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Where does lathe weight do the most good?

Odie

Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
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I am only offering an opinion here......and if extra weight is added to a lathe base/stand/legs to dampen vibration (and therefore improve the cut), it won't help. Might help to keep the lathe from "walking", but if the purpose is to improve the efficiency of the cut, it won't. Any vibration passing through the lathe downwards, has already passed the zone where it will help to improve the cut. It seems to me that added weight at the headstock, and possibly the bed of the lathe are the places where this kind of vibration can be addressed with any level of success.

Your thoughts on this?

-----odie-----
 
Vibration is caused by many factors.

1 External, such as highway, wind trains etc. This is solved by moving or isolation.

2 The lathe itself, motor, belts, bearings, electronic drive system. This is solved by repair and not using the lathe at speeds that amplify the vibration or dampening the system with weights as you noted.

3 The rotating mass, the wood itself. As you are talking finish cuts, not balancing a slab it would depend on the internal structure of the wood. This would be knots or dense and soft spots in the wood. This would be difficult to isolate as as it is between the tool and wood interface. A metal lathe holds the tool fixed to the lathe without the human interface. Perhaps a damped tool? Not working at a speed that resonates or amplifies the vibration.

Perhaps in the future someone can design a robotic system that follows our movement but holds the tool in a very stable system. Sort of like robotic surgery.

Stu
 
I tend to agree with Odie ... IMHO, the higher you can place extra ballast (and thus, closer to the source of vibration), the better.

I had a Nova DVR 2024 that vibrated terribly with an off-balance piece. I made a 2x4 & plywood shelf with sand bags for the brackets on the bottom of the legs ... helped some, but still no satisfied. Replaced it with an enclosure halfway up the legs and loaded it with 140 pounds of sand tubes ... made a big difference.

When Powermatic redesigned the 3520, they added considerable weight to the bed and tailstock of the C model.
 
Ideally, setting aside such factors as bearing loads and start/stop times, the extra weight (well balanced) should be in the chuck, faceplate, an inboard flywheel or a massive spindle (which would do double duty in providing both mass and reduced flexure in response to the unbalanced load of the workpiece).
 
When you turn a large out of balance billet on a lathe you are exerting these energies into the spindle and bearings which have to absorb and transmit these energies to the other parts of the machine. If you are exceeding the design capabilities of the spindle and bearings and the overall size of the machine you will shorten it's life expectancy. By adding weight/mass to the machine you are changing the frequency that the machine will resonate at. All rotating equipment will encounter an RPM that will create a harmonic resonant vibration based on the design and mass of the equipment. Working around this problem is usually accomplished by slowing or increasing the speed of the machine to avoid this frequency, in the industrial world they program VFD's on large equipment to bypass certain frequencies and RPM's to avoid these resonant vibrations. You could add a thousand pounds of weight to the machine and not see any vibration but possibly see the spindle and bearings melt down and fail. The out of balance energies must be absorbed or dissipated in some fashion by the machine based on the laws of physics.
 
When Powermatic redesigned the 3520, they added considerable weight to the bed and tailstock of the C model.


Which, in turn, brings up another point of consideration.....the differences in steel vs cast iron for their ability to absorb vibration. Since the beginning of time, I've been hearing that cast iron is the more efficient in this respect. Personally, I can't say, as the last two lathes I've owned have been cast iron......the first lathe was a Shopsmith, and there is no comparison, but it's not a heavy duty lathe from the git-go. Maybe things like construction design, and overall weight will be considerations. I believe, normally, steel is heavier than cast iron, given equal volumes of material.....that could be a point to also consider.....?

I'm speaking beyond my knowledge here......so, this subject is open for discussion......😀

-----odie-----
 
I tried adding weight to my lathe (lots of it). It worked. I also tried putting a weight on a bar attached to and above the headstock. Can't remember where I saw the article on how to do this but may have been in American Woodturner. This worked quite well except you had to constantly move the weight up or down on the bar because as you removed wood the balance of the piece would change. So I abandoned that pretty quick. My friend who turned a lot of off balance pieces solved the problem by simply extending the footpring of the lathe. He added 3" angle iron that was 1/2" thick and 8 feet long to the legs of his Powermatic. Just bolted it on the bottom. He did cut the top portion off on the tailstock inboard side off so that it produced less of a trip hazard. That worked extremely well. I'm planning on adding a smaller version of that to my lathe as soon as I get my new shop back to where I can turn regularly.
 
