Where is the difference?

[Richard Kennedy]

Hi I was thinking about the wide variety of lathes that are available on the market today. There are hundreds of them all shapes and sizes everyone who owns a lathe will argue that theirs is ideal but the question I want to know is what makes a $5000 a $5000 lathe? Where is the $2000 difference between it and say a $3000 lathe is it worth the extra? I see the new Magma Titan floating about the internet and the VL600 I read about stubbys and oneways vicmarcs and VB's all magnificent machines but There are Powermatics Jets Grizzlies (not in the UK but) Say you looked at a Vicmarc VL300 and compared it to a Powermatic 3520B Where is the Dollar difference?

I understand the difference between say a Record Power cl4 and a Oneway but when you get into the $3 - $10,000 ranges what is so much better?

 

[George Guadiane]

Richard,
A couple of things come to mind for me:
Nameplate. Your question is a little like asking why a Rolex is more than an Omega wristwatch - both Swiss made from the same basic materials to comparatively exacting standards... Personally, I think the Omega is generally vastly superior... Moving on;
"Made In America" probably has a higher price tag, even if the manufacturer is working on much slimmer margins than importers like Jet/Powermatic, Delta and the like.
Customer service and warranty may play a part, I haven't had any problems with my lathe to speak of, so I can't say for sure.
For instance, I have a Powermatic and am happy as a clam. There are a few things I wouldn't mind having, but I'm more than content. I would have been happier if it had been made here, but I barely had the coin for this one when I got it.
Heavier lathes tend to be more stable, but cost more in materials and handling.
The swing away feature for Robust tailstocks is a nice feature, but I'm still strong enough to lift mine, all day long, if I need to.

I think, to a great degree, on the nameplate thing, a lot of the Chinese manufacturing is done in only a couple of places and they basically make all of the lathes we import. The materials used on house brand lathes may be less, or it might be that the house brands are identical in every way, but just don't have the same name recognition, so they have to be less expensive.

Very unscientific, off the top of my head and worth what you paid for it.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I think, to a great degree, on the nameplate thing, a lot of the Chinese manufacturing is done in only a couple of places and they basically make all of the lathes we import. The materials used on house brand lathes may be less, or it might be that the house brands are identical in every way, but just don't have the same name recognition, so they have to be less expensive.

I realize that form does follow function to a degree, but a lot of these look familiar. http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/wood-lathe.html

 

[Steve Worcester]

I think there are a few differentiators.

Build quality, as in how things fit, slide, etc.
Quality of components, in both electronics, but also the steels used, and the quality of bearings, etc.
Neat or unique features. Could be a swivels, sliding headstock, could be 48 or 96 pin indexing,could be a #3 taper vs #2, could be add ons - remote start/stop/speed, braking resistors, those type of things.

At some point, you look at good enough, vs exactly what you want and are willing to pay for it. The boutique brands, or more expensive, are built in lower quantities and therefor more expensive.

 

[davidwalser]

Richard,

You ask an interesting question. I think the best way to answer your question is to take a close look at both a top-of-the-line lathe and a PM 3520B at the same time. A couple of years ago, I had a chance to do just that at the Desert Woodturning Roundup (shameless plug for this February's DWR: http://www.desertwoodturningroundup.com/). The Serious Wood Lathe was on display next to the PM 3520B. (Here's a link to info about the Serious Lathe: http://serioustoolworks.com/wood-lathes.php)

Both lathes are "better" than I'll ever be. That is, neither lathe would limit my ability to turn. If something didn't turn out as well as I had hoped, it wouldn't be the lathe's fault. From that perspective, both lathes were "equal" in that both would equip me to do anything I might want to do. Several production turners have chosen the PM as their primary lathe, so it's clearly "enough" lathe. More than enough isn't necessarily better.

