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will carbide tools replace current HSS gouges?

J

Jerry Bailey

Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Messages
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Location
Boulder City, NV
had this piece of nicely spalted maple 11 x 5 , and a brand new bowl gouge with 15 degree bevel
really like the gouge and how it worked with the wood, shaping outer bottom of bowl,
but was getting quite a bit of tear out, as I expected from working with wet wood
also got a new 6pc set of carbide tools, decided to give them a try.....
gotta tell you, am highly impressed with their cutting, and the cleanliness of the cut
did the whole interior of bowl in under 10 minutes, and not a single tear out at all, the carbide just ripped thru the piece, cutting thru butter ......
if using the bowl gouge, would have taken me well over 1/2 - 1 hour to get it right, and who knows if I'd have tear out to contend with.
The carbide cutter was just so smooth, it was truly effortless.

So, as technology advances, and new tools become available, do you think these carbides will eventually replace the HSS gouges we now know and use ???
Or will these just be a passing fad and fancy?

Comments ?
 
I have been using a hunter carbide inside goblets and it beats anything else I have ever used.
Sand with 320 and I may be degrading what I did with the hunter.

I have seen nothing in the carbide market that comes close to matching what a side ground bowl gouge can do in hands that have had a week long class with a good teacher. The carbides may dominate the scraper market. One of the big issues with HSS scrapers is the maintenance of the burr which last any anywhere from 10-89 seconds of use before it is dull. The carbides could easily dominate the scraper market. They stay sharp for a long long time. Your description sounds like a scraper application. I often use a scraper in a shear angle on Punky wood.

I've been watching an expert with the easy wood tools at the Tampa wood working show the past two days. The guy is an excellent turner but he is selling easy wood tools so he's using them to to do whole bowls. Next door we have had Don Geiger, Don Watson,Ron Browning turning with bowl gouges.
The score card on bowl gouge vs easy wood on open green wood bowls
Speed of wood removal. - HSS bowl gouge
Smoothness of surface. - HSS bowl gouge
Easy on the body - HSS bowl gouge
Safe position if the turner - HSS bowl gouge
Reshaping the tool when needed - HSS bowl gouge

Really hard to use the carbides very far over the rest when hogging off wood.
And the body has to take the force to keep it level.
With the side ground gouge most folks can work 2-4 " over the tool rest and still have the tool rest take all of the force.
Experienced folks can work 6+ inches over the tool rest.

Who knows what might come along.
Al
 
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One more comment
there was a time when it would take me an hour and half maybe two hours to rough an 11x5 bowl.
and maybe it would be 7x3 when it was done. 🙂

after a couple of classes with Liam O'neill and David Ellsworth
20 minutes to rough that size bowl.

problem woods I would add 5-10 minutes as a I stiffen the wood with water or thin shellac.

al
 
You mentioned a brand new bowl gouge, almost every new bowl gouge I have bought needed sharpening because the factory edge is not a real cutting edge like I put on my gouges when I sharpen. I really don't ever believe the carbide tools will replace the HSS gouges for people who have truly learned how to use one. Please don't get me wrong carbide scrapers, the hunter tool cutters all have a wonderful place in our arsenal of tools but once someone has learned the finer aspects of using a regular HSS bowl gouge I believe they will like me, always go for the regular gouge except in those instances where the carbide is more useful. The one thing I will say for the carbides is that in many cases it allows the beginning turner to turn out a piece way before they probably could have going the self taught route like I did. Not everyone can afford nor has access to professional classes. I feel a new turner truly needs to create pieces that inspire him or her to keep turning. I think the carbides have opened a door for the new turner that has before this taken quite a while to get through in the past. But please let me be clear on this one point there is nothing to compare to the feeling you get when you actually begin to master the standard HSS bowl gouge. For this reason I would encourage all turners who haven't mastered the bowl gouge to keep working with it until you get there because it is worth it.
I will use whatever tool I need to use to finish a project and would expect others too also, but don't give up on the tried and true skills of wood turning.
 
