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Wolverine can o' worms

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I tried to open this can of worms in an earlier thread, and nobody took the bait. But @john lucas posted the following in the Newbie forum, and I didn't want to hijack that thread, so let's see what happens here. John's experience:
"What I find is the angle of the arm on the Wolverine affects the side grind or the wings. Changing that shifts how far back the wings grind and somewhat how acute the cutting edge is. Then nose angle also changes the wings a little so you kind of have to deal with both. For a while I played with the length of the moveable arm when I was building my own jigs. That didn't seem to matter much unless you were really trying to be exact in matching a grind."
I do not have an "original position" on whether it's the leg of the fixture or the setting of the V-pocket that influences the side grind, and I'm starting this thread to get information, geometry? physics? math? I'm not sure, but I'd like to wrap my brain around this. My sharpening guru states that the gouge-holding fixture dictates the nose angle but does not affect the side grind, and the side grind is influenced by the set of the V-pocket.

It will help, if you choose to do any 'splaining, that you use distinct terms: perhaps "fixture leg" for the adjustable part of the gouge-holding fixture, and V-pocket, which is self-explanatory.

Thanks for indulging me.:D
 

john lucas

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The distance of the V arm and the adjustable fixture leg affect the wing shape. As you change the V arm length it changes the nose angle of course but also changes the wing angle. Adjusting the fixture arm does not affect the nose angle but does change the wing angle. The way I achieve what I want from scratch is to use John Jordans method for hand grinding a bowl gouge with swept back wings. You grind the nose angle you want. then draw on the side of the gouge the wing angle you want. Put the flute against wheel and hand grind this wing angle. Then you hand grind the sides until the flat that you created by grinding to the marker line is gone. then you just blend the side into the nose. Well that's the hand grind method. If you that and get close to what you want it's pretty easy to Set the V arm to the Nose grind and then play with the fixture arm until you match pretty closely what your wing shape will be. You may have to play with the V arm and the extension of the tool from the Wolverine to really nail a grind but most of the time you can leave that set to 1 3/4" or what ever you use. Hope that makes sense.
 

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There is a lot of interaction as John said so when you change one adjustment with the Varigrind, it affects the other two adjustments. The important thing is to have an orderly procedure for getting a particular shape or else you could wind up grinding the tool away if randomly twiddling with the adjustments.

To me, setting the nose angle first is the most important because it would be a waste to get the desired wing shape if the nose angle was far off from what you want. I do this by adjusting the Wolverine V arm. Of course, you need a starting angle for the Varigrind leg and a starting protrusion distance for the nose of the gouge. The middle notch on the V arm scale is close to 45° and seems like a good starting point. I start with a protrusion of 2" just because that is what the setting happens to be for the Ellsworth grind.

The second adjustment is setting the length of the wing. While adjusting the leg angle is the main way to accomplish this, it is important to remember that the jig is for setting the angles and you are in full control the shape by paying attention to the amount of metal removed. In general, for a "bottom feeder" profile, move the Varigrind leg forward (towards the nose of the tool). If you want a pointy shape on the gouge similar to the long pointed Cindy Drozda spindle gouge then move the leg back in the direction of the tool handle. . Clearly, any adjustments to the leg means going back to set the nose angle again

The distance that the tool protrudes from the Varigrind jig affects thickness or thinness of of the wings. But, again, you also control this to a certain extent by the amount of grinding that you do on the wings.
 
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Adjusting the fixture arm does not affect the nose angle
At any given "set" of the V-arm, it seems to me that adjusting the fixture arm certainly does affect the nose angle. At my early stage of simply following directions, I use a set distance for the V-arm and two different leg positions depending on whether I'm grinding a spindle gouge or a bowl gouge (two different nose angles). About a month ago, I adjusted the V-pocket distance just a tad, and got wings that I liked a bit better.