I tried adding weight to my lathe (lots of it). It worked. I also tried putting a weight on a bar attached to and above the headstock. Can't remember where I saw the article on how to do this but may have been in American Woodturner. This worked quite well except you had to constantly move the weight up or down on the bar because as you removed wood the balance of the piece would change. So I abandoned that pretty quick. My friend who turned a lot of off balance pieces solved the problem by simply extending the footpring of the lathe. He added 3" angle iron that was 1/2" thick and 8 feet long to the legs of his Powermatic. Just bolted it on the bottom. He did cut the top portion off on the tailstock inboard side off so that it produced less of a trip hazard. That worked extremely well. I'm planning on adding a smaller version of that to my lathe as soon as I get my new shop back to where I can turn regularly.

Howdy John......I'd be interested in seeing some pics of that when you get it done.....😀

-----odie-----
 
the extra weight (well balanced) should be in the chuck, faceplate, an inboard flywheel or a massive spindle
This is certainly true from my observations.

The Nova DVR is an example. While it has the lightest ways of any 16” lathe i’ve turned on, its massive headstock makes have the least vibration of any 16” lathe I’ve turned on.

When I demo on mini/midi lathe I like to use a large vicmarc Chuck for the extra weight.

The vicmarc off center chuck is massive with rotating counter balance weights. Attempts to balance everything at the spindle. Sort of an inboard flywheel
 
Important points, that can't be made often enough (Mike et Al):
Vibration doesn't just disappear! If you tie/bolt/weigh down your lathe and prevent it from kangarooing all over your workshop, you let your spindle and bearings take the abuse.
 
Important points, that can't be made often enough (Mike et Al):
Vibration doesn't just disappear! If you tie/bolt/weigh down your lathe and prevent it from kangarooing all over your workshop, you let your spindle and bearings take the abuse.

The company I work for has facilities all around the world in multiple industries when applications and equipment are miss-applied I have seen large diameter scroll shafts, blower shafts and motor shafts melted in half from miss-alignment, coupling failure and bearing failure. The appropriate place to apply weight for an out of balance billet is on the face plate or billet itself, this balances the load on the equipment and reduces the energy imparted on the spindle and bearings.

Bent_Motor_Shaft - Copy.jpg
 
Well, from observations, vibration comes from many things. I agree with John about the foot print. A wider foot splaying does wonders for balancing the lathe. My old PM 3520A was up on 4x4s, which butted into a wall. Very stable. I think the Robust excels at this. I look at some lathes like the Nova. Laguna, and Jet where they have good cast iron legs, but a more narrow foot print. Not as stable as the wider legs. I don't have a lot of time (maybe 60 bowls) on my Vic 240, with the pivoting headstock. With it, the turning side legs are more vertical, and the back side legs splay out. Thus far, it seems very stable in long bed mode, pretty stable in 30 degree pivot, and a bit more wobbly in 90 degree pivot mode. More experimenting needed.

Another stability thing is head stock 'attachment'. One of Stuart Batty's demonstration comments is always about how sliding headstocks are more prone to vibration issue because they are not fixed as securely to the bed as the bolted down ones. This is a 'kind of' thing to me. Mostly it is about all the different styles of plates on the bottom of the headstocks. Some use the same pressure plate which is on the tailstock, which is just wrong because the forces on the headstock are so much more than what you have on the tailstock, DUH! With my Beauty, the headstock plate is the same size as the headstock base. This is the proper way to do it.

Another issue is the actual mounting point for your chuck on the headstock spindle. My cheater stick, which is the measure from the headstock to the face of my chuck jaws (I have a video on it 'Finding the bottom of the bowl), is different on all my lathes. On my Vic, it is about 3 5/8 inches from the headstock tower, which I would expect would be the same as the standard Vic bolted down version, and 2 1/2 inches from the round plate it swivels on. On my old PM3520A, it was 4 3/8 inches. On my AB, the measure is 6 1/2 inches. No clue to how far that measure would be on the Laguna lathes with that long cone. The farther your mount is cantilevered away from the headstock, the more vibration issues you will have.

