your pricing and stories from the world of selling. I think the more we all know about this topic, the more we can elevate the art.
 
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From my experiences with my wife's polymer clay art and jewelry, I think it would be difficult to gross $15,000 a year doing 4-5 shows. I'm sure it's possible but you would have to be very selective about which shows you pick. Add to that, the kind of shows you're talking about would be juried. Because there are a lot of variations in the tastes of the people jurying shows and they are not likely to be the same people from year to year, there is no guarantee that you would get in a show multiple years in a row. Juries tend to look for unique art pieces and, therefore, you would need to create at least enough unique pieces to submit with an application to have the best chance of getting in. Then, of course, no single show will generate the same amount of revenue from year to year, based on actual attendance, tastes of those attending, the particular variety of similar pieces, and the general economy at the time. It is not predictable so, in any one year, you could have 1 or more "bad" shows which would reduce your revenue significantly. Plus, it's hard work to set up and staff your spot. When you're young it's OK, but when you age, it becomes more difficult, especially when you have a regular job which occupies you 5 days a week (or more). It's one of those things you need to go into eyes wide open so you know what you're getting into.
 

Donna Banfield

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When I started this thread, I wanted the replies to cover ALL levels. Very very few could/do “make a living” turning. But I wondered if grossing in the neighborhood of $15,000 per year by doing 4-5 juried shows would be realistic for a reasonably accomplished turner. I have serious doubts about “craft shows” but “art shows” are where this would be possible, I think.

I’ve always believed that wood art is vastly underpriced and under appreciated for the amount of time/skill/motivation it requires. (Especially compared to the abstract painting world!).

I’ve appreciated all the responses here and the willingness of some of y’all to share your pricing and stories from the world of selling. I think the more we all know about this topic, the more we can elevate the art.
If I'm not hitting over that mark (grossing $15k) in two shows, I'm not making a living, nor even earning income. After my labor and expenses, cost of doing the show, time spend selling, taxes, I've lost money.
 
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It was difficult to read through all the posts, so sorry if I'm repeating other people's opinions/sentiments.

I've been a woodworker for about 50 years and only a woodturner for about 6 of those years. I never made furniture, cabinets, or other wood items for a living and only tried selling them a shows for about 2-3 years. I found that selling at shows was a frustrating and non-profitable venture but, of course, that was when I was novice woodworker and it's possible at least some of my products were not on the highest end of the quality spectrum at that point (even though I am a perfectionist). The real problem for me was that it seemed likely that, for many years, until my work got better, until I gained recognition, until I found some unique products, I wouldn't make enough money to survive.

I started woodturning to help my wife branch out in her polymer clay art pieces by turning small bowls and inlaying them with polymer clay. The small bowls were nice and admittedly would have gotten better and maybe larger over time. However, no matter how many people commented at shows how great they looked, there were few sales. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for that. However, I have found that many people believe that furniture makers, cabinte makers, bowl turners, and woodworkers in general can make and sell work for much less than retail stores. Given the current cost of wood and of all the time and resources involved in shows, there is no way this can be true. Selling online can be equally as frustrating for the same reasons. Finding galleries to sell in may eliminate the resources involved in doing shows, but then you have to deal with the 30% - 50% that the gallery owners tack on for their commissions. That makes the product very expensive and less desirable or at least only desirable to a narrower customer base.

There are a number of woodturners who have made a name for themselves because of their work over a long period of time. I doubt that very few of those woodturners make a living just turning and selling bowls or hollow forms. In fact, I only know of one well-known turner who still makes a living from selling his bowls. Most professional turners make their money from a wider range of work and products, including in-person classes, online live demos or classes, tools that they have designed or have proven track records, associated turning accessories, and YouTube videos, plus maybe some others.

I think a good compromise is to try woodworking or turning in the context of having a regular job and selling at shows or where ever you have a receptive audience. Until you get well-known and are in demand for demos or can put your name on some tools to sell, there isn't a lot of money to be made selling bowls and hollow forms. I'm sure there are some exclusive juried shows that might be profitable, but traveling around the country doing shows is a hard life and, at best, a crap shoot in terms of success; even from year to year. I know because I have watched my wife sell her polymer clay art wildly successfully at a show one year and not do well the next at the same show. I've also watched her try to find galleries and set up a website for online sales with only limited success. It's extremely difficult. Then there is pricing, which really is a whole additional discussion and really can only be described as insconsistent; what appears reasonable to one person isn't to another.

I think it's great if you want to try selling your work. When people buy it, it can be very satisfying. However, if you have a job or are retired on a consistent income, then that might be a good way to go. However, if you plan on depending on the income you make from your sales, I would say your income is very likely to be inadequate to your needs until you gain some recognition for your work. As for buying tools from your profits, I'd guess that you should be ready to wait for a long time to accumulate the money for those tools given the price of tools these days.

This certainly no comment on you work. I don't know what that looks like or is. Your ability to make money from selling your work only partly depends on the quality and is certainly only one of several factors that contribute to your ability to generate significant income.
i make mostly little ornaments, 70% get painted. spending 2 hours on a perfect finish on 5 sq inches of surface isnt in the near or long term future. however, doing the best I can, the most efficiently that I can, is at least something. That some little token I made is, while not perfect, helping to just slightly brighten their day or season, is the warm and fuzzy that makes it satisfying. the $5 bucks is also nice.
 
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