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why bees wax in utilitarian ware?

S

squirrel

Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
132
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Location
Belgium
Hello,

I noticed that Richard Raffan and Robin Wood both use a mix of oil and hot (so liquid) bees wax to put on their platters and treens for food.
I never understood where the bees wax is good for?
As the platters and bowls are washed daily, I suppose the wax goes away due to soap and water very quickly?
And ... eating on waxed surfaces is this allowded and does it not leave some taste behind?
I understand why oil is used. I do not understand the meaning of buffing the oil as it will leave it shines in the water after cleaning it and I certainly does not understand the reason of using wax ... but I am sure there must be a reason. Does someone knows the reason?

Thanks for your reply - Squirrel
 
squirrel said:
.... Does someone knows the reason?
Click to expand...

Yes. They saw somebody else use it so they assumed that they also had to do the same.

I am with you on this issue. Everybody is welcome to use whatever they like. If they like the look or feel, I guess that is reason enough.

I don't care much for these homemade concoctions. As far as I am concerned, oil and wax cooked together is grease. I wash dishes to get rid of grease on utensils. So that is my opinion. We might be the only ones who feel like this, but diversity of viewpoints is what makes the world go 'round ... and round and round and ......
 
Non-curing oils are more easily emulsified and washed away with detergents. Wax is more durable, but between the action of detergent, a bit of hot water and a rag - not much.
 
My understanding of the process is to make the bowl sell. If you try to sell a bowl with not finish it looks pretty bland. The use of oil of course changes the look and possibly penetrates and if it's a hardening oil may last a little longer. The beeswax is purely to make it look, smell and feel good. At least that's what I remember one turner who turns and sells hundreds of bowls a year to say.
 
When I first started turning, I watched a Richard Raffan video from my local library. It was clear that he was a production turner. I think oil/wax is used for the reason that it is quickly applied. It only takes a few seconds to apply a finish that looks great and is non toxic.
 
The bees wax is as said non toxic, when mixed with the food grade oils. It will make it easier to apply. As does the liquid bees wax as warmed makes it easier and of a shorter time duration to mix. You can mix it room temp but it takes forever as the oil does the solvent thing on the wax.

The wax will also fill in the larger pores in the surface or smaller div-its, in the surface keeping more of the food or sauce/oil mixture out of the pores hence less chance of a long lingering smell remaining.

Probably also why numerous coats with sometime for the wax to solidify, between coats. At least that is what a cutting board maker said. I think it would also apply to bowls and other food containers of wood.
 
The oil is generally mineral oil and not a seed oil. It's been in the ground for millions of years without drying. Don't expect it to dry any faster on a bowl. At high temperature and pressure it can be cooked into a varnish like finish. However, since it is thin and never drying, it will continue to penetrate the wood until some day the distribution will be uniform throughout. Long before then, the wood will feel dry so people mistakenly assume that it has dried. Don't hold your breath waiting for the beeswax to "dry". I think that people use it because it does not dry (or not very fast).
 
Hello,

as the beeswax is washed away ... the reason must be:
- to let it age with a more egal surface
- to make it sell easily

I can imagine people are disappointed to see the nice shine fading away after using it several times

Thanks a lot - Squirrel
 
I don't like a shine on wood bowls. Just wrong. I prefer a matt type finish, and that is what the walnut oils do. The glow from the buffing is gone the first time it gets washed or rinsed. Bees wax sounds good, but does little except show off finger prints.

robo hippy
 
john lucas said:
My understanding of the process is to make the bowl sell. If you try to sell a bowl with not finish it looks pretty bland. The use of oil of course changes the look and possibly penetrates and if it's a hardening oil may last a little longer. The beeswax is purely to make it look, smell and feel good. At least that's what I remember one turner who turns and sells hundreds of bowls a year to say.
Click to expand...

I've never known of any advantage of one finish over another except for personal preference and the fact that you just get used to one or another. But John's comment about the finish making a bowl sell goes along with my own experience. I've been using Howards Feed-n-Wax http://www.howardproducts.com/prod-feed-n-wax.php on utility bowls for a while and it really smells nice. And it's simple to apply and re-apply when it needs it. And you can get it at Home Depot or Lowes or probably any other hardware store.
 
The 'combustible' warning is given with just about any 'oil' type finish that has accelerators in it. As the oils dry/cure, they emit heat, and if you use rags, and pile them up some where, the amount of heat can spontaneously ignite. With the walnut oils, they cure so slowly that the heat doesn't build to those levels, but I still don't take chances.

robo hippy
 
Combustible warning is because it contains petroleum distillates. http://www.howardproducts.com/resources/msds/Feed_N_Wax.pdf
Flammable, it ain't, with a boiling point that high.