On the other hand, the Serious Lathe was clearly a better lathe -- better in lots of subtle and not-so-subtle ways. For example, the quill on the PM is very nice, but the quill on the Serious Lathe is much better. It operates almost effortlessly. A couple of cranks of the handle will fully extend the quill. Quicker, smother, and MORE travel. Those are subtle differences. A not so subtle difference is the greater mass of the Serious Lathe -- over 1,500 lbs. of love! They had a very large, very out-of-balance, blank spinning on the Serious Lathe. Stacked on the headstock of the lathe were a stack of alphabet blocks spelling out "SERIOUS". People were taking turns trying out the lathe. The stack of blocks never fell. While discussing the lathe with the vendor, I casually leaned next to the tailstock, placing my hand on the lathe's ways. I was surprised when I looked at the headstock and saw that the lathe was still spinning the unbalanced load. I hadn't felt any vibration.

All of these differences, large and small, would make the Serious Lathe more fun for me to turn on. None of them would allow me to turn anything I couldn't on the PM. Are the differences worth the additional cost? That's a personal decision. Leather seats don't make a car carry more passengers or give it better gas mileage. So, are leather seats worth the extra cost? Maybe not, but both our family vehicles have leather seats. I enjoy driving the cars more -- and I don't like cows. Others are unwilling to pay the difference and stick with cloth seats. Neither decision is wrong in any objective sense.

 

[Wayne Spence]

Differences

One of the differences I think is in the motor and electronics besides weight, quality of parts and machining. Don't know how to compare them but for example a Vicmarc VL300CS shortbed is $2300 for the bare lathe and $4500 for the lathe and 3hp variable speed motor. The motor costs almost as much as the lathe. I am assuming and it may be a bad assumption that Oneway and others of similar price would have the same cost for the motor and electronics if they could be sorted out. Would my Nova 16-44 be worth buying a $2300 motor and electronics and replacing the existing factory motor? I doubt it but maybe some of the knowledgable electric turners could weigh in here.

 

[john lucas]

I have a 3520A and it will probably do everything I want to do (although I am going to lower the extension bed similar to the 3520B) But I still like to look and as a demonstrator get to "play" on more expensive lathes.
I think it's a little bit of everything. Higher quality switches, motors and controllers. Better quality castings and better fit and finish. Better quality bearings which as you know are probably the heart of the system.
I think it's just attention to detail.
I drive a Ford Focus. It gets me there and does all I need to do. I would love to drive a BMW. It would still get me there and do all I need to do but boy would it be fun. I think that describes the difference between say turning on the 3520 and turning on a Robust. I'll still get there but everthing about is more fun. Better resale (so I can buy an even more expensive lathe) smooth motor, yea and even bragging rights.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Richard,

I started turning on a no-name table-top spindle lathe. I then "graduated" to a Jet 12-36 which I then outgrew in about a year or so. I had heard many times that turners go through a number of machines as they outgrow them, but I wished to avoid that course, and went shopping for "My Last Lathe." At that time the big boys on the block were Nichols, Oneway, VB, Serious, Poolwood, and Stubby, with a second tier including the Vic's and the Powermatics. Each had its strengths and price points. Then there was the issue of spares, as in space in my basement shop, and scratch in the account. I had liked what I saw about the Serious machine, but when I called them, Bernie Mathes, the then owner, tried to sell me the company rather than a lathe. I didn't have room in my basement for the company and getting a 1,200 pound lathe down the steps wasn't gonna work either. I finally settled on the Stubby because it fit my criteria and was a machine that would take me years to grow into, but never outgrow.

When you get into lathes in this class you find things like very high quality cast iron (there are big differences in foundries metals) and castings' integrity (just the headstock and motor weighed more than my entire old JET). Parts that are machined to very close tolerances. Expensive motors, electronics, and bearings make huge differences. The weight and fit of components like banjos and tailstocks makes a great difference in the stability of that tool you're holding, and allow you get out of your personal safety zone with reasonable confidence and safety. But as my grandfather would say, "only cheap is cheap", so I worked on true cost benefit analysis.

What I found was that with machines in this class, you tend to forget about the lathe, and concentrate on the spinning piece of wood. I wanted to buy my last lathe, did so, and have never looked back.