I'm waiting for someone to overwhelm me with a geometric explanation of how all this works.:p
 
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But, in general, for a "bottom feeder" profile, move the leg forward (towards the nose of the tool) and move the leg towards the tool handle. If you want a pointy shaper like a long pointed Cindy Drozda spindle gouge.
Could you proof that Bill, I think I know what you mean, but there must be a punctuation/capitalization glitch there.
 
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The 'Gee, I'm a Tree' of the wings???? Couldn't help it, high school teacher... I can offer no help on the jig since I only platform sharpen...

robo hippy
 

Odie

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The 'Gee, I'm a Tree' of the wings???? Couldn't help it, high school teacher... I can offer no help on the jig since I only platform sharpen...

robo hippy

Since I'm "evolving" away from the vari-grind jig, towards the traditional grind almost exclusively, I'm staying clear of this discussion, as well.
 

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Since I'm "evolving" away from the vari-grind jig, towards the traditional grind almost exclusively, I'm staying clear of this discussion, as well.

:D :D :D

So you posted in the thread to say that you aren't going to post in the thread? :p That's OK the topic will probably drift off sooner or later into something else like which CBN grit is the best. I don't use the Varigrind very often but it is comparable to the gouge jig for the Tormek.
 

Bill Boehme

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Could you proof that Bill, I think I know what you mean, but there must be a punctuation/capitalization glitch there.

Can I blame it on my iPad? :D It has a mind of its own and seems to think that it knows better what I want to type.

UPDATE: I found a boat load of spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors so I revised the whole thing. My description might not make any more sense, but at least the spelling and punctuation should be correct.
 

Odie

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:D :D :D

So you posted in the thread to say that you aren't going to post in the thread? :p That's OK the topic will probably drift off sooner or later into something else like which CBN grit is the best. I don't use the Varigrind very often but it is comparable to the gouge jig for the Tormek.

Yep, I guess you could say that, Bill! :D
 
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Since I'm "evolving" away from the vari-grind jig, towards the traditional grind almost exclusively, I'm staying clear of this discussion, as well.
Odie, I was telling the president-elect of our club about your Etsy store, and he was trying to find it on his phone. Ooooops, I told him "old eccentric guy", then after I took his phone and investigated, discovered it's "eccentric old guy" -- much better to have "old" secondary to "eccentric.":D:D

I've reserved my store, just trying to get enough stuff made to stock it. Totally missed my October 1st target, oh well.
 
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UPDATE: I found a boat load of spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors so I revised the whole thing. My description might not make any more sense, but at least the spelling and punctuation should be correct.
Much better now! It will save anguish on some caffeine-deprived future reader, if they really need to understand your message.:cool:
 

Bill Boehme

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Ooooops, I told him "old eccentric guy", then after I took his phone and investigated, discovered it's "eccentric old guy" -- much better to have "old" secondary to "eccentric.":D:D

Would it be more correct to say someone is an old dirty man or a dirty old man? :D :eek:
(assuming that old and dirty apply in both cases)
 

Odie

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Odie, I was telling the president-elect of our club about your Etsy store, and he was trying to find it on his phone. Ooooops, I told him "old eccentric guy", then after I took his phone and investigated, discovered it's "eccentric old guy" -- much better to have "old" secondary to "eccentric.":D:D

I've reserved my store, just trying to get enough stuff made to stock it. Totally missed my October 1st target, oh well.

Hi Jamie......good to know that the wording order is critical for finding my store......didn't know that. o_O

Be sure to let us know when you get your shop up and running......anxious to see it! You are such an enthusiastic turner.....it's been interesting to see you evolve, and your constant asking of questions is great for inspiring forum participation. :D
 
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I tried to open this can of worms in an earlier thread, and nobody took the bait. But @john lucas posted the following in the Newbie forum, and I didn't want to hijack that thread, so let's see what happens here. John's experience:
"What I find is the angle of the arm on the Wolverine affects the side grind or the wings. Changing that shifts how far back the wings grind and somewhat how acute the cutting edge is. Then nose angle also changes the wings a little so you kind of have to deal with both. For a while I played with the length of the moveable arm when I was building my own jigs. That didn't seem to matter much unless you were really trying to be exact in matching a grind."
I do not have an "original position" on whether it's the leg of the fixture or the setting of the V-pocket that influences the side grind, and I'm starting this thread to get information, geometry? physics? math? I'm not sure, but I'd like to wrap my brain around this. My sharpening guru states that the gouge-holding fixture dictates the nose angle but does not affect the side grind, and the side grind is influenced by the set of the V-pocket.