As for steel vs cast iron beds and frames, the only real difference I could tell between my PM and my AB was that they made different noises when I turned.

Finally there is leveling of the feet on what ever surface your lathe sits on. I didn't consider this till I got my Vic. So, I put my level on it, got it level in 2 planes, then put a piece of wood on it. Turn up the speed till it it vibrates, then go to one foot leveling screw, and back it off till it is off the ground, then slowly screw it back down till vibration goes to almost 0, then tighten up the nut. It did take another few 'micro' adjustments to perfect it.

Oh, Another thing Stuart mentioned was to make sure you keep the under part of the sliding headstock clean. If you slide a lot, and I do, you do get micro particles of wood under it, which tend to build up and can make for a weak mount. I knew this, but didn't take it too seriously... I would guess that too much dust/chip build up on the headstock and tailstock pressure plates could also add to the problem...

robo hippy
 
Odie, my opinion is you need to consider the entire lathe including the stand. IMO if there is not enough weight in the stand you will see more vibration in the headstock. What is enough is a good question. I also believe lathe setup has a significant effect.

I look at some lathes like the Nova. Laguna, and Jet where they have good cast iron legs, but a more narrow foot print.

Just to be clear the Laguna 18-36 has a 26" leg splay, 2” more than the 3520B.

For information with a record SC4 chuck on the Laguna 18-36 the measurement from the headstock is 7 3/8 to the face of the chuck jaws. My opinion differs from yours as is if the cone or flange as is on the AB was adding to vibration that this would be movement independent of the headstock casting. This would lead to fatigue and eventually failure of the casting.
 
Have you ever driven down the highway with a wheel that has lost a weight, it only takes an ounce or two to throw the wheel out of balance to where the wheel is bouncing off of the surface of the road affecting the ride and steering of the car. At 60 mph the average vehicle tire is rotating at 840 RPM's an ounce or two of weight is causing a 50 pound wheel to bounce off the road. Increase the speed 20% and you end up in the ditch. Pretend your lathe is the car and your wood billet is the tire. Add an ounce or two of weight to the billet and the problem could go away. Many woodturners turning large billets have used counterweights on odd shaped root balls and burls to overcome these types of problems.
 
Somewhat on topic... check out the configuration of the Stratos XL lathe with turning the headstock 90° to the lathe bed. The video starts showing this around 4:00 minutes.

View: https://youtu.be/D54-ZBiEbv0


I'd never even heard of the lathe until just recently. I have no idea if this would actually help, but it's an interesting concept I'd like to see in person.
 
I'd never even heard of the lathe until just recently. I have no idea if this would actually help, but it's an interesting concept I'd like to see in person.

Now that is an interesting concept. I've never heard of it either. Looks like some real innovation going on with this lathe! 😀

-----odie-----
 
Odie, Im confused. Is your question about hi frequency low amplitude vibration while in a cut, or out of balance objects causing low frequency hi amplitude vibration, causing the tool rest/tool to bounce? They are very different questions & answers.
 
Odie, Im confused. Is your question about hi frequency low amplitude vibration while in a cut, or out of balance objects causing low frequency hi amplitude vibration, causing the tool rest/tool to bounce? They are very different questions & answers.


Hello Doug.......😀

My concern is the vibration that can be measured while the wood is spinning.....not while interacting with the tool.

I don't think anything can be done to reduce vibrations directly resulting from tool cutting the wood. That, it would seem to me, is too erratic, because the variables are too many to compensate for them, other than your own human senses of what is working, during the cut. They are what they are, but the lowest level of vibrations can certainly be determined, if the wood is spinning on the lathe statically (so, to speak).

-----odie-----
 
So bounce, not buzz. Hi amplitude low frquency (freq determined by spindle rpm) can be dealt with using mass. The stiffness, not mass, of any connecting components to the large mass is very important. A stiff structure can translate kenetic energy to a large mass with little deflection. So, a large mass placed across the bottom of lathe legs can work, and how well depends on the stiffness of the connecting components. However, The closer the large mass can be placed to the origin of the energy, ie the spindle centerline, the less the length of the torque arm, thus reducing the forces and required stiffness. So yes, more massive spindles, head and tail stocks, and bed rails all contribute positively.