 

[Brian Libby]

I just purchased a Powermatic 3520B after much comparing.

looked at jet 1642 - similar to powermatic but half the weight and headstock swivels.

looked at Rikon 2036- similar specs as powermatic but smaller diameter quill, headstock swivels (3520B slides), "things" did not spin as easy, 5 belt speeds vs 2 on 3520b

looked at oneway 1640 - more weight #3 MT tailstock,better handles etc.

I found as a general rule you are paying for higher quality fit and finish, weight and stability.

Bank account would only accomadate buying the powermatic!!
all will turn a similar size bowl blank -but the lighter lathe ,the more vibration.

 

[DeanGraber]

I think one must ask the question, what will I be turning on this lathe? I see sooooo many trading up for bigger better monster lathes, and then I see their work and they turn smaller items. I too ran into the same issue when closing my custom furniture bus. and moving from WI to Alaska decided to turn for tourists. My items are small (from 12" bowls on down) with many small boxes people can easily take with them on the boat. Initially I wished for a stubby,nice vic etc. but after thinking about it went with the Delta 46-460. Does everything I need to do, and $6000 vs $700??? I'll leave it at that.

 

[Odie]

Those who know me, are aware that I've had my Australian made Woodfast lathe for nineteen years......bought it new from CSUSA in 1992. This was an upgrade for me, replacing a previous Northwood lathe, that replaced a Shopsmith multi-function tool. In both cases, this was an upgrade in QUALITY.....and, something well worth the money spent. You can no longer get an Australian Woodfast, but at the time, it was a premium lathe, very much on the same level as the Vicmarc now is.

I've, many times, pondered getting a Vicmarc, or something along those lines, but just can't see spending the money merely to get a larger swing. It's very seldom that good wood above 16" is available to me.....and, to be honest, don't see much use for that large of a bowl.....unless bragging rights are needed! I believe it was John Jordan who described a huge bowl he made as an "albatross" and didn't enjoy hauling it around to shows, before selling it!......Even though 15 1/2" is the largest bowl I've ever made, I tend to agree with his reasoning. For me, and in realistic terms, 14" diameter is about as big as is reasonable, without complicating issues......

I don't foresee getting a larger lathe.....and something like the Vicmarc would NOT be an improvement in quality.

Having "upgraded" twice, it's my opinion that if you are one that has quality issues with your current lathe, I suspect a thoughtful contemplation of the current offerings, leading to a wise personal conclusion........ more money spent would make a vast improvement in your turning experience.

ooc

 

[Bob Hadley]

The lathe market is very competitive. I don't think manufacturers like Oneway, Robust, AB, Serious, et al, are tacking on extra profit "for their name."

To get to the bottom of why a particular premium lathe, say the 1,500 lb Serious, for example, is two or three or four times more than a Powermatic goes way beyond the spec sheets and ad copy.

Generally, every step you go up the price ladder, you get an incremental quality and performance increase (emphasis on generally). Start with a $100 lathe: worthless you will no doubt agree. At $200 you might start to find a basic lathe or mini that, more or less, functions. From $200 to $400, $400 to $800 and from $800 to $1,600 the improvements are startling! But somewhere, say the difference between a $3,000 lathe and a $6,000 lathe, the differences start to diminish. At this point, you have to start paying big bucks for ever smaller improvements...because they don't come so easy at that level. Like a race car engine: a serious guy might start with a $100,000 "stock" engine that puts out 700 hp and then tear it down and put another $200,000 into it just so it puts out 735 hp. Was it really worth tripling the cost of the engine for 5% hp increase? It all depends on what you want to do.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Well, since nobody has mentioned it. What is implied behind the url I posted above is that mass production is cheaper than building-to-order. Designer lathes are labor-intensive, and therefore more expensive. When the machines build other machines, they build 'em all the same.

 

[Gynia]

The difference between a $3000 lathe and a $6000 lathe is similar to the difference between a bowl from Pier One and a bowl made by you.

 

[hockenbery]

Well, since nobody has mentioned it. What is implied behind the url I posted above is that mass production is cheaper than building-to-order. Designer lathes are labor-intensive, and therefore more expensive. When the machines build other machines, they build 'em all the same.

They do for a while.