It will help, if you choose to do any 'splaining, that you use distinct terms: perhaps "fixture leg" for the adjustable part of the gouge-holding fixture, and V-pocket, which is self-explanatory.

Thanks for indulging me.:D
The DVD by Kirk DeHeer helped me....his gigs are easy to make, and everything is adjusted just right.......title...."sharpening demystified" .......he is out of Utah....his rotations locally, regional, and national. Good stuff, he does not make it difficult, but a little more than the 40/40 grind.
 
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I’ve heard it told both ways but I am in the V arm determines the wing angle and the fixture leg determines the nose angle camp.

Wing angle to me is the angle of the cutting edge of the wing, not the angle of the wing as viewed from the side (profile). Given that the protrusion remains the same, and if we can agree that one adjustment affects the other, then my demonstration and explanation on the Ellsworth, Irish, swept back etc. bowl gouge goes something like this.

Grinder is off, this is just a visual demonstration. With a gouge (in this case a bowl gouge) in the fixture with the protrusion you normally use and the fixture leg clamped about midway (forth notch from the top give or take) set the fixture leg in the V pocket with the gouge nose touching the wheel and the handle in line with the wheel, now, move the V pocket in and the nose moves up the wheel making the nose angle more acute, move the V pocket out, the nose moves down the wheel and the nose angle becomes less acute. Move the V pocket back in so the gouge nose is above the center of the wheel, lock the V pocket, loosen the fixture leg and with the fixture leg still in the V pocket nose to grinder, handle away, pivot the gouge nose up the wheel, the nose angle becomes more acute, and, less acute when you pivot the nose down. Ok, so both of those two adjustments positively affect the nose angle.

Now, with the gouge still clamped in the fixture, leg clamped about midway and in the V pocket, roll the gouge onto its left wing. Move the V pocket so that the original wing bevel is in full contact with the grinding wheel. From this position, loosen the wing nut on the fixture leg, pivot the nose up or down the wheel and observe (from the side) that even though the wing bevel changes, it does not change vary much. As the wing moves up the wheel, the cutting edge moves slightly away from the wheel, as the wing moves down the wheel, the heel moves away. Clamp the fixture leg so the bevel is back on the wheel. Now, move the V pocket in or out, the wing angle changes a lot. As the V pocket moves in the gouge moves up the wheel, the wing angle becomes more acute, or, in other words the wing stands up straighter in relation to the gouge. If the V pocket is moved out, the gouge moves down the wheel and the wing angle becomes less acute, meaning the wing rolls in, or over, in relation to the gouge. So, all things considered, while moving the V arm does change both angles, moving the fixture leg changes only one of the angles significantly more (the nose) then the other (the wing).

This is how I set up to grind a bowl gouge on someone else's grinder. I set the nose angle with the fixture leg, and the wing angle with the V pocket. The shape or profile of the wing is determined by me. It can be, short, long, straight, or slightly crowned depending on how far over the fixture is rolled and how long I dwell on any one part of the wing. Once the nose angle is set (approximately) with the fixture leg, the gouge is rolled over to the wing and the wing angle is set by moving the V pocket in or out depending how rolled over or straight up I want the wings. Now the nose angle will have to be readjusted, again with the fixture leg, but not as much as before. Now the wing is off a bit, the gouge is swung back on the wing and readjusted, again with the V pocket. Now back to the nose, readjust. Back to the wing, readjust. Once, twice, three times? Whatever it takes.

