What would you say the optimum size "swing" is?

[Odie]

It was summer of 2007 that I came really close to purchasing a new Vicmarc 300 lathe.....the 24" swing long bed. At the very last moment, I changed my mind and decided my 16" Australian made Woodfast will not only outlast my time on this earth......it will be just fine for turning 99.999% of the wood I'll ever want to turn. Besides, I kind of like the old machine......had it for 16yrs now, and I'm very comfortable with it. (Kinda like an "ol' lady" that has a few wrinkles.....but, is more beautiful than any of the young fillies could ever hope to be!!!!! If you know what I mean!)

One of the things that convinced me to keep the Woodfast, is I can only remember a couple of blocks of wood available to me that were bigger than 16" diameter. I've been turning a long time now, and I can't recall ever having something bigger than 20" available to me......that is, defect free. I would have liked to have those few blocks that were in the 16" to 20" range, but for me, there is no regular supply of wood chunks that big.

For my way of looking at it, I'd say the most useful size swing would be 20"......but, if I were to buy a new lathe, I think I'd go for the 24" swing.....just to cover the bases if I should ever run across a chunk of wood that big! 😉

In the mean time, I've very pleased with the usefulness and quality of my 16" Australian Woodfast.

Question: How many of you have a supply of defect free, aesthetically pleasing bowl blocks that are 16"......20"......24".....???? How many of you have 20", or 24" capacity.......but, have never had wood to test it out?

I know of someone that's building a 36" swing lathe! Seems like this might be more for "bragging rights" than anything based on a realistic assessment of wood that's available to the average turner. I realize a few (very few), very huge pieces of wood are out there.......but, require enormous effort to find and get them......something I'm not willing to do, even if I lived in an area where hardwood were abundantly available. (I'll leave those for Ed Moulthrop!)

Thoughts? Comments? Whatever......

otis of cologne

 

[john lucas]

I can occasionally get good wood in the 24" sizes. I have a walnut log being cut right now that is 24-26" I have a lathe with 20" swing. I've only turned 2 other bowls this size. I cannot sell bowls that size in my market so it's really a waste of time to make them. 12" is about max. I do have plans to move my bed extension down. I have a 3520A Powermatic but I think I can modify the legs to take the bed extension. I'm going to turn one more large bowl out of this walnut tree but if I have as much trouble selling it as I did the last 2 I don't see a reason to turn anything larger than 12 to 16".
I do plan to turn some offcenter work that might take my full 20" swing or more. To me that makes more sense than making really large bowls. Now wall hangings might be different. I haven't done any of those but might consider it with this big walnut log.

 

[Odie]

I can occasionally get good wood in the 24" sizes. I have a walnut log being cut right now that is 24-26" I have a lathe with 20" swing. I've only turned 2 other bowls this size. I cannot sell bowls that size in my market so it's really a waste of time to make them. 12" is about max. I do have plans to move my bed extension down. I have a 3520A Powermatic but I think I can modify the legs to take the bed extension. I'm going to turn one more large bowl out of this walnut tree but if I have as much trouble selling it as I did the last 2 I don't see a reason to turn anything larger than 12 to 16".
I do plan to turn some offcenter work that might take my full 20" swing or more. To me that makes more sense than making really large bowls. Now wall hangings might be different. I haven't done any of those but might consider it with this big walnut log.

I knew you'd chime in right away, John!

So.......can I count a vote for 12" swing as being your optimum?

otis of cologne

PS: Personally, if I could get a steady stream of great looking defect free woods in the 12, to about 14-15" range, probably wouldn't spend a lot of time with anything smaller!

I really dislike making bowls in the 6" to 8" range (or smaller)......but, sometimes you gotta go with what you have!

OOC

 

[Bill Grumbine]

I think 25" is the optimum sized swing. 😉 Of course, I have some fresh logs in my back yard that weighed in at approximately 1100 lbs each. I was given one very large Norway maple log that the crane operator said weighed 5500 lbs. We had to cut it into five pieces to get it onto my trailer in a way that I could get it back off. So I have five logs just from one tree that are over 40" in diameter. But even with them, and numerous other logs that size and bigger, that is not the issue. As it has been mentioned it is hard to find customers to buy stuff that big.

A big swing is nice for having the room and the stability to do smaller things without having to contort yourself or your banjo around the wood. With a larger swing, I can very easily turn those 12"-14" pieces without straining or taxing the machine. And with big swing comes big weight and a big motor, which means smooth turning, and that is just plain old fun. 😀

 

[john lucas]

Now if were talking about mass that's another matter. I love my Powermatic over my older Nova 3000 and my very old rebuilt J line, for one main reason. Mass. I still don't turn things any bigger but it is much faster because the lathe is so much more stable. The horsepower doesn't hurt either although I had plenty on both of those lathes because I added different motors.
As Bill mentioned it is also nice to not have to worry about getting the log perfectly round before roughing. With the larger swing you can just mount the blank and start turning even if it has a small protrusion of some kind. On the smaller lathes I had to cut this off somehow to clear the bed of the lathe.

 

[John Jordan]

Bill's right. Or plenty of clearance around your typical pieces at least. I can't count the people I've met over the years that "needed" a BIG lathe. Very few ever use anywhere near the real capacity of a large swing lathe, but it's nice to have that working room. I could still do MOST of what I do now on the Woodfast I used to have, or one of the 16" Jets for that matter. But I'll stick with the Stubby I guess.