Problem is bits wear tolerances drift.

Unless the machines are set to specs what they produce will be different.

The problems increase when there are multiple lines producing the same part.

Quality control is important with machine and people.
Unfortunately Machines and people do the quality control.

-Al

 

[MichaelMouse]

The problem is people presume the worst of those they are predisposed against.

Machine tolerances are a function of the machine, and CNC stuff doesn't require skilled input by those who feed the raw materials, change the tooling when it gets get dull or worn or package the output. That's why cheap labor markets with new machines can sell for less. The machine does not demand pay raises, take long lunch breaks, sick days, or vacations. Nor does it require a pension. The people who do these don't make the widget, so they really can't influence its end product much.

It's generally not worth making something less than the machine is capable of making, because today's uncommitted production may be purchased by the pickiest distributor. Not to mention that neglect of tools and tolerance might cause the loss of all units made that shift.

 

[hockenbery]

The problem is people presume the worst of those they are predisposed against.
.

You should not presume the Worst or Best.
Machines require a human element. the weak link can be the machine or the human. Both fail on occasion.

Look at the loss of life and endless oil spill fro Deep Water Horizon when some of the most sophisticated machinery on earth failed.

Machines are great they aren't the whole answer.

-al

 

[Richard Kennedy]

Interesting discussion

Its really interesting reading through the responses. Thanks everyone for contributing you have raised some cool points. I can see how electronics and standards of manufacture differ and in turn affect the price but I do wonder if some of the higher price isn't to do with the name on the side! You have me slightly concerned about the production methods of certain lathes but surely those makers who outsource to cheaper manufacturing countries such as china must maintain some kind of quality control. Not to do so would be business suicide given the current economic conditions we all face????

I think I should point out here that I own a VB36 and have just ordered a PM3520B (although its branded as a Jet) I will be really interested to compare the two although they will be living in different workshops miles apart! The VB is an amazing machine I have not turned as much on it as I would have liked owing to breaking my foot before Christmas and only now being able to put a bit of weight on it. I got the lathe a couple of weeks before so haven't really had a chance to bond but initial impressions are of a massive solid well engineered machine I have moved up from a record CL3 so the difference to me is huge and will take some getting used to I have ordered the 3520B for a number of reasons not least because it receives very favourable reviews and comments on this and other forums, The price was much more affordable than buying a Vicmarc or other premium lathe, and it has a bed which whilst I don't spindle turn I felt it was something I should have the opportunity to access. I work between the West of Scotland and England hence the 2 workshops and since you can't exactly pick up a VB and move it every time the second lathe was needed.

Returning to the discussion I wondered having ordered the 3520B what the main differences would be with regard to the build quality I assume from what has been mentioned that the electronics package won't be as strong and that the quality of the castings will be less refined. It certainly weighs the same though so I just hope it was a machine created using new milling tips and a wide awake conscientious operator! Time will tell!

Finally having read all the posts I still can't help but wonder if the price difference between say the new Magma Black £7220 ($11420) and a Stubby £5000 approx ($7908) (at time of writing) can be down to manufacturing techniques and electronics and the other small details mentioned perhaps we are being pushed a bit hard to part with our cash

What do you think?

 

[Odie]

Finally having read all the posts I still can't help but wonder if the price difference between say the new Magma Black £7220 ($11420) and a Stubby £5000 approx ($7908) (at time of writing) can be down to manufacturing techniques and electronics and the other small details mentioned perhaps we are being pushed a bit hard to part with our cash

What do you think?

Richard......

What I think......is just about all the currently available lathes have established some reputation amongst woodturners. The woodturning community is relatively small, and there is a lot of competition to sell lathes. You are undoubtedly correct that "name recognition" plays a part in how much certain manufacturers can charge for their lathes, but for the most part, the reputation each manufacturer......is earned!

Besides all that, the more quantity oriented the machine......ie: those produced in high numbers, are most likely to be cheaper and less refined. I'd be willing to bet the producers of the high end machines are less effected by profit motive than they are of maintaining a reputation of quality.