But, spindly legged lathes can be helped tremendously with properly weight placement and stiffening of the legs - I had one and was able to greatly improve the bounce issue by tying the legs together with 1/2” plywood, making the stand a torsion box (essentially boxing the stand in). A shelf 1/2 way down the legs loaded with a couple hundred pounds provided more mass which the torsion box structure translated the forces to.

As for spindle bearing loads, more spindle bearings are probably trashed by thrust loads introduced by the operator, ie beating on something inline with the spindle (most use caged ball design that is great for radial loads but have lower thrust capability, and not intended for impact thrust loads). Very high thrust generated by really cranking in the tailstock can take them out over time as well. Depends on the specific lathe and mfr.
 
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So bounce, not buzz. Hi amplitude low frquency (freq determined by spindle rpm) can be dealt with using mass. The stiffness, not mass, of any connecting components to the large mass is very important. A stiff structure can translate kenetic energy to a large mass with little deflection. So, a large mass placed across the bottom of lathe legs can work, and how well depends on the stiffness of the connecting components. However, The closer the large mass can be placed to the origin of the energy, ie the spindle centerline, the less the length of the torque arm, thus reducing the forces and required stiffness. So yes, more massive spindles, head and tail stocks, and bed rails all contribute positively.

But, spindly legged lathes can be helped tremendously with properly weight placement and stiffening of the legs - I had one and was able to greatly improve the bounce issue by tying the legs together with 1/2” plywood, making the stand a torsion box (essentially boxing the stand in). A shelf 1/2 way down the legs loaded with a couple hundred pounds provided more mass which the torsion box structure translated the forces to.

As for spindle bearing loads, more spindle bearings are probably trashed by thrust loads introduced by the operator, ie beating on something inline with the spindle (most use caged ball design that is great for radial loads but have lower thrust capability, and not intended for impact thrust loads). Very high thrust generated by really cranking in the tailstock can take them out over time as well. Depends on the specific lathe and mfr.


Howdy again, Doug.....

This is essentially what was said about weight on the headstock and bedways, and Al made a great point about the Nova DVR lathe that has the motor directly attached to the spindle. However, any vibration that passes beyond those points is essentially gone from the places where it will make a difference in the ability to influence the static vibrations inherent to the spinning wood. It's definitely still a vibration when it's in the legs or weight placed between them, and expending effort in these areas is not going to be of significant influence where it can do the most good. In other words, you can place ten tons of weight between the legs, and it will have little effect on the ability of a flimsy light lathe to enable the operator to produce a smooth cut........but,........if you place weight at the headstock, and/or bedways.....those two places that directly interact between the tool rest and wood, this will have a greater, more positive effect in the ability to influence the cut. Any weight, or mass, or stiffness outside of these parameters, will have a direct effect on the entire lathe, but not the interactions between the headstock, and the bedways themselves.

-----odie-----
 
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This brings to mind the differences between the ability of mass to absorb vibration. We've all heard the old saying about cast iron's ability to absorb vibration......but, is this true? Is weight less significant an influence than mass?......or, is it a combination of the two. (I believe it likely is, and 100lbs of cast iron, with it's additional mass, is likely more positively effecting vibration, than 100lbs of steel, with it less mass.) Is there a difference between cast iron, steel?......a bag of sand, bricks, various metal objects? Probably, but there is more to consider, than just mass/weight.......

I do believe Doug makes a great point about the "stiffness" of connecting components, and that is a directly related consideration.

-----odie-----
 
My Vega 2600 is very crude in comparison to most of the lathes mentioned here, but their solution was to use a large, heavy steel square channel to house the spindle and its bearings, and fill the channel with cement. It's not pretty, but it ensures that the mass is close to the spindle.
 
My Vega 2600 is very crude in comparison to most of the lathes mentioned here, but their solution was to use a large, heavy steel square channel to house the spindle and its bearings, and fill the channel with cement. It's not pretty, but it ensures that the mass is close to the spindle.

Hello Grant.....

I do believe the Vega has a one-up in the game of eliminating vibration where it counts. I do wonder how stable that block of cement is, given time.....?????

Is cement a stable component, as to it's shape? Will it change it's shape, by absorbing, or eliminating moisture, according to the environment it's in?

You would know the ultimate answer to that one better than I would.....😀

-----odie-----

edit: If that block of cement is completely sealed from the external environment, that would make a difference, it seems. Also, if the cement is completely dry, and no MC, that too, would seem to effect the internal volume it's able to maintain......? Just pondering here.....speculating.
 
