Wishful thinking lathe comparison

[Bill Luce]

Something I have been thinking about again that I would find very interesting is to get together the top lathes in the same room with the same spindle threads.

With lots of wood to trash, our own tools to use, etc.

The back to back comparisons using the same pieces of wood would be so educational and the real differences between lathes would be much more apparent. Sort of like back when mag tool reviews actually reviewed tools. Now they are all to careful to be honest because the tool makers ads are their income.

Perhaps certain issues I wonder about could be better understood with real world comparions.

They include:

How much does the spindle bearing style matter in terms of spindle performance? I mean in terms of spindle smoothness at a range of rpms, esp higher rpms while working. Not talking rocket science, just how well does the lathe spin things....

The VL300 are adjustable (for preload) taper roller, many lathes are angular contact ball bearings, and for example the AB is regular ball bearings and cannot be preloaded. With the direct comparisons I could better figure out if I thought it mattered to me.

Steel vs cast iron ways:

Most of the very best full time bowl turners I know (e.g. RR, MM, GL, SB) turn on cast iron machines and strongly feel that they are prone to less vibration. By having the various lathes in the same room so conditions could be duplicated, that could be better put to the test.


The main lathes I would want to spend the day with would be the vl300 long bed, the MT400 and the AB but to round out the mix for comparisons I would include an old bearing style 2436 and maybe a 4224 in the mix to have another cast iron ways machine to compare.

I know it will never happen, but what fun it would be. Naturally opinions would differ, but all that matters is that we each get the best lathe for our own styles. Each person could decide for themselves which they like best.

 

[john lucas]

Bill I was thinking that the same thing could be done with the top tools, DWay, vs Thompson, Vs Glaser, and whatever else anyone thinks is tops. However that would be a bear to do because you would really need 3 or 4 turners turning lots an lots of pieces with each tool and then do a joint comparison.
In reality it might not prove much because they are all so good you could do any turning you want with any one of them.

 

[davidwalser]

Bill,

I agree that it would be nice to be able to test each of the several top-of-the-line lathes side-by-side-by-side. That's one of the reason I like attending symposiums or taking a class at somewhere like Craft Supplies USA (which, at the time I took a class there, used several different lathes in the classroom).

One of the most impressive things I ever saw was the Serious Wood Lathe on display at the Desert Woodturning Roundup a few years ago. They had a large out of balance blank spinning on the lathe without tailstock support. On top of the headstock, they had a stack of a child's wooden blocks spelling out "SERIOUS". Those blocks didn't wobble. Better, while I as discussing the lathe, I casually laid my hand onto the tailstock end of the lathe bed. I couldn't even tell the lathe was on. "Smooth" doesn't begin to describe that lathe!

Still, I would have loved to mount a similar out of balance load onto a Vicmark, Oneway, Robust, Stubby, etc. It would have been an interesting experiment.

Of course, the relative ability to handle an out-of-balance load without vibration, while important, is not the be all and end all. I don't turn too many large out of balance items, so I might prefer the Vic to the Serious (assuming the Serious does handle out of balance loads better than the Vic) because I liked something else about the Vic more. Or, perhaps, like Robbo Hippy, I might come to find the ergonomics of a sliding headstock essential, so I might eliminate the Oneway, Vic, Serious, etc., from consideration.

I suspect that once you get to the top quality lathes, each of us would find we prize different ones for different reasons. Which is why it would be so nice to be able to compare for myself each lathe side-by-side. I'm afraid your opinion of which lathe was the best of the best wouldn't carry any more weight with me than my opinion would with you. Sure, I'd value your opinion and might even rely on it if I couldn't do the comparison myself, but I'd prefer to do the test myself.

 

[Bill Luce]

Bill,

I agree that it would be nice to be able to test each of the several top-of-the-line lathes side-by-side-by-side. That's one of the reason I like attending symposiums or taking a class at somewhere like Craft Supplies USA (which, at the time I took a class there, used several different lathes in the classroom).

One of the most impressive things I ever saw was the Serious Wood Lathe on display at the Desert Woodturning Roundup a few years ago. They had a large out of balance blank spinning on the lathe without tailstock support. On top of the headstock, they had a stack of a child's wooden blocks spelling out "SERIOUS". Those blocks didn't wobble. Better, while I as discussing the lathe, I casually laid my hand onto the tailstock end of the lathe bed. I couldn't even tell the lathe was on. "Smooth" doesn't begin to describe that lathe!

Still, I would have loved to mount a similar out of balance load onto a Vicmark, Oneway, Robust, Stubby, etc. It would have been an interesting experiment.