All of this is conjecture on my part, of course.......I'm just an observer that bases his opinions on heresay evidence......plenty of room for error!

The price was much more affordable than buying a Vicmarc or other premium lathe, and it has a bed which whilst I don't spindle turn I felt it was something I should have the opportunity to access.

An off-topic comment:

I've never turned on anything but a long bed lathe......but, I'm very comfortable with my methods of bowl turning with mine. The reason I say this, is because I've developed my technique around leaning my body, knees, hips on my lathe bed.......and, if I need more room, I simply switch sides and go to the other side of my lathe, where I lean the other way. To me, this seems like I have much more body rigidity, resulting in tool control over that I would have if I were just standing on my feet.

I've heard comments from others who have short bed, or sliding headstock lathes, who are grateful for that convienience......but, for my way of seeing it......I'd have to give up some amount of rigidity and control by giving up leaning with my body...........food for thought!

ooc

 

[Richard Kennedy]

Thanks for all the comments

Thanks Odie for commenting. I wish I could have fitted in a long bed machine but my shops are both too small to allow it Having the ability to turn off the end is essential to me so the flexibility is great.

On a slightly different note you North Americans are really lucky you have a huge choice when it comes to buying lathes Oneway, Vic, vb, Stubby, powermatic, robust, serious to name only a few. Here in the uk we can get vicmarc, Jet, VB, wivamac, and only recently Oneway and Magma but we have no real consumer power with only 1 or 2 outlets for many of the machines. I would love to have seen a robust. One day I will.........

Thanks again for an interesting set of thoughts!

Richard

 

[Gretch Flo]

price differential

Don't forget, that the pioneers have great costs in the research and development. (same as in the medical industry- or elsewhere I presume). Some one pours out the bucks to come up with a better product, it succeeds, and then other countries, without regard to patents, pay no attention to patents , and make a "knock off". May be a duplicate, or change a tiny thing to get them off the copyright patent hook. I philosophically like to support the one doing all the research. I am NOT in the loop with all this political crap, nor do I want to get involved. Gretch

 

[Mark Mandell]

While not to start a rant over "cheap Chinese" tools, there is a significant difference in manufacturing cultures, East and West. Western manufacturers have evolved on the premise of quality control being the responsibility of the maker with the expectation that the maker is putting out his best work. In Asia, quality control, as was explained to me, is the responsibility of the customer. A Chinese tool maker is perfectly able to make items of the same quality as anyone else, but they work to a customer's specs instead. Thus a customer may set tolerances to +/- 5/10,000 or 1/10,000. The factory will then quote a price based upon the difference. The customer may specify cast iron alloy of a high or low grade, with loose or tight tolerances for castings' quality for warpage, porosity, hardness, and toughness. Where a US company would not accept inferior specs, the Chinese will make exactly what the customer wants at the price he wants to pay. If the tool is cheap, with mediocre fit and finish, that's the customer's choice. This was explained to me by a friend's Chinese manufacturing client.

 

[waltben]

Mark - I don't think it's totally correct to label East and West cultures as being high or low quality. Remember 1950's cheap tin kids toys from Japan? In spite of Toyota's recent issues, the Japanese auto industry is what got Detroit to stop spewing out junk for the masses. Chinese (or Southeast Asian, or Indian, or where ever) quality is all based upon what they'll be paid for the product. Pure and simple capitalism. We rant and rave about cheaply made tools, but still buy the lowest price ones out there. I had a long talk with a major manufacturer's rep about small lathes being all made off-shore. He said they were forced to because no one would pay for one made here. They did hold (at that time it was Taiwanese) the manufacturer to higher quality standards than they were originally going to produce, but they had to cut their profit margin to distributors to do so. Everything has a cost, and there's tons of history of US manufacturers putting out grossly inferior products.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Mark - I don't think it's totally correct to label East and West cultures as being high or low quality. Remember 1950's cheap tin kids toys from Japan? In spite of Toyota's recent issues, the Japanese auto industry is what got Detroit to stop spewing out junk for the masses. Chinese (or Southeast Asian, or Indian, or where ever) quality is all based upon what they'll be paid for the product. Pure and simple capitalism. We rant and rave about cheaply made tools, but still buy the lowest price ones out there. I had a long talk with a major manufacturer's rep about small lathes being all made off-shore. He said they were forced to because no one would pay for one made here. They did hold (at that time it was Taiwanese) the manufacturer to higher quality standards than they were originally going to produce, but they had to cut their profit margin to distributors to do so. Everything has a cost, and there's tons of history of US manufacturers putting out grossly inferior products.

