Who here knows something about microscopes?

[Odie]

I'm considering getting an inexpensive hand held microscope for viewing the cutting edges of my turning tools. I know how well they will cut, but I'd like to see the reasons why some edges are better than others. I also intend on experimenting with alternative methods of sharpening.......

I ran across this little 100x microscope that could be had for under ten bucks.

click:

http://cgi.ebay.com/60x-100x-LED-PO...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item588520ab74

Now....here's the question:

Is something like this suitable for my purposes?

Is 100x powerful enough?

Is something this cheap capable of doing the job?

I see a couple others that are 45x and 200x.....just run a search for "microscope" on ebay.......

What's your opinion?.....comments and suggestions?

Thanx

ooc

 

[Wayne Spence]

Microscopes

I think the answer to your question is look and see. 100x is enough magnification , the unit I saw might be difficult to hold steady. I would go for something more stationary . The ability to focus light where you want to on the object being examined is a great help. With this in mind I don't think you can go wrong for $10. What do you think you are going to see? One jagged edge more jagged than another?

I have used optical microscopes, petrographic microscopes, metallographic microscopes, comparative microscopes, electron microscopes, and electron microprobes although almost zilsch in the last twenty years. There are some nice things, cheap , on todays market that were not there previously and I just cannot comment on them. Usually the quality is not there for any kind of semi-scientific examination.

Not trying to be negative, just realistic.

 

[steelguy]

Microscopes

Odie:

You will be able to see differences in cutting edges with something simple like this. Even 20X magnification will allow you to evaluate the differences between grinding and honing. However, you will need to focus in and out to follow the edge, as the depth of field (range of depths that are in focus at any given time) of any optical microscope is very limited. As a result, while the microscope user can see what he has, he cannot produce a photo to show others. That is why Alan Lacer and I used a computer based imaging microscope for the articles in Winter, 2008 and Summer 2009 AW. The Winter 2008 article has a sidebar that explains this in more detail.

The little pocket microscopes are convenient, and can give you some facts upon which to base your grinding practices - just understand their limitations. I have used one for field tooling examinations for many years and they beat opinions any day.

Go for it and have some fun. Curiousity can be contagious!!

Jerry

 

[Hal Taylor]

Scopes

I know microscopes fairly well, and 100X is probably more than what you want unless you are doing something "scientific". Ten dollars is not a lot to try, but I'll bet you will be dissatisfied. I agree with Robert that magnification on the order of 20X - perhaps 50X will suit your needs if all you want to do is see what the edge looks like.

 

[john lucas]

I tried last year to try and understand if there was a difference in the sharpening of powdered metal tools and HSS tools. I went around the university asking to borrow different microscopes.
I ran into two problems. The lower power would not show the edges well enough to see the saw tooth difference. The higher power (200 to 500) did not have enough depth of field and I could not get the tool under the scope without removing the platen, which I didn't ask because they weren't my scopes.
You can tell more about an edge by cutting cross grain by hand and looking at the cut. All of the tools have to be the same cutting angle however.

 

[Odie]

Thanks to all who have responded so far.

What do I expect to see? I don't know......it's strictly an attempt to explore the unknown, with the thought that it might give me some kind of insight into sharpening techniques through magnified visual data. It would be my hope that this information will ultimately guide me in improving my lathe experience.....whether it actually will serve that purpose, is yet to be known!

I've come to understand that lathe turners represent a wide spectrum of experience with connections to just about any subject you'd care to investigate.....so, I gave it a shot!....and, I haven't been disappointed! 😉

OK, it looks like the consensus is a lower power might give me a more suitable, less shaky image for my purposes. Yes, it's true.....I'm not attempting to do a scientific analysis, but just get some idea of how various sharpening techniques look on the tool's edge.

There are plenty of 45x lighted loupes on ebay as well......I'm doing a little shopping tonight!

Thank you......

ooc

 

[Joe Greiner]

+1 for a jeweler's eye loupe. Here's a protective carrier made from a Rolaids bottle. 1/8" foam bottom, height reduced by cutting and "welding" with a soldering iron dedicated to plastics.