Of course, the relative ability to handle an out-of-balance load without vibration, while important, is not the be all and end all. I don't turn too many large out of balance items, so I might prefer the Vic to the Serious (assuming the Serious does handle out of balance loads better than the Vic) because I liked something else about the Vic more. Or, perhaps, like Robbo Hippy, I might come to find the ergonomics of a sliding headstock essential, so I might eliminate the Oneway, Vic, Serious, etc., from consideration.

I suspect that once you get to the top quality lathes, each of us would find we prize different ones for different reasons. Which is why it would be so nice to be able to compare for myself each lathe side-by-side. I'm afraid your opinion of which lathe was the best of the best wouldn't carry any more weight with me than my opinion would with you. Sure, I'd value your opinion and might even rely on it if I couldn't do the comparison myself, but I'd prefer to do the test myself.

David,

I agree with everything you said. But wouldn't it be interesting to be able to compare lathes back to back with the same pieces?

 

[Charlie Knighton]

i agree that woodturners would welcome a test/rotation, but to have more than 10 individuals taking part would not work, and onlookers would just have to take someones conclusions

the vendors of the high end lathes would most certaninly relish a comparsion, but would probably insist on their representative/turners and their own wood blanks

not sure if aaw would sponser such a comparsion, i have noticed plenty of ads in our magazine, i suspect ads are not tests

maybe one of the woodturning schools that have all the different lathes might want to play one weekend

 

[Dick Sowa]

Hmm...very interesting concept. I suspect it would have mixed reviews, for several reasons. First, all top of the line lathes will do the job asked of them...and then some. For the average turner, it probably will make little difference what iron they use. Second, every piece of machinery has idiosyncrasies that users become accustomed to and learn to accommodate, take advantage of, or work around. The result is that you can produce the exact same quality turning with virtually any of the top line lathes. Where they REALLY differ, is in the things that are truly unique about them...ex: the mass of the lathe, the diameter of the vessel that can be safely spun, etc, etc.

I would be more interested in hearing what lathes the REAL experts and top turners have chosen to use.

 

[Odie]

Hmm...very interesting concept. I suspect it would have mixed reviews, for several reasons. First, all top of the line lathes will do the job asked of them...and then some. For the average turner, it probably will make little difference what iron they use. Second, every piece of machinery has idiosyncrasies that users become accustomed to and learn to accommodate, take advantage of, or work around. The result is that you can produce the exact same quality turning with virtually any of the top line lathes. Where they REALLY differ, is in the things that are truly unique about them...ex: the mass of the lathe, the diameter of the vessel that can be safely spun, etc, etc.

I would be more interested in hearing what lathes the REAL experts and top turners have chosen to use.

I have no doubt there is much truth to be found in Dick's post here......

There probably isn't any premium lathe that a few top turners aren't using, so what makes one particular lathe the best choice for one turner, may not hold true for other turners.

Heh,heh,heh......next time I win the lottery, I'm going to buy all the best lathes and through the process of elimination, I'll find "the" lathe that's best suited for me! 😀

In the mean time......I'm perfectly satisfied with my 20yr old Woodfast lathe! 😉

(This is the original high quality Woodfast lathe, manufactured in Australia, and not to be compared to the recently produced Chinese "Rikon Woodfast" version.)

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

I just returned from a weekend at SWAT and got to see a number of lathes in action (Oneway, Powermatic, Robust, Vicmarc, Stubby, ...). My opinion is that it boils down to personal preference. You can't get quantitative answers to questions about bearing ruggedness, iron vs. steel, etc. by playing around with a piece of wood on the lathe.

I ordered a Robust AB a few months go and picked it up at SWAT. I based my choice on things like basic design, workmanship, smoothness of operation, perceived ruggedness, quality of materials used, useful features, and comfort in using the machine. During the symposium, Johannes Michelsen used my lathe to demo his line of turning tools and hat turning course. He turned two or three hats during the symposium and always had a crowd to see both his work and the lathe in action. I overheard a number of comments about how quietly and smoothly the lathe ran. There was also a lot of comments about Johannes' amazing skill as he turned a hat to about 1/16" thick (for a miniature, the hat was much thinner than that).

I chose the Robust over a Stubby and Oneway, but that doesn't mean that it is better for everybody -- it just means that it happened to fit all of the things that I thought were important to me. 🙂 🙂

Now that I have it at home in my shop ... uh, I mean "studio", I have just been looking at it because I am recovering from surgery and can't do any actual turning for another week or so. Sigh. 🙁

 

[John Torchick]

Interesting idea! Sort of like Car and Driver comparing cars. One thing that came to mind (had lots of room) is- are some of the lathes made the same except for paint and minor cosmetics or the brands mentioned different in all aspects? Just curious.

 

[MichaelMouse]

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/wood-lathe.html In case you ever doubted. The question is whether the differences are merely a paint job and nameplate.