It does not contain an exothermic curing oil, if the MSDS percentages are correct, and contains no siccatives ("accelerators"). Probably light mineral oil for the "feed" function.
 
The way I read the MSDS for Feed and Wax it contains 65-110 % Petroleum distillates. Hum. Last time I looked these chemicals are Flammable. Talk to any fireman.
 
Jim Rinde said:
The way I read the MSDS for Feed and Wax it contains 65-110 % Petroleum distillates. Hum. Last time I looked these chemicals are Flammable. Talk to any fireman.
Click to expand...

Well, no. Combustible, but not flammable. Definition of the latter being "easily ignited." Depends on the molecular weight of the distillate, which defines its flash point. With 141F flash, the material in question is not flammable by definition. http://www.ehow.com/list_6807910_classifications-osha-flammables.html

Probably why they say it isn't.
 
Flame Wars

This reminds me of flammable vs. inflammable. Both mean the same thing, but flammable is a more modern term that was urged by the NFPA (National Fire Prevention Association) back in the 1930's I believe. Their stated intent was to reduce confusion, but the result was more like tossing fuel on a fire. As if that wasn't bad enough, there is also nonflammable and non-inflammable which both mean the same thing. I won't even bother trying to explain them, but the National Geographic Style Manual gives their preferences here.
 
Speaking of communicating (or not), I just realized that I incorrectly stated the name for the NFPA. It should be the National Fire Protection Association. There is a significant difference between preventing fires and protecting us from them. The best way to protect us from fires is to prevent them so the term protection is broad enough in scope to encompass prevention in the way that the NFPA uses the word.
 
Oil and Beeswax Reply

Hello All,

I found the discussion about oil and beeswax to be interesting as I like to use the mixture myself. My take is that the oil moisturizes and the wax acts as a temporary seal and water repellent (natural). I also find it easy to apply and easy to maintain. Furthermore, I have noted that it is a mixture with a long history of application to kitchenware. I also find it nice to the touch as I can feel the texture of the wood through it.

After considering some of the responses and out of curiosity, I decided that perhaps it would be best just to ask one of the gentlemen Squirrel referenced in his original question. I have attached Richard Raffan’s response to me, with his permission, for him in an effort to share his reasoning behind using the mixture as he was unaware of the post and the discussion source when I queried him. Hope this is of use!

Best regards,

“Thanks, Matt. If I turn something that's going straight into use it doesn't get any finish, but it does get washed.

The reason for the wax originally is that it keeps the oil in the wood and prevents oils that don't set leaking onto a retailer's shelves. (I started turning before gift shops became galleries.) I wonder if the guy making smart comments about grease is talking about wooden plates. I'd be surprised.....

I've never used hot beeswax but Robin might although I can' think why. Del Stubb used to on boxes.

The oil and wax do indeed go away with washing and I had a label on the bottom of every bowl telling the keeper to wash it in hot water and detergent and oil as needed which anything in use rarely does. Beeswax is a traditoinal finish easy to apply on the lathe, but it doesn't satisfy those who like high shine or those who want a lasting finish. The advantage of beeswax is that it can be washed off, and it can also be a base for polishes that build a patina. Sealed wood never gets the patina that beeswaxed wood develops, so those who sneer at beeswax miss out in the long run. I use boiled linseed oil for work finished off the lathe.

Of course we mostly copy people when we are learning a new skill. In the workshop I trained they used a white candle and called it beeswax. I think Dougie Hart liked the deception. He had labels that went over the screw holes in the base, one with his name, the other with 'beeswax finish'.

If you want to put this on a forum, feel free. Cheers, RR.â€
 
Matt thanks for asking Mr. Raffan about the finishes that he uses and thank him for being kind enough to respond.

Since many of the longer term members use "handles", I am sure that you will be forgiven for not knowing that squirrel is a lady.

It sounds like developing a patina is one of the things that Richard Raffan finds attractive about using the oil and wax mixture. For things that he creates, I think that is a very valid argument, especially considering that most folks are not too likely to be tossing his turnings into the sink with the dirty plates and silverware. Other than for our own use, I do not turn any kitchen stuff. Knowing that we are not going to be reapplying a wax and oil with any reasonable regularity to our wooden kitchen bowls and utensils, I don't mess with it.

Not that it really matters much, but a mixture of oil with the right type of organic fatty material that can maintain a homogeneous mixture where the oil does not readily separate can be a grease. A grease doesn't have to be a lubricant. We normally associate grease with products like bearing and axle grease. In those types of greases, the oil is held in a soap mixture (where soap does not mean the same thing as hand or laundry soap, it is more like a waxy fatty material that undergoes a process called saponification -- that process is also used in making our hand soap starting out with a different type of organic fatty materials and not the same materials for saponification).