 

[Odie]

+1 for a jeweler's eye loupe. Here's a protective carrier made from a Rolaids bottle. 1/8" foam bottom, height reduced by cutting and "welding" with a soldering iron dedicated to plastics.

I have, and have used a regular jeweler's eye loupe exactly like the one you show in the photo, Joe......and it's my opinion that it does not magnify enough to get the kind of view I'm looking for. I'm not sure what magnifications they come in, but standard is very low power.....1x, 2x, 3x, etc......sort of like reading glasses.....they do help for sure, but I'm looking for something more than that.

The 45x eye loupe that I'll probably end up getting is more magnification than a standard loupe.

thanks

ooc

 

[Wipedout]

Odie

Have you tried one of those Hi power mirrors that you see at stores like Bed Bath and Beyond - you know the ones you look at that scare the crap out of you because they show your pores so close

You could hold the cutting tool to the mirror and i bet see what you wanted to see easier than using a microscope

Just my two cents - easy enough to test without spending a dime - just bring a tool with you to a store that sells them and see

Merry Christmas Odie to you and yours
'
Robert

 

[Wayne Spence]

Odie

After all the advise and suggestions I just ask that you publish your findings here on this forum. Seriously.

You mentioned the diversity of occupations among woodturners. There is an interview with Richard Sennett (a sociologist) in the oct/nov 09 issue of American Craft. He delves somewhat into why people are craftspeople . An interesting interview. He may be too left of center for many turners but I think the review is worth reading.

Cheers and Christmas cheer

 

[Odie]

Odie

Have you tried one of those Hi power mirrors that you see at stores like Bed Bath and Beyond - you know the ones you look at that scare the crap out of you because they show your pores so close

You could hold the cutting tool to the mirror and i bet see what you wanted to see easier than using a microscope

Just my two cents - easy enough to test without spending a dime - just bring a tool with you to a store that sells them and see

Merry Christmas Odie to you and yours
'
Robert

Robert......Hi power mirror?......You got me on that one.....don't know if I've ever seen one of those! 😕

Same to you, friend......Merry Christmas.

And......you, as well, Wayne.

ooc

 

[Odie]

Howdy all......

I just checked my jeweler's loupe. It plainly is marked with the number 1. I also checked with my jeweler's loupe at work today. That one is plainly marked 10x. I believe both of them are probably 10x.

Not sure how high the power goes on those.....but, I'll probably go with the illuminated 45x I saw on ebay. I was searching for one with a US address, and couldn't find one......still haven't purchased yet.....but, will soon.

Hey, I saw one other item from China that didn't take American dollars!......they only took AU dollars. I think that's Australian dollars, but not sure. Well, anyway, this may be a sign of the times......If you know what I mean! :mad:

ooc

 

[steelguy]

Cheap Microscope

Odie - RadioShack stores - $9.99, decent reviews on websits.

Jerry

 

[Odie]

Odie - RadioShack stores - $9.99, decent reviews on websits.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry.....

Some of those reviews confirmed what others had been telling of too much power to do the job.

I'm still thinking the best compromise might be the 45x eye loupe.......?

ooc

 

[Dave Schell]

Odie, I think the best kind of scope for your purposes would be a stereo microscope (also known as a dissecting microscope).

Here is an example of what they look like:

These are usually in the power of 20x to 30x. I bought one of these years ago for my kids to dissect bugs and the like. I have used it more than they have over the years though and I think every household should have one. You'd be amazed how handy it is to get a 30x view of things sometimes. And with one of these you have room under the optics to manipulate the specimen. I use mine most frequently for extracting well-embedded splinters from my hands. Makes me feel like a surgeon 🙂

Oh, and yes, I have used it to look at my tool sharpenings. Works great.

 

[Odie]

Odie, I think the best kind of scope for your purposes would be a stereo microscope (also known as a dissecting microscope).

Here is an example of what they look like:

These are usually in the power of 20x to 30x. I bought one of these years ago for my kids to dissect bugs and the like. I have used it more than they have over the years though and I think every household should have one. You'd be amazed how handy it is to get a 30x view of things sometimes. And with one of these you have room under the optics to manipulate the specimen. I use mine most frequently for extracting well-embedded splinters from my hands. Makes me feel like a surgeon 🙂

Oh, and yes, I have used it to look at my tool sharpenings. Works great.