A very acute wing angle means the wings are thin and more vertical, for me that would be a catchy gouge. Wings that are less acute means they are more rolled over and are less catchy (for me). To view this, hold the gouge in front of you with the nose pointing up, looking straight into the flute. Looking at the tip of the nose you cannot see the bevel, it is underneath the nose. On either side of the nose, if you cannot see bevel, the wings are very acute and more straight up (V arm closer to wheel). If you see lots of bevel, the wings are rolled in (V arm farther from wheel). How straight up, or how rolled over is personal preference and a tradeoff.

Another variable is the profile, Straight? Curved? Or next, how far back to grind the wing? Half inch? An inch?? Inch and a half???

As Odie states, it’s the results that count. This is what works for me and may or may not fit someone else's understanding, however, I’m always learning and open to suggestions or clarifications…


cc
 
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Odie

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Google to the rescue:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=oldeccentricguy

Can't fool those guys, they know EVERYTHING about you (and me, and the rest of us)

I see they still have my Amazon shop listed. I closed that shop earlier this year.

Google just might know a few things about you that isn't so! I can remember one time I googled "burka" because I didn't know what it was. For a long time after that, I was subjected to google ads for Muslim fashions. I quite often get ads strictly intended for women......I think it's because my name is more commonly a woman's name.......
 
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Sorry if this gets a bit long but here goes-my method/opinion only. I have tried to simplify my sharpening as much as possible. I only use the Wolverine/Varigrind system for 2 tools-side grind bowl gouge and a detail/spindle gouge. My V-arm never changes position and my Varigrind never changes the leg angle and the “stick-out” of the tools never changes. The basic setup came from a graphic from David Ellsworth where he shows the pocket of the V-arm 7” out from the face of the wheel and 4” below it. Oneway recommends a “stick-out” or how much the tool projects from the Varigrind of 1 ¾”, Ellsworth says 2”, I use about 2 1/8” because the gauge I use has gotten worn over the years. The leg on the Varigrind is about in the middle of the slot and the nut is tightened with pliers so it never moves. I made a set-up tool so I could reset my V-arm if it happens to get moved but I try not to ever change it. My basic bowl gouge is then done with this setup to achieve a fairly standard sweptback grind that is very versatile. To do my detail/spindle gouge I simply add a 1” piece of wood (with a magnet-idea from Lyle Jamieson) to the V-arm pocket and use the same setup otherwise. All my other tools I do freehand with a very simple process. Not sure this is at all clear, but I have been doing this for a long time with good results. I realize you don’t know me as I don’t post much so you can take all this with a grain of Aluminum Oxide. My system works and is very simple. I have tried to distill what I have learned from many other turners down to the basics and keep it as simple as possible. I hope this helps somewhat. Grinding does not need to be complicated. I did recently take a 2 day class with Stuart Batty and I am in the process of evaluating his technique to see if it is something I should pursue and incorporate into my skillset.
 

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I realize you don’t know me as I don’t post much so you can take all this with a grain of Aluminum Oxide.

Don, you are one of the original members on the AAW forum. And, while I don't recall much anymore, I do recall frequently seeing you on the forum when I joined in January 2005. Number of posts has nothing to do with value of contribution. Several members in my club are mostly lurkers and post once in a blue moon. I wish that they would post more often because they have a wealth of knowledge to contribute.
 
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I drilled and pinned my Vari-Grind jig so it couldn’t be changed. I use it in the shop the same way Don does, bowl and spindle gouges, and the leg never changes. But then I found out that most grinders were not set up quite the same. From the Woodcrafts I’ve visited, to turners shops and schools, each grinder has enough variables that I had to unpin to save tool steel. I travel, and when I do, if possible, I carry a turning kit and Don Geiger’s Vertical Solution. Not sure what mod it is but it was one of my earlier sharpening investments and I’m sure it has saved inches of steel. One of the things Jamie asked about was the variables of the Wolverine system and their relationship to each other. Visiting other turners shops I’ve seen some interesting bowl gouge grinds, some work, some don’t. Sometimes the grind started out good but “drifted” bad over time. Being able to discuss the hows and whys of the various parts of the system can help a turner better understand the roll each variable plays in the nose geometry and how to bring back a bad tool, or how to keep a tool from going bad in the first place.
 

