Bleached wood

[Jason Silva]

Has anyone ever tried using house hold bleach on their turnings? I use the 2 part stuff that is sold at woodcraft but it is expensive and takes a long time to brush it on. I would like to get a gallon of clothes bleach and dip my pieces into it. Will it work?

 

[RandyAlkins]

Use wood bleach (oxalic acid) before you ever use chlorine bleach. It kills the wood fibers. Not sure what the 2 part stuff is, what are you trying to achieve by bleaching? Lighten color or what?

 

[Jason Silva]

Im trying to get this effect.

 

[Betty Scarpino]

Has anyone ever tried using house hold bleach on their turnings? I use the 2 part stuff that is sold at woodcraft but it is expensive and takes a long time to brush it on. I would like to get a gallon of clothes bleach and dip my pieces into it. Will it work?

Jason,
Clorox bleach is a different chemical than the chemicals that are in the two-part wood bleach. Chlorine will not lighten wood all that much.

Oxalic acid is also different from wood bleach. Oxalic acid is usually used to lighten (or even remove) dark stains in wood and will also not really lighten the wood.

So, if you truly want lighter wood, bleached, then you'll need to buy the two-part bleach. The price has increased considerably over the past few years, probably because of environmental laws.

You could try using a small piece of cloth to apply the bleach ... that works much more quickly than using a brush. But it's not as accurate, so if you are only bleaching a small area, a brush (or even cotton swab) is usually necessary. Caution: do not get the bleach on your skin ... wear nitrile gloves and use eye protection. Vinegar is the neutralizer, so keep some handy. (I once had a student who didn't have vinegar, so she used pickle juice, and that worked well.)

If you would like to read an article I wrote about bleaching wood, look at the back issues of the journal, June (I think summer) 1996 issue.

Good luck and have fun! Bleaching is an interesting way to add contrast to many kinds of wood, but not all woods accept bleach the same way, so results will vary. For instance, I have found that bleaching cherry is not nearly as successful as bleaching walnut, maple, or ash.


Betty Scarpino, editor, AW

 

[Jason Silva]

or something like this.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Jason,
Good advice from Betty, I use the two part bleach that Betty showed us at a demo in Cleveland a few years back and it works quite fast. Dead white with most woods with three coats or less depending on the wood. I can bleach a 8 or 9 inch piece with an ounce (1/2 ounce of A & B) easily. Look up that article.
Bill

 

[Rob Wallace]

Wood bleach Chemistry 101......

Hello Jason!

I'll expand a bit on the "what and why" of the bleach chemistry that Betty mentioned in her response.....

Chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite) has an entirely different chemistry than the two part wood bleach you may be using. Hypochlorite generally degrades simple organic compounds, and can be used for removing stains caused by organics found in staining materials like wine, coffee, tea, etc. While it has a bleaching effect on these compounds, it likely will not provide nearly the same effect as a two-part bleach on the many, more complex compounds found in (and in most cases, bound to) the wood.

Oxalic acid can be used for removing water stains or discolorations that involve tannin that is often complexed with iron materials (from nails, screws, etc.) or other mineral-type stains. Since this reaction takes place at lower pH levels, oxalic acid treatment of the wood is generally neutralized by using a mild alkali, such as baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) dissolved in water. It, too, will not effectively bleach the wood like a two-part wood bleach.

In contrast, the two-part wood bleaches (with solutions "A" and "B") are generally some combination of sodium hydroxide (a strong alkali) and hydrogen peroxide (a strong oxidizer) or another stabilized version of a peroxide, which uses reactive oxygen at high pH (generated from the peroxide) to alter the molecular structure of the wood's organic compounds providing the color, rendering them colorless. Due to the chemical characteristics of the relatively unstable peroxide, these wood bleaches must be mixed immediately before use (or on the piece to be bleached), and the "lifespan" of the chemical reaction to evolve the reactive oxygen is fairly short. Thus, reapplication of fresh reactants is necessary for continued bleaching effects. Since this reaction takes place at relatively high pH, the reaction is neutralized with the use of a mild acid, such as vinegar, or apparently even with "adulterated" vinegar such as pickle juice (which has a healthy dose of salt in it!). [For those seeking kitchen-sourced neutralizers, I suppose orange or grapefruit juice would also work, but they may impart their own color - I'd stick with a solution of "white", distilled vinegar.]

As you can see, oxalic acid or hypochlorite bleaches are different animals entirely from the peroxide-based "two-part" bleaches, reacting with different compounds, and under entirely different chemical conditions. One can not replace another.