Hey there, Dave.......

Thanks for contributing.

I think you're right that I'd like something like that. I've used a stereo microscope at work, but that one was about $3000, and photo compatible.....a very very nice stereo microscope.

I'm trying an ebay search again, and don't see anything like that for very cheap......and really, this is what I'm looking for.....cheap! I don't expect to be using it very much.

I found this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/BINOCULAR-STERE...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518f2db7d9


Thanks........still looking......still thinking that 45x eye loupe will probably be the best bet.......

ooc

 

[Wayne S.]

Look at this
http://www.peakoptics.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=16
I have the 15X that I use, The best part is it fits in your pocket.

 

[Dave Schell]

Odie, understand the need to go inexpensive on something like this. Your find on ebay is a steal though (if you could get it for 79). I know that's still more than you wanted to spend, but my experience is that you will find many other uses for it. I like the pocket microscopes that Wayne linked to as well - pretty sharp but I have no experience with them.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

Equally important is the light which you are using. Some of the time I simply back out the door and hold tools so I'm looking at the tools edge, edge on. that is: facing me. With the sun over my shoulder hitting the edge, I look for any reflection from the edge which indicates a need for more sharpening. This does not need a very high powered loup though it should be one of good quality. In a shop it's handy having several of different power. Loups can also be used to check honing by examining the edge from the side. I also have a small hand held microscope and if needed, a very fine stereoscope. But usually a loup is what works well. Again, it should be a good one and the light source is is very important. The point was made about the lack of depth of field of higher power loups and microscopes. There's trial involved to find what works for you.

Malcolm Smith.

 

[Richard Baker]

Odie, This might be interesting. Dunno how much it costs. Google brentbeach/sharpen and go to his sharpening pages.

 

[Odie]

Merry Christmas to all!

I ordered the 45x illuminated jeweler's loupe this morning. It's coming from Hong Kong, so may be a couple of weeks before I can comment.

Thanks to all who have responded.

ooc

 

[Odie]

The 45x jeweler's loupe, or microscope, has been here for a week, or so.

The instructions are in Chinese only, no other language. I did have some problems with it until I discovered how the focus works......pull straight out instead of trying to turn it....duh! This little thing is pretty tiny overall, but will suffice for my purposes. At the price I paid, I'm happy to include this little microscope in my "bag of tricks"! Total with shipping included was under ten bucks.....

Here's one great discovery I've been able to find out through the use of this little microscope.

The slower you sweep your round nose, or curved scrapers over the grinding wheel.......the more distinct the burr, and the better it will cut.

Some of you may already know, or suspect this. I didn't know this, but I did suspect this may be the case.......AND NOW I KNOW FOR SURE! 😀 My best guess is the slower sweep means more heat at the point of grind. The more heat may mean the metal is more pliable, resulting in a more pronounced burr.

I haven't used the microscope on the gouges yet, but I'll get around to this soon...........😉

Good turning to you on this fine cold cold day!

ooc

 

[john lucas]

I look forward to seeing what else you see. I've been wondering how to get some stronger objectives for my stereo microscope. Right now it's 25 power but I would love to have 50 or 100 to go with it.

 

[Odie]

I look forward to seeing what else you see. I've been wondering how to get some stronger objectives for my stereo microscope. Right now it's 25 power but I would love to have 50 or 100 to go with it.

OK John, if I make any noteworthy discoveries, I'll let the forum members know my findings.

It looks like my rounded scrapers will have an altered sharpening technique......I intend to slow down the arc when sharpening them. There will probably be a point at which too much heat will have negative effects, but I'm using Norton SG wheels that run very cool to begin with......there is still some questions in my mind as to the best methods for fine tuning scraper sharpening......?

The straight edged scrapers are sharpened along a surface and not a point (like the curved scrapers). Because of that difference, there will probably be no change.

I doubt, or at least suspect my bowl gouge sharpening methods will not change, but I'm curious to see the difference between using a diamond hone and a slip stone.......both inside the flute, and along the ground edge for touching up the edge between grinder sessions.

ooc