Big pieces are the woodturning Albatross-you're gonna be stuck with it because nobody wants it. On the other hand, a little scale can look good if you have the right way to show it.

Back in 89 I believe, at the Seattle AAW Conference, someone had made a big burl bowl that four or five of us could have sta in like a hot tub-it was huge. It was also so ugly, that even the folks you would expect to be gathered around it pretty much ignored it.😀 There's probably a lesson there somewhere.

John

 

[Dick Sowa]

The availability of blanks in huge sizes is one thing, but one other issue might swing the decision. And that is segmented bowls. Theoretically, you could design and turn a segmented bowl in just about any conceivable size. Of course, if you never plan to turn segmented bowls, then the size of available blanks ought to be your governing criteria.

 

[GeorgeH]

You can turn small stuff of a big lathe but you can't turn big stuff on a small lathe so I vote for the largest swing machine your shop will handle; huge specialty lathes excepted.

 

[Odie]

Wow! We are getting some well known names in the woodturning world to give some opinions here.......I'm impressed......and grateful that you make me think.....and address my own thoughts and conclusions!

Machine mass, or weight.....and how it applies to stability. Now, there is a concept I'd like to address for a moment.

We've all heard about how lathe stability (mass, or weight, along with anchoring it to concrete, etc.) directly relates to stability of the wood you are turning. This is very true......if we are discussing a 100lb lathe that isn't anchored, compared to a 500lb lathe that is. However, when discussing a bowl blank that is within the capacity of the two lathes, there is a point of diminishing returns by simply adding more weight, or mass to the lathe. When realizing this, it's easy to see that a myth exists in the turning world about adding machine weight, or mass, and how it seems to be viewed as a panacea for solving all vibrational problems.

There are a number of things that determine the internal stability of the bowl that is being turned. 1) surface area of the attachment point. 2) the height of the bowl, or the distance between the attachment point and where you will be cutting. 3) The bowl diameter. 4) The speed, or rpm. 5) The sharpness of your tool. 6) The amount of material you remove in one revolution. 7) The species......or more specifically.....the physical dynamics of the individual piece of wood you are turning. 8) The balance of the individual piece of wood you are turning. 9) the wall thickness. 10) Probably is more than that!

I've found that, no matter how stable the lathe is, there is a point where vibrations not generated from an out-of-balance condition cannot be absorbed by lathe mass. There are only a few things that can be done to address this......mainly, reducing rpm, sharp tools, and taking smaller cuts.

The main point I'm trying to make here......is that lathe mass cannot address problems that are not generated from other than an out-of-balance condition. Without reducing rpm, having sharp tools, or taking smaller cuts.....that bowl will vibrate, no matter how stable your lathe is.

Back to the main subject: For those of you that have the resources to obtain very large pieces of wood, I certainly understand how your thoughts about lathe "swing" will vary....and your concept of the optimum swing is reflected in that.

For those potential customer comments I've heard......I've always heard about how they want "big" bowls. I'm surprised to hear about the "albatross" comment, and that they are generally unsaleable. 😕 When they hear how expensive they are, most go away because they are not prepared to pay that much......but, there are always a few where cost is no object! I don't know if my feelings are the same as everyone else's, because to me, big is 16"......but, they most assuredly are different, for a variety of reasons......because in lathe turning, individuality is certainly a focal point.

thoughts?

otis of cologne

 

[robo hippy]

I find trees in the 30 inch range fairly easy to come by. In our rainy part of the country, with 50 inches of rain a year, a silver maple or elm will have half inch growth rings, meaning a 30 year old tree is 30 inches in diameter. I got a big leaf maple this summer that was 39 years old, and 36 inch in diameter. As far as swing, the main thing I noticed when switching from the PM to the Robust was that the bed is lower, and my tools when left on the ways were harder to reach, but I got used to it. For sales purposes, bowls in the 16 inch range and less sell best for me. I did sell a 22 inch diameter by 7 inch deep blm bowl this weekend, but it was ordered by a regular customer. Bowls in the 8 to 10 inch range are personal sized, and 12 inchers are 1 to 2 person salad bowls. Some like them bigger. I do like the extra swing, just in case.
robo hippy

 

[John Nicholas]

Swing

Lathe Swing, like color, seems to be somewhat a personal preference. I had not given that much thought when I bought my 3520B. I had turned on an A and a OW and several jets.

I do like the extra room about the 10 - 12 inch pieces that I get with the 20 inch swing. I do like the reverse. The smaller items do just as well.

I have turned roughed 7 items larger than 12 inches. Finished 3 so far. One started out at 19 and ended at 15. Two started and finished at 16. I have one roughed maple crotch at 18. This will like the other two from this tree will be gifts to SWMBO BFF. Her tree, you know. I have some blanks waiting to be turned that are in the 15+ range.

I am not bolted down at this time. I keep my stanley tape measure on the headstock, on the rounded side. If the tape is rocking, I slow down, stop and sharpen or something. I usually find that out of balance is not out of round, but something within the blank. A knot or in pine a pitch pocket. The maple or ash many times will have a void or worm holes that effect balance. Some day I will add a shelf below and some weight there.

All in all the 20 inch swing works well. I have to option to add the bed extension in either position if I wish to go larger. I have left wood several times that would take a 30 inch swing.

John 🙂