The carbide tipped tools are scrapers. Nothing more. I tried some once, and while nice, my dear departed Irish Grandma would come back and haunt me if I used a tool with a cutter that was designed to throw away rather than sharpen. There is nothing that I have seen that can be done with one of them that can't be done with conventional scrapers. They are easier to use for most just because of the smaller size. Scrapers are an ideal tool for heavy roughing on bowls. One of my You Tube clips is turning a bowl with scrapers, type in robo hippy.

robo hippy
 
Thanks for the replies, and the opinions 🙂
maybe my thinking will drastically change after this week (have next 3 days spending with Jimmy Clewes)
I just couldn't believe the difference in the cut I was getting with the Carbide, compared to the bowl gouge.......
was 1st time I tried the carbide (been sitting in drawer for last month) and was impressed with cleanliness of cut .
I even tried a couple different scrapers I normally use, same result 😕

Breck, I always sharpen/shape my gouges when new, knowing they don't come prepared from factory
using CBN wheel which gives me the ultimate edge to work with.
and I leave jig setting in place so I can resharpen when tool gets dull while working on a piece.

And like Al, when working with punky woods like spalted maple, I also use a thinned shellac (30%) to stiffen up the grain
even then I was getting tear out compared to the carbide.
 
As a Hunter tool fan I do have to say they definitely have their place. I use them often for finish cuts and use several of them for hollowing smaller vessels. However I'm with the others. I love a bowl gouge. YOu can do almost anything with one. If you have 2 and sharpen one with a more blunt angle you can do the bottoms of steep bowls. I use the Hunter for that. I'm not a fan of the flat topped carbide tools. Right from the factory they aren't bad but they just don't cut as clean after a few bowls. And they especially don't cut punky woods clean. I use a freshly sharpened bowl gouge and if that doesn't work I go to the Hunter tools for those punky woods. If that doesn't work then I go to the lacquer or CA glue to help firm up the fibers.
I do agree there is virtually no learning curve with the flat topped carbide tools although you get a pretty good catch if you lower the handle too far. the Hunter Hercules and Osprey tools are about the same in that you just stick it into the wood and start shaping.
What others haven't mentioned is steering the bowl gouge. Using the handle to guide the tip (and rub the bevel) gives you very minute control of the shape. It's very easy to swing around a bowl and using your body and the handle you can get a really nice smooth arc. With scrapers it's more difficult because if you push in at all while pulling or pushing the tool you can change the shape and get a lumpy surface. Richard Raffen of course uses a scraper to finish the inside but then he also has a million hours of practice. A properly controlled bowl gouge will give you a beautiful arc and clean cut.
 
robo hippy said:
..... There is nothing that I have seen that can be done with one of them that can't be done with conventional scrapers....
Click to expand...

I would wholeheartedly agree if it weren't for one piece of post oak burl that I turned to make a hollow form. Post oak is hard and full of silica anyway, but this burl had a large void in the center that was full of ebony-black wood that I assume must be pith wood tat seemed nearly as tough as the steel. I worked on it occasionally for several years, but I got tired of resharpening scrapers as soon as they touched the wood. When I got a couple carbide tipped hollowing tools, I was finally able to turn it, but even with carbide I wore out one carbide tip and about 80% of another one.
 
I need to make some of these, but it is called 'the big ugly' tool. Cold rolled bar stock, with 1/8 inch thick tangung silver soldered onto the end. I prefer 1 inch wide or 3/4 inch wide. Used by the coastal Myrtle wood turners for so long, no one knows who first came up with it. The Tangung is a cast metal that is almost as hard as carbide, but is easy to sharpen on standard wheels. Holds an edge for much longer than V10 steel. I will be trying stellite as well, which is the cutting tip on the Woodcut coring system.

I guess I look at carbide tipped tools the same way I do shot filled handles. I just don't understand the appeal.

robo hippy
 
Dwight, sorry that was a typo, my mind was elsewhere, the new bowl gouge I was referring to is actually 50 degrees 😱

John, I have yet to use the square edged carbide, something about that shape just doesn't sit right with me
usually use the larger round tip. But do like to others for the profiles they have.......