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I think the ability of cast iron to absorb vibration better than steel has more to do with its stiffness over flexibility. Steel is more able to flex than cast iron so like a spring flexing harmonics can be induced dependent on the shape of the steel. Also a very minor nitpick, a hundred pound mass of steel is the same weight as 100 pound mass of cast iron as weight is the reaction of mass to gravity. The proper terminology would be density, which is determined by how much room that mass occupies. Try picking up a lead block and a steel block of the same size, density becomes very obvious then.
 
Howdy again, Doug.....

This is essentially what was said about weight on the headstock and bedways, and Al made a great point about the Nova DVR lathe that has the motor directly attached to the spindle. However, any vibration that passes beyond those points is essentially gone from the places where it will make a difference in the ability to influence the static vibrations inherent to the spinning wood. It's definitely still a vibration when it's in the legs or weight placed between them, and expending effort in these areas is not going to be of significant influence where it can do the most good. In other words, you can place ten tons of weight between the legs, and it will have little effect on the ability of a flimsy light lathe to enable the operator to produce a smooth cut........but,........if you place weight at the headstock, and/or bedways.....those two places that directly interact between the tool rest and wood, this will have a greater, more positive effect in the ability to influence the cut. Any weight, or mass, or stiffness outside of these parameters, will have a direct effect on the entire lathe, but not the interactions between the headstock, and the bedways themselves.

-----odie-----

Well, I have to disagree. For an off balance piece spinning on a wood lathe, location of the ballast mass is best closest to the CL, as less structure exists that needs to transmit the force. A ballast located below the CL and firmly connected through a properly stiff structure will provide the same resistance to movement in the vertical plane as if on the CL. Resistance to movement in the horizontal is a function of lever arm length. Points of floor support, which provide reaction forces, are significant in both cases. It is very worthwhile to expend effort to both stiffen and add ballast to a spindly legged stand. Stiffness applies to the banjo and tool rest, and especially a tool rest extension.

As for the cement in the Vega lathe, the structural integrity of the cement (cracks, voids) and the mechanical connection of the cement to the steel are both important as these effect the stiffness of the assembly. While the mass will remain constant, reduction in stiffness will theoretically degrade with stiffness reduction (similar to a cracked weld).

Mass vs weight - mass is the amount of something, weight is the pull of gravity on the same. A chunk of steel weighs 5 lbs on earth, but 0.825 lbs on the moon, yet the mass did not change.

Vibration absorption of cast iron vs steel - with the low frequency hi amplitude vibration we are discussing, it is irrelevant. The same weight of both will do the same. The stiffness of the given structure is of more importance, given equal weight. Resonance frequency that occurs when making a cut (low amplitude hi frequency) is different, and cast iron can have some benefit.
 
Well, I have to disagree. For an off balance piece spinning on a wood lathe, location of the ballast mass is best closest to the CL, as less structure exists that needs to transmit the force. A ballast located below the CL and firmly connected through a properly stiff structure will provide the same resistance to movement in the vertical plane as if on the CL. Resistance to movement in the horizontal is a function of lever arm length. Points of floor support, which provide reaction forces, are significant in both cases. It is very worthwhile to expend effort to both stiffen and add ballast to a spindly legged stand. Stiffness applies to the banjo and tool rest, and especially a tool rest extension.

As for the cement in the Vega lathe, the structural integrity of the cement (cracks, voids) and the mechanical connection of the cement to the steel are both important as these effect the stiffness of the assembly. While the mass will remain constant, reduction in stiffness will theoretically degrade with stiffness reduction (similar to a cracked weld).

Mass vs weight - mass is the amount of something, weight is the pull of gravity on the same. A chunk of steel weighs 5 lbs on earth, but 0.825 lbs on the moon, yet the mass did not change.

Vibration absorption of cast iron vs steel - with the low frequency hi amplitude vibration we are discussing, it is irrelevant. The same weight of both will do the same. The stiffness of the given structure is of more importance, given equal weight. Resonance frequency that occurs when making a cut (low amplitude hi frequency) is different, and cast iron can have some benefit.


OK, we'll leave it at that, Doug......we disagree on the first point.