After the general destruction of their manufacturing base, the Japanese had little choice but to make low-tech high-human goods. As to cars, you may recall that the Detroit product was for only the American market, and we turned over cars in the days of leaded fuel every four years. They were pretty much built to last that long. Rest of the world didn't have that kind of spare cash, so they built to a six-year cycle. They also built in factories with new machines (destroyed, remember?) and motivated people who had suffered great hardship and were grateful for employment opportunities.

As to the manufacturer's rep, I'll bet he didn't mention reason one for offshore manufacture - inability to build a factory that might impinge on a "wetland," create smoke from foundry operations, or produce a never-ending suite of lawsuits from people whose interests were preservation of the status quo, not production of goods, provision of services, payment of wages and therefore taxes.

One of the greatest problems with the early offshore machines - Taiwan - was that they were hand-fitted because the machinery wasn't modern enough to produce interchangeable parts. They were able to invest in machines, not lawyers and environmental studies. In spite of a couple of the participants here, nobody is willing to risk loss of an expensive machine by producing less than it is capable of. You can't make the castings too green or the machine won't work them, or the tolerances so poor that the next operation is compromised.

Know what else scares me? All the robots they're putting in locally to make parts out of raw castings have foreign nameplates. SiL is with the Germans this week. Remember how "made in West Germany" carried the same cachet as "made in Japan?" Another story now.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Mark - I don't think it's totally correct to label East and West cultures as being high or low quality. Remember 1950's cheap tin kids toys from Japan? In spite of Toyota's recent issues, the Japanese auto industry is what got Detroit to stop spewing out junk for the masses. Chinese (or Southeast Asian, or Indian, or where ever) quality is all based upon what they'll be paid for the product. Pure and simple capitalism. We rant and rave about cheaply made tools, but still buy the lowest price ones out there. I had a long talk with a major manufacturer's rep about small lathes being all made off-shore. He said they were forced to because no one would pay for one made here. They did hold (at that time it was Taiwanese) the manufacturer to higher quality standards than they were originally going to produce, but they had to cut their profit margin to distributors to do so. Everything has a cost, and there's tons of history of US manufacturers putting out grossly inferior products.

Walt

I think you misread me. I didn't reference the "East" in pejorative terms, merely noted the difference in goals orientation with regard to the end product. Both cultures are equally capable of producing the same quality product.

When the tool-whores first outsourced their manufacturing, they did so to avoid the higher cost of US production, and took advantage of the different cultural bias. They did so by derating the specifications on the products. The stuff was made cheap because it was ordered to be made cheap, not because the Taiwanese, Japanese, or Chinese couldn't make high quality. They all could, but then the price "out the factory door" would begin to approach what it cost to make domestically, and, as you learned from the rep, the profit disappeared.

I remember when the first transistor radios hit the US market back in the 50's and Honda cars hit the streets in the early 60's. I remember the jingoistic jokes about looking on the inside of their car doors to find either "Schlitz" or "Budweiser" still there from the recycled beer cans the Japanese allegedly used rather than the "fine American Steel" in domestic cars.

Nobody jokes about Sony or Samsung electronics, or Honda cars, or Nikon cameras any more. They all learned from us to set their own high standards. JET built its brand by increasing the quality of its specifications, and using real quality control before the stuff hit the "water." Bernie Mathes, the original owner of Serious Lathe, had his machines made in Asia, and they'd match any lathe on the market, regardless of where it was made.

Omega [our beloved Stubby] could skimp on the cast iron alloy they make and use, or the gauge and alloy of their steel components, but Rob and company have chosen to use the best. We have to expect to pay for that choice.