I hope this helps a bit.....

Rob Wallace

 

[Betty Scarpino]

Thank you, Rob for the expanded (and excellent) explanation. Your write up reminded me of a demonstration years ago when someone in the audience asked for the specific chemicals in wood bleach. I started to answer (at the time I knew the ingredients), and then someone else in the audience yelled, "it's part A and part B ... let's get on with the demonstration." Made me laugh ... some folks want just the A/B info, some want more.


Betty Scarpino, editor, AW

 

[Jason Silva]

Ha! Thank you both for the in depth lesson in wood bleach. I was hoping to cut a few corners but looks like im going to have to continue to do it the hard way.

I love the contrast between ebony and bleached wood...

 

[john lucas]

Glad to know the formulations. I'll go with the Part A and Part B. Even though it tells you it has a very short life I can usually get the better part of a day and 3 to 5 applications out of one batch. I mix the A and B together and just go for it. That's not how the instructions say to use it but it works.
I have also not used a neutralizer and it still works. Haven't had a problem with finishes that I can tell. I've had that same quart size batch of bleach for many years and it still works.
My point is, I also tried t save money using Chlorine bleach. It doesn't work. I've gotten way more than my money's worth out of the real stuff.
I actually think Betty may have been the first person I saw who bleached work and go me into it. The first piece I ever got into a major show was a hand mirror made of Wenge that was bleached. The dark streaks do not bleach and the chocolate brown streaks do so it looked more like Zebra wood when it was done.

 

[J. Paul Fennell]

A year or so ago, the woodworking supply stores here in the Phoenix area discontinued carrying the PartA/B wood bleach, previously available in a 2-quart box.

On the internet I found that Klean Strip makes and sells this product, only in gallon sizes, so for about $90.00 you'll get a gallon of Part A and one of Part B. The only problem is that is is shipped, and you'll pay some hefty charges for shipping 2 gallons of hazardous chemicals.

Looking at Klean Strip's MSDS's (Material safety data sheets), the two parts are Hydrogen Peroxide and Sodium Hydroxide, respectively. I found an industrial janitorial supply company locally in Phoenix that sells these chemicals as cleaners/degreasers for about $5 a gallon, and in the concentrations similar to Klean Strip. For me, they worked as well as the expensive stuff.

Needless to say, I'm a little leary having the better part of two gallons of toxic chemicals in my shop, and I take care that they are stored properly. Having said all of this, if you use Part A and B wood bleach, please take all the necessary protective precautions--pretty potent stuff.

 

[John Van Domelen]

This topic came up previously, below is my previous post on this - if you are trying to bleach wood on a budget, here is what I do:

------------------------------------------------------

I make my own wood bleach. Get 40 or 50 volume H2O2 from the beauty supply house ( sold as developer for hair color - get the clear) and Red Devil Lye from a grocery or hardware store - make up 3 percent or so solution of the lye in water (measure the water first - add lye to the water - wear good eye protection and gloves - the solution will get hot). Use a glass or plastic container for this - NOT METAL.

Paint or rag this solution onto the wood to be bleached - will turn a funky yellow color. Allow to dry.

Paint or rag on (use a different brush or rag) some of the peroxide.

I have used this with success on lighter woods (maple, holly etc) - not tried it on darker woods yet. But the price is right - less than 10 bucks. It may take several applications to remove stubborn stains or darker spots

The chemical reaction between the high pH lye and the H2O2 releases oxygen that causes the bleaching action.

Neutralize with a weak vinegar solution after bleaching if desired.

Disclaimer - use at your own risk, not responsible if you do something stupid. These are strong chemicals - be respectful of them and be careful.

 

[KurtB]

Saw this on Klingspor's website Monday. Cannot say yay or nay about it, but it comes in a more convenient size. Lite N Up wood bleach:

http://klingsporswoodworkingshop.blogspot.com/

 

[Dean Center]

I don't have any experience bleaching wood, but I have some experience with bleaching and chemicals in other contexts. There are some important safety issues, as mentioned above, that warrant emphasis.

Pay close attention to the instruction to add the chemical to the water, rather than doing it the other way around. It can be extremely unsafe to mix a small amount of water into a strong acid or alkali.

I cringe when I hear the suggestion to neutralize alkalis with an acid. Mixing an acid and an alkali will give off heat, as Rob says, and it can be considerable. If it's a chlorine bleach, it may also liberate chlorine gas that will damage your lungs and take months to heal.