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Clifton I drilled my Wolverine but didn't pin it. At home I just insert a 1/8" drill bit in the two hole and lock it down. Then it never moves in my shop. When I teach quite often we have to move it to match students tools but since it's drilled it's very easy to get back to the original position. What I do at home is to use V blocks of various sizes to drop into the V arm for different tools. This way the V arm is locked in one position and never changes. I got a really cool locking device from Don Geiger that fits on the V arm and guarantees it will lock in the position I want.
 
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I like the drill bit idea to reposition the leg after a trip. Thanks for that. I took the locking device to mean something that is slid onto the V arm itself, moved up to the clamp block and locked down after the arm is set, so the V arm can be removed and replaced to the same position. I have a one inch locking collar that would have been perfect, cept it's half a smidgin too small. I think I'll take a chainsaw file and file four grooves to fit. That would also mean that the collar wouldn't rotate, a good thing I think, and then get a longer set screw or maybe a thumb screw...Small things for sure, but a big help...
 
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Now, with the gouge still clamped in the fixture, leg clamped about midway and in the V pocket, roll the gouge onto its left wing. Move the V pocket so that the original wing bevel is in full contact with the grinding wheel. From this position, loosen the wing nut on the fixture leg, pivot the nose up or down the wheel and observe (from the side) that even though the wing bevel changes, it does not change vary much. As the wing moves up the wheel, the cutting edge moves slightly away from the wheel, as the wing moves down the wheel, the heel moves away. Clamp the fixture leg so the bevel is back on the wheel. Now, move the V pocket in or out, the wing angle changes a lot. As the V pocket moves in the gouge moves up the wheel, the wing angle becomes more acute, or, in other words the wing stands up straighter in relation to the gouge. If the V pocket is moved out, the gouge moves down the wheel and the wing angle becomes less acute, meaning the wing rolls in, or over, in relation to the gouge. So, all things considered, while moving the V arm does change both angles, moving the fixture leg changes only one of the angles significantly more (the nose) then the other (the wing).
Eureka!!! That is the direction I wanted this thread to go (if not a geometric explanation, an empiric demonstration)! I will now divulge the name of my sharpening guru, which I'm sure John L. already guessed -- David Schweitzer. He doesn't make a big deal about it on the video, just mentions in passing the role of the fixture setting affecting the nose, but not much on either side of it.

Thank you Clifton!! A couple of times, I took a stab at doing what you describe, but I didn't take it far enough. Your description makes complete sense to me, and that's what I'm gonna run with.:D
 
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I did recently take a 2 day class with Stuart Batty and I am in the process of evaluating his technique to see if it is something I should pursue and incorporate into my skillset.
Oh, he swept me off my feet in a 2-hour demo at one of the local clubs (Olympia, WA). After a couple of conversation with seasoned turners, I understand that 40/40 grind doesn't work on everything, but his approach still appears well worth learning.

I wish that they would post more often because they have a wealth of knowledge to contribute.
I do too! Tell them to get their be-hinds over here!
 
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:D :D :D

So you posted in the thread to say that you aren't going to post in the thread? :p That's OK the topic will probably drift off sooner or later into something else like which CBN grit is the best. I don't use the Varigrind very often but it is comparable to the gouge jig for the Tormek.

I'm just posting in this thread to say that I'm not going to post in this thread either. Except I'm not going to post on the varigrind AND I'm not going to post on The best CBN grit. :D
 

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Odie, I was telling the president-elect of our club about your Etsy store, and he was trying to find it on his phone. Ooooops, I told him "old eccentric guy", then after I took his phone and investigated, discovered it's "eccentric old guy" -- much better to have "old" secondary to "eccentric.":D:D

I've reserved my store, just trying to get enough stuff made to stock it. Totally missed my October 1st target, oh well.

Be sure to post your store name when you open, will you?
 
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