Bill, good to hear that there is some good times to use the carbides LOL

Guys, don't get me wrong, I usually am using the HSS bowl gouges for my work
but with the amount of tear out I was getting with the spalted maple even with a coat of thinned shellac, I just had to try the carbide
and the cut impressed me so, so I thought I'd see how ya'll felt about them
guess I know now LOL 😉

robo, what would that tool you're referring to be used for
got a pic I can see, cause I sure can't picture it in my mind ..........
 
robo hippy said:
I need to make some of these, but it is called 'the big ugly' tool. Cold rolled bar stock, with 1/8 inch thick tangung silver soldered onto the end. I prefer 1 inch wide or 3/4 inch wide. Used by the coastal Myrtle wood turners for so long, no one knows who first came up with it. The Tangung is a cast metal that is almost as hard as carbide, but is easy to sharpen on standard wheels. Holds an edge for much longer than V10 steel. I will be trying stellite as well, which is the cutting tip on the Woodcut coring system. I guess I look at carbide tipped tools the same way I do shot filled handles. I just don't understand the appeal. robo hippy
Click to expand...

Where do you buy your tautung? I use it for my hollowing scrapers. Used to be able to get it from MSC 1x6x 1/8. I have been unable to find it in their online catalog.
I have only one 2 " piece left?
Thnx
Al
 
I get tantung when I ride my bicycle up really really big hills. My tongue is hanging out all the way up. Tried putting sunblock on but it tastes terrible. 🙂
 
robo hippy said:
.... tangung silver soldered onto the end....
Click to expand...

hockenbery said:
Where do you buy your tautung? ...
Click to expand...

robo hippy said:
Al,
These are the people who make it ....
Click to expand...

I spent the last hour searching because somebody kan't spill tantung wurth a flip. But, my Googling might have turned up some useful information anyway. I was wondering why, if it is so good, hardly anybody in the woodturning world knows about it. It appears that it might be a powdered metal alloy containing cobalt for hardness and toughness. The only problem is that breathing any dust from sharpening cobalt alloy steel could possibly lead to health problems. Breathing any dust from a grinder is bad, but it appears that this might be worse than just bad (badder than bad?).

One of the search results that I found said that cobalt was used in some part of the process of a brewery in Canada (I don't recall the details and not sure where I saw it). While all living organisms need trace amounts of cobalt, apparently greater amounts than a trace can be very bad -- especially in this case where it created a condition that came to be known as "beer drinkers cardiomyopathy".
 
john lucas said:
I get tantung when I ride my bicycle up really really big hills. My tongue is hanging out all the way up. Tried putting sunblock on but it tastes terrible. 🙂
Click to expand...

Well, at least you can spell it.

I'm not sure that I can say much good about your jokes though. 🙄
 
Oops, typing error on my part. Spell check can't spell it either. At least spell check doesn't argue with me with Hippy any more..... You would think I would know...

Al, I do have some 1/8 by 3/8 by 6 inch pieces. I want to try to retip some McNaughton blades. I will get back to them eventually. Not sure if the tool would be worth making for reselling or not. Traditionally is is a do-it-yourself tool. 6 inch by 1 inch by 1/8 inch thick piece was over $60. I am looking into the silver solder method. They use a tape, that is thicker than normal, and is a couple $ per foot. That would make for an expensive tool, but considering what some pay for the carbide tipped tools, it might be in line.

robo hippy
 
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Bill Boehme said:
I spent the last hour searching because somebody kan't spill tantung wurth a flip. But, my Googling might have turned up some useful information anyway. I was wondering why, if it is so good, hardly anybody in the woodturning world knows about it. It appears that it might be a powdered metal alloy containing cobalt for hardness and toughness. The only problem is that breathing any dust from sharpening cobalt alloy steel could possibly lead to health problems. Breathing any dust from a grinder is bad, but it appears that this might be worse than just bad (badder than bad?). One of the search results that I found said that cobalt was used in some part of the process of a brewery in Canada (I don't recall the details and not sure where I saw it). While all living organisms need trace amounts of cobalt, apparently greater amounts than a trace can be very bad -- especially in this case where it created a condition that came to be known as "beer drinkers cardiomyopathy".
Click to expand...