Agree on the second point.

The third point has no relevance in this discussion.

Gary Beasley's post is appropriate to your fourth point.

-----odie-----
 
@odie: I can't say if there are voids in the cement or if it is affected over time by temperature and humidity. I think it would be a stretch to say that the headstock/steel channel is air tight around the cement. I do know that the configuration seems to work for me, but I don't turn much compared to you guys and the stuff that I do turn is not generally terribly out of balance for long. On those occasions when I've turned extremely off centre stuff, I've mounted them to a piece of plywood to which I've attached counterbalancing weights.

@Doug: Forgive my ignorance, but what is CL? (center of load??)
 
OK, we'll leave it at that, Doug......we disagree on the first point.

Agree on the second point.

The third point has no relevance in this discussion.

Gary Beasley's post is appropriate to your fourth point.

-----odie-----
Let me know when you have completed your studies of statics, strength of materials, structural design, and dynamics. I want to know if you still disagree. The 3rd point was answering your question, which is now irrelevant? Ok.
 
@odie: I can't say if there are voids in the cement or if it is affected over time by temperature and humidity. I think it would be a stretch to say that the headstock/steel channel is air tight around the cement. I do know that the configuration seems to work for me, but I don't turn much compared to you guys and the stuff that I do turn is not generally terribly out of balance for long. On those occasions when I've turned extremely off centre stuff, I've mounted them to a piece of plywood to which I've attached counterbalancing weights.

@Doug: Forgive my ignorance, but what is CL? (center of load??)

CL = centerline referring to the axial reference of the spindle shaft.

MC = moisture content

-----odie-----
 
Let me know when you have completed your studies of statics, strength of materials, structural design, and dynamics. I want to know if you still disagree. The 3rd point was answering your question, which is now irrelevant? Ok.


OK, I will......however, the only thing that counts for me is results, and given the human input to lathe turning, the relevance of theory is sometimes altered. 😀

-----odie-----
 
OK, I will......however, the only thing that counts for me is results, and given the human input to lathe turning, the relevance of theory is sometimes altered. 😀

-----odie-----

Just trying to help with both theoretical and application experience. As the old saying goes “ you can lead ‘em to water but you cant make ‘em drink.”
 
Just trying to help with both theoretical and application experience. As the old saying goes “ you can lead ‘em to water but you cant make ‘em drink.”

True.......and, results are the only thing that counts! (also true!)

-----odie-----
 
Where does lathe weight do the most good?

And the answer is, the biggest sized quality manufactured spindle and bearings appropriately sized for the headstock mounted on a solidly designed lathe ways supported by a set of legs engineered to carry the machine mounted on top.

I picked up 5-tons of brick in my Nissan pickup truck and it seems to vibrate while driving down the highway when I go any faster then 30 MPH.
And the answer is get a bigger truck.

You could have a precision spindle heat treat hardened and turned and install a heavy duty set of precision bearings in the headstock to minimize the vibration from the slop in these components of the lathe. I got a quote from a machine shop to do this if you have 5-10 grand laying around.
 
wow, lot of stuff here regarding weight. I realize that I'm reading this 6 months after you all chimed in but I thought I'd add in my experience. I have a DVR-XP which I'm ver happy with. One of the reasons I bought it was specifically the ability to buy it without the legs because I wanted to make a stand of my own with storage built in. (attached picture) It weighs about 300lbs loaded with tools and 200lbs of sand in the bottom. But the point I wanted to make was in adding weight. I do a lot of natural edge bowls which are usually out of balanced until roughted out. Many times I will rotate the headstock 180 degrees because I can turn about 10-15% higher speed. The difference being how the weight is distributed.
 
Having grown up in the automotive machining industry the terms used are “forged” crank shaft and “cast” crank shaft. The forged crankshaft is steel. The cast crank shaft is also steel but is commonly believed and misnamed as “cast iron”. The idea being that anything cast is automatically cast iron. I am willing to bet that most of the cast lathes out there are cast steel not cast iron.
How this relates to vibrations and harmonics or anything else is to be determined.
I also own a DVR XP lathe which I built a stand for. I used a mild steel 6” box beam and 2”x2” mild steel tube. It is quite heavy and does what I need it to do.
Oh, I haven’t completed my studies that Doug brought up nor have I began them.
 
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