Beeswax which is mainly esters of fatty acids and long chain alcohols does a reasonable job of staying mixed with oil. Beeswax is somewhat similar to the "soap" produced through a process called saponification of fatty materials which becomes a component of lubricating grease. The soap in lubricating greases consists of esters of fatty acids, but making those types of soap also involves things that help lubricate such as lithium and molybdenum metallic salts.

Greases eventually break down over time into their constituent parts. With bearing grease, the oil leaks out of the somewhat more solid soap and the bearing goes dry and wears out. With oil and beeswax, they separate much sooner since they are only stirred together while heated on the stove which is probably a good thing as the oil slowly migrates into the wood and what remains on the surface is primarily the wax.

Woodworkers are not the only ones who mix beeswax and oil. There are skin care products that use beeswax-oil mixtures as well as some waterproofing products for leather. There are even some gear-heads who mix beeswax and motor oil. However, I don't know what they use it for.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Woodworkers are not the only ones who mix beeswax and oil. There are skin care products that use beeswax-oil mixtures as well as some waterproofing products for leather. There are even some gear-heads who mix beeswax and motor oil. However, I don't know what they use it for.
Click to expand...

M'lady's cold cream is such a mixture. Mineral oil and beeswax.
 
Bill Boehme said:
There are even some gear-heads who mix beeswax and motor oil. However, I don't know what they use it for
Click to expand...

As an anti rust coating. They picked that up from smiths applying it to items used out doors or on fireplace tools. The bees wax according to some made the oil last longer on the items. I never seem to notice any difference if the oil had bees wax or not.

Using oil motor and heat tends to put some carbon into the pores of the metal. That is what knowledge that is passed down from days gone by. Otherwise one guy uses fry oil, it helps sells the items at shows as the smell of french fries lingers quite away. The tri-angle dinner callers are coated with the oil, to give the brown/black color.

You heat the item to about 400/450°F and dip the item, apply with a cotton rag, or a natural bristle brush not the plastic ones.

If using motor oil, it is no longer safe to apply used motor oil with all the heavy metal shavings and bits that end up in the oil. And with all the additives and synthetics in the oils you want a natural non detergent oil. To keep the stuff from being inhaled as it is applied.

Any of the vegetable/food oils are what is recommended for smiths to apply.

Kitchen items they made. It was applied warm as a liquid, for ease of coverage
 
MichaelMouse said:
M'lady's cold cream is such a mixture. Mineral oil and beeswax.
Click to expand...

Could you use the pretense that your hands are feeling a bit dry and rough to "borrow" some of the lotion? Then accidentally, of course, get it all over a bowl. Well, I guess that it probably also contains some perfume.
 
As Richard says Del Stubbs used it for boxes. Heat the beeswax in mineral oil. Do this untill when cool you like the consistity. Took me several tries. If you use this for box insides only it has a great beeswax smell. I do it with the lathe spinnig so it soaks in from the heat. I know that Kip Christensen uses this for the inside of his boxes. A harder outside finish. For me thats all it gets used for. You sell a bowl with that as the finish and the 1st time its washed it looks bad. And worse each time after that. And many still harp on food safe. Its all food safe when cured. Want something easy and I have heard zero complaints? Mahoneys Walnut oil. I dont use it but my process is a bit long for many. A thinned poly mix and buffed back to the wood.
 
Bill,

Glad to assist in the conversation. As for the gender of Squirrel, I would hope to get a pass as it would be hard for anyone to determine from such a handle🙂

Thanks for the techie speak as I always enjoy talking the details of how things work.

BTW, the Mahoney's oil Kelly mentioned is good stuff that also works well with a wax.

Best regards,

Matt
 
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KellyDunn said:
You sell a bowl with that as the finish and the 1st time its washed it looks bad. And worse each time after that.
...
I dont use it but my process is a bit long for many. A thinned poly mix and buffed back to the wood.
Click to expand...

My experience with wax ended on a day with a bit of drizzle spotting my wares. Not since. I use the same utility finish you do - resin in, but not on the wood for cool, and walnut oil, which won't blister from unpopped for popcorn.
 
Walter Ambrosch said:
.......

Bowls used for Baking where Lard or Butter is used in the mix almost never need oil or wax, they will build up their own protection over time as long as you do not over wash the bowls.

Cutting Boards and Bowls used in the processing of Meat also get loaded with fat over time, they still need sanitizing, but here too... too much cleaning can be a bad thing.
Click to expand...

Having just gotten out of the hospital after being seriously ill with colitis and still gradually recovering, something about the suggestions in the last two paragraphs tells me neither of those are good ideas not to mention that saying "too much cleaning can be a bad thing" is just plain wrong. It might not be a good thing for the wood, but keep in mind what is important.
 
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