Sorry about my sorry spelling. Can't blame that one on Apple.

Tantung was used in the Stewart hollowing systems as the material used to make the teardrop scrapers.
The last time I bought tantung a tear drops cost $35 each and 1x8x1/8 parallel cutter was $35 from MSC.

I make 8 teardrops from the cutter.
Takes a half hour to make 2.

So this is bad stuff to work with.
 
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robo hippy said:
Al,
These are the people who make it, main place is down in Florida. Their stock of it is random.

http://vrwesson.com/distributors.php?country=usa&state=oregon

The Stellite is very similar, and it is made in Canada. I had an address a while back, and need to find it again.

robo hippy
Click to expand...

Reed. It was originally Deloro Stellite but I see it has been bought by Kennametal. We used it as welding rod for hard surfacing hog hammers. Should be available in the US.
Fishin season coming up soon??
 
I'll have to spend some time looking it up. The Thompson Powdered metal tools have cobalt in them I'm pretty sure. I think even High Speed Steel does. The Cobalt gives the tool toughness to reduce chipping. You can only get so much Cobalt in the steel by melting it. With the powdered metal steel you can get more cobalt which in turn makes them tougher. Will have to do some research but right now need to get back in the shop and quit playing on the computer.
 
john lucas said:
I'll have to spend some time looking it up. The Thompson Powdered metal tools have cobalt in them I'm pretty sure. I think even High Speed Steel does. The Cobalt gives the tool toughness to reduce chipping. You can only get so much Cobalt in the steel by melting it. With the powdered metal steel you can get more cobalt which in turn makes them tougher. Will have to do some research but right now need to get back in the shop and quit playing on the computer.
Click to expand...

The Thompson tools use vanadium. If it has cobalt, it isn't much compared to tantung.

EDIT: just checked and CPM 10V does not contain cobalt and neither does M2 HSS.

Al, if the average time to make a teardrop scraper is fifteen minutes then maybe buying them at $35 a pop isn't that bad. I bought a teardrop scraper from Steve Sinner and he said that it was"special" hard material that made them better than the HSS Sorby scrapers. I don't recall what I paid, but I remember thinking that it had better be "special".
 
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Bill Boehme said:
The Thompson tools use vanadium. If it has cobalt, it isn't much compared to tantung. EDIT: just checked and CPM 10V does not contain cobalt and neither does M2 HSS. Al, if the average time to make a teardrop scraper is fifteen minutes then maybe buying them at $35 a pop isn't that bad. I bought a teardrop scraper from Steve Sinner and he said that it was"special" hard material that made them better than the HSS Sorby scrapers. I don't recall what I paid, but I remember thinking that it had better be "special".
Click to expand...

Woodturners seem to be two sided in terms of frugal and generous. I know turners who spend $50 to save 5cents on a sanding disc and then turn around a give $100 tool to a friend that can't afford to buy it.

While it doesn't save much money if you put value on time. I sort of enjoy making them. And more important to me is I can shape them more rounded than the commercial tear drops and Hollowing bars made by my friend CA Savory work better with slightly larger scrapers.

Al
 
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robo hippy said:
The carbide tipped tools are scrapers. Nothing more. I tried some once, and while nice, my dear departed Irish Grandma would come back and haunt me if I used a tool with a cutter that was designed to throw away rather than sharpen. There is nothing that I have seen that can be done with one of them that can't be done with conventional scrapers. They are easier to use for most just because of the smaller size. Scrapers are an ideal tool for heavy roughing on bowls. One of my You Tube clips is turning a bowl with scrapers, type in robo hippy.

robo hippy
Click to expand...