Durability is the quality I most value. What some count as "features," even "essentials" don't make a lot of difference if you don't use them. For example, I don't stall a one horse on 16 inch chunks because I don't try to bully the wood, so ponies would certainly not be a player for me.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Interesting idea! Sort of like Car and Driver comparing cars. One thing that came to mind (had lots of room) is- are some of the lathes made the same except for paint and minor cosmetics or the brands mentioned different in all aspects? Just curious.

No, the only place where you might possibly find that would be in the cheapest store brand or no-name lathes.

 

[MichaelMouse]

No-name junk like http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/328944347/HM_1642_Variable_speed_wood_lathe.html

 

[KellyDunn]

Bill, I think given a full day a consensus could be had. But the kicker is what the turner is used to turning on. And the turners style of turning. Some lathes will standout as junk in comparison. So you saying top of the line is good. Our club has the big Jet and its not a bad lathe. Its not my oneway but it will do just fine. I have not turned on a pile of lathes but my two best of the ones I have turned on are OW and Vicmark. My least I have turned on at a symposium. Woodfast. But as has been said take lighter cuts. In comparison to the two others the woodfast was junk to me.

 

[Steve Worcester]

.... Our club has the big Jet and its not a bad lathe. Its not my oneway but it will do just fine. I have not turned on a pile of lathes but my two best of the ones I have turned on are OW and Vicmark. My least I have turned on at a symposium. Woodfast. But as has been said take lighter cuts. In comparison to the two others the woodfast was junk to me.

I too think it would be subjective. You state that the Jet is a not a bad lathe, but I am guessing not what you would or do turn on full time (actually I know that answer 🙂). Nor I either. I have demoed on nearly every lathe imaginable, but would probably only think about a handful of those to purchase. For a day or so, it works fine. But you and I (and others) have learned what we like and are willing to pay for it.
This would be an interesting room at a symposium, each of the big dudes with their lathes lined up so you, the prospective buyer can use it and ask the questions pertinent to your work and styles.

 

[Bill Boehme]

..... Still, I would have loved to mount a similar out of balance load onto a Vicmark, Oneway, Robust, Stubby, etc. It would have been an interesting experiment.

Of course, the relative ability to handle an out-of-balance load without vibration, while important, is not the be all and end all. I don't turn too many large out of balance items, so I might prefer the Vic to the Serious (assuming the Serious does handle out of balance loads better than the Vic) because I liked something else about the Vic more. Or, perhaps, like Robbo Hippy, I might come to find the ergonomics of a sliding headstock essential, so I might eliminate the Oneway, Vic, Serious, etc., from consideration.

I feel much the same as you do about turning large out of balance pieces of wood. How the wood and lathe interact boils down to the mass properties of the lathe and the wood (mass and cross products of inertia) and not some mystical property of the label or paint. Turning a large out of balance piece of wood without the need to chase the lathe around the shop is nice, but the more rock-solid the lathe, the greater the load on the bearings. You can't fool Mother Nature into giving you something for nothing. The lesson: the more massive and rock steady the lathe, the greater the necessity for heavy duty bearings. This means that comparing bearings on lathe A and B is not a simple straightforward process. In some respects it is a bit like an apples and oranges comparison.

..... I suspect that once you get to the top quality lathes, each of us would find we prize different ones for different reasons. Which is why it would be so nice to be able to compare for myself each lathe side-by-side. I'm afraid your opinion of which lathe was the best of the best wouldn't carry any more weight with me than my opinion would with you. Sure, I'd value your opinion and might even rely on it if I couldn't do the comparison myself, but I'd prefer to do the test myself.

I think that you have touched on the essence of how we perceive the "goodness" of a lathe (or to be more exact, which lathe we wind up buying). I also think that first impressions carry much more sway than we may be readily willing to admit because we would really like to believe that such decisions are the result of our unbiased objectivity. Certainly we will cull things when the consensus says something is junk. Beyond that, the process becomes more influenced by what we subconsciously (or consciously) want and the rest of the process tends to become justification of that decision.

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... This would be an interesting room at a symposium, each of the big dudes with their lathes lined up so you, the prospective buyer can use it and ask the questions pertinent to your work and styles.

I think that the lathe manufacturers would be hard to talk into such a deal -- not because they don't have confidence in their product, but because some BNTWWAKAR (big name turner who we all know and respect) might be having a bad day (or good day, depending on point of view)and implicitly endorse (or dis) a particular lathe. Such an event has the potential to proclaim an unofficial "winner" based on casual comments that may not necessarily have that intention. Besides that, a number of top name turners are affiliated with various lathe manufacturers.

 

[Darryl Fective]

All I know is my Powermatic 4224 has been nothing but problems. I really wish I had bought something else.

 

[John Torchick]

Bill B., message received and understood. Thanks for the clarification. I understand that the higher quality lathes are manufacturer specific rather than inexpensive clones.