High pH solutions and chemicals, most famously lye or Drano or Red Devil, are extremely dangerous if they get in your eye. Your eye and your emergency room can deal far better with acids than with alkalis. If you get a strong alkali, such as we are discussing, in your eye, it can turn the clear surface into milk and the only treatment is a cornea transplant.

I don't mean to talk anyone out of making good art, but if you decide to use these products, be aware of the unique hazards.

Dean

 

[bonsaipeter]

This topic came up previously, below is my previous post on this - if you are trying to bleach wood on a budget, here is what I do:

------------------------------------------------------

I make my own wood bleach. Get 40 or 50 volume H2O2 from the beauty supply house ( sold as developer for hair color - get the clear) and Red Devil Lye from a grocery or hardware store - make up 3 percent or so solution of the lye in water (measure the water first - add lye to the water - wear good eye protection and gloves - the solution will get hot). Use a glass or plastic container for this - NOT METAL.

Paint or rag this solution onto the wood to be bleached - will turn a funky yellow color. Allow to dry.

Paint or rag on (use a different brush or rag) some of the peroxide.

I have used this with success on lighter woods (maple, holly etc) - not tried it on darker woods yet. But the price is right - less than 10 bucks. It may take several applications to remove stubborn stains or darker spots

The chemical reaction between the high pH lye and the H2O2 releases oxygen that causes the bleaching action.

Neutralize with a weak vinegar solution after bleaching if desired.

Disclaimer - use at your own risk, not responsible if you do something stupid. These are strong chemicals - be respectful of them and be careful.

John:

I used 40 volume (12 percent) hydrogen peroxide hair color "developer" on walnut with very good results. It took 4 application of just pre-mixed hydrogen peroxide and sodium hydroxide solutions to strip all of the color out of the walnut.

Peter

 

[bonsaipeter]

A year or so ago, the woodworking supply stores here in the Phoenix area discontinued carrying the PartA/B wood bleach, previously available in a 2-quart box.

On the internet I found that Klean Strip makes and sells this product, only in gallon sizes, so for about $90.00 you'll get a gallon of Part A and one of Part B. The only problem is that is is shipped, and you'll pay some hefty charges for shipping 2 gallons of hazardous chemicals.

Looking at Klean Strip's MSDS's (Material safety data sheets), the two parts are Hydrogen Peroxide and Sodium Hydroxide, respectively. I found an industrial janitorial supply company locally in Phoenix that sells these chemicals as cleaners/degreasers for about $5 a gallon, and in the concentrations similar to Klean Strip. For me, they worked as well as the expensive stuff.

Needless to say, I'm a little leary having the better part of two gallons of toxic chemicals in my shop, and I take care that they are stored properly. Having said all of this, if you use Part A and B wood bleach, please take all the necessary protective precautions--pretty potent stuff.

Hi Paul:
I read with interest your comment about obtaining from a local industrial janitorial supply company 1 gal. solutions of sodium hydroxide and hydrogen peroxide in concentrations similar to those found in Klean Strip's Wood Bleach product. I looked up the MSDSs for the Klean Strip Wood Bleach and it states the concentrations are between 3-7 percent for the sodium hydroxide (Part A) and between 25-30 percent for the hydrogen peroxide (Part B). I called several industrial janitorial supply companies local to me, Roanoke, VA, and could find products containing only up to 5 percent hydrogen peroxide. Since it's impractical for me to purchase the hydrogen peroxide from the Phoenix company where you obtained yours, would you please let me know the brand and product name of the hydrogen peroxide you bought so that I can contact the company and ask them who in the Roanoke area distributes their products.

Thanks, Peter

 

[Nate Davey]

Hair bleach you can buy in a beauty supply store or hair salon is 40% hydrogen peroxide and cheap.

EDIT, sorry missed Bonsaipeter's post

 

[Wipedout]

What kind of woods ...

To expand on this topic of bleaching can anyone tell me what woods work best? Or have most intersting results? What woods do not respond?

Any and all advice would be appreciated

Thanks

Robert

 

[KurtB]

Robert,
One of the most interesting effects is with box elder. The bleach can lighten the main wood to almost white, while leaving the red streaks almost completely red to light red. From what I've experienced, it takes 2-4 washes with the bleach to get the max effect.

 

[Mike Brazeau]

For those interested in the chemical details of various agents, there is an excellent US Forestry publication at http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn165.pdf