They aren't all scrapers, but there needs to be some delineation. Cabide is the cutters metal, not the profile. The problem woodturners have is they are stuck with carbide cutters from other industries (and with a logical monetary reason). We get scraper type blades (from Byrd tool et all) used for planers as what most people would refer to scraper blades like an Easy Wood, and then the others (wide open) uses cutters used in Aluminum and plastics manufacturing. These are typically the polished round cutter bits with a gullet. (At least only the more polished versions function properly in woodturning). The gullet acts (in our case) as the flute and the issue is the flute isn't deep enough for chip ejection and the bite. The bite is indicative of the depth of cut you would get from a gouge. They just aren't there, and with pretty good reason. Wood is less predictable in it's material identification to the cutter and it's density (unlike the metal or plastics) and there isn't a large enough market segment to cast them specific for the woodturners market. One of the problems is for a good cut we would want a micrograin carbide for it's ability to take a good cut and leave a clean surface like an M2 (or PM) gouge. A cast carbide gouge, wouldn't hold a good edge. To hold the good edge, it would have to be a "cast" micrograin carbide that holds a real fine edge, but is real brittle. I don't know any woodturners that have the ability or tooling to regring the edge to a factory grind that would be required to grind out a chip from a rock or worse.

Having used everything from HSS to Tantung G to M4 or V10 and then to carbide, they all have a place but most are limited with what we have available to us.

So to answer the question of will carbide replace the gouge you use today, not likely until new less costly manufacturing processes are available.
 
robo hippy said:
I need to make some of these, but it is called 'the big ugly' tool. Cold rolled bar stock, with 1/8 inch thick tangung silver soldered onto the end. I prefer 1 inch wide or 3/4 inch wide. Used by the coastal Myrtle wood turners for so long, no one knows who first came up with it. The Tangung is a cast metal that is almost as hard as carbide, but is easy to sharpen on standard wheels. Holds an edge for much longer than V10 steel. I will be trying stellite as well, which is the cutting tip on the Woodcut coring system.

I guess I look at carbide tipped tools the same way I do shot filled handles. I just don't understand the appeal.

robo hippy
Click to expand...

The current crop of carbide scrapers appeal to a large segment of new woodturners who just want to poke and stroke and remove wood. They remove the wood in a fast fashion with what they currently feel is an acceptable finish. As you get further along in the process, it is no longer acceptable. Too much sanding (feel the waves of the grain from early to late wood). And now they need to learn to use a bowl gouge, a new learning curve, but eventually, much better results.

Shot filled handles dampen the micro shocks and tool jump, but that goes away with better tool control in my opinion also. I use the lightest handles I can find now, I want to feel everything from the tool (Bosch handles).

It isn't a bad thing, but another segment in the learning curve.
 
robo hippy said:
The carbide tipped tools are scrapers. Nothing more. I tried some once, and while nice, my dear departed Irish Grandma would come back and haunt me if I used a tool with a cutter that was designed to throw away rather than sharpen. There is nothing that I have seen that can be done with one of them that can't be done with conventional scrapers. They are easier to use for most just because of the smaller size. Scrapers are an ideal tool for heavy roughing on bowls. One of my You Tube clips is turning a bowl with scrapers, type in robo hippy.

robo hippy
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more Robo.

They are nothing but scrapers & require very little skill in operating compared to spindle & bowl gouges.

Col
 
Scrapers, when used correctly take a lot of skill. Some of the carbide tipped tools like the Eliminator have a concave disc, and they do more of a shear cut, and act kind of like a gouge. You can do high angle shear cuts with a scraper, and you can do bevel rubbing cuts as well. I do prefer traditional tools, and just don't care for the carbide tipped ones.

I agree in part about the shot filled handles. Too much weight if you are turning for more than 5 minutes. I couldn't feel that they really do anything more for dampening than moving your tool rest closer does. One reason why I prefer specialized bowl rests to straight ones when I am in bowl mode....

robo hippy
 
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