 

[hockenbery]

A structured Lathe comparison is an intriguing concept.
The obvious venue would b the AAW Symposium, Utah, or possibly SWAT.

The AAW symposium reflects the popularity of lathes among our invited and selected demonstrators.
This is by no means a test or comparison and many demonstrators have financial or emotional ties to the lathe makers or distributors.
Supplying lathes costs the vendors money. They of course hope to sell them but too much of late they have been shipping unsold lathes home.

I get to turn on most of the lathes at demonstrations and workshops. This gives me a feel for the machines but classes and demos rarely get close to the limits of the machines. Demonstrators rarely turn large pieces, run the lathe wide open, or test their own abilities in a demo.

The lathes we would use for AAW demo rooms, based on demonstrator requests would typically be:

6 ONEWAYS, 3 POWERMATICS, 2 each of. VICMARC, ROBUST, STUBBY.
we have difficulty getting Vicmarcs and usually have only one and sometimes none.

We also get requests for JET, VB Every 2-3 years.

In the past six year I think we had 1 request each for General and Nova.

So what is the best production lathe????

Al

 

[KellyDunn]

Al, I am going to suggest the best production lathe is one you use. When my daughter Rachel and I do demos on the lanai at my wife Linda Dunns gallery I use a jet mini and Rachel uses a very old carbotec. Rachel has been turning on that Carbotec since she was seven so she makes that little lathe sing. And I can burn out small items on the jet mini. But in the studio Rachel likes my big oneway, as do I. But she has production items that can only be made with the carbotec. Here we have a woodworker with a central location so he lets us use his shop to hold demos sponsered by both sides of the island. He has a very old General lathe. The only complaint turners who demo on it have is the banjo is hard to get to stay still. Other than that the names signed on that lathe are pretty much a whos who in the field. Jimmy Clewes worked for a day on our big Jet lathe. His only real complaint was the tool rest was to high for his style of turning. And he worked with it wide open most of the time. And unless you walk into a room with your lathe or one you have used many times your hand wants to reach for dials and handles you are used to. I have noticed even with myself that it takes more than a few hours to get used to things being in different places than what you are used to. Now when our ex prez walks up to that lathe he is perfectly at home as he owns one just like it. So his movements are fluid. So I would guess each reader of this has the best production lathe.

 

[hockenbery]

Kelly,

What I meant was "mass produced lathe" as opposed to custom made.

Some machines do fit some work better than others.

That said I think my favorite of all lathes to use is a ONEWAY 1018.
For a few years I did a lot of christmas ornaments,. some pens and other high end gifts.
The 1018 had an Inmate feel for getting close to the work, quiet, fast, light tailstock..

Then one year it seemed like a chore to make ornaments for a show. I didn't and the hollow form show did quite well and now I just work on the big ONEWAY. The 1018 gets used in ages classes but it just doesn't fit our work.

Al

 

[ebrannon]

There are both objective and subjective components

I made the decision a few years ago to make the leap and buy my "dream" lathe (ie I took cost out of the calculation). I narrowed my choice to 5 high quality lathes. Based on criteria I developed, I rated each lathe, and narrowed the list to 3. Then I gave each a try to see how they felt. What I ended up buying was NOT one of the three, but one of the ones I had taken off my list. The reason was the subjective aspects, and how it "felt" in action and also how it fit my personal aesthetic. The one that came out on top "using the numbers" I almost purchased. I had called the dealer directly and even had a quote in my hand. Given the cost, I decided to take a course and use it for a few days. I was surprised what I found. I did not really fall in love with it. It was a very fine machine, but... if I am going to spend this much, I really need to "love" the dang thing.

Woodturning is a craft, and at the high end, a real art form as evidenced by the work that is being produced today. Just incredible stuff. So, comparing side by side would be great for potential buyers (almost can do it now at the AAW symposium) and narrow your choice to your top ones. Then find someone who will let you use their lathe and give it a go. See what you really love.

Bottom line for me, technical criteria are only part of the decision. It is like getting married. In the end, it is a mystery. But we each make decisions differently, but I am glad I ended up were I did, and have not looked back.

Maybe at the next big show I will have a wondering eye.

 

[robo hippy]

In comparing the steel vs cast iron lathes, I turned on a PM 3520A for 8 years, and my Robust Beauty for 3 plus years. The only real difference as far as vibrations I have noticed is that they made different noises. For most stability when turning, I would expect a wide footprint, and weight would factor in most. For long lasting, then super heavy duty bearings and a good motor would be most important. Outside of that, it is like all other aspects of woodturning. We all have our favorite ways of doing things.

Maybe I could fill the hollow tube with sand for vibration dampening.

All of God's children are different, and some of us are more different than the others.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... The 1018 had an Inmate feel ....

I'm glad to see that you learned a useful skill while in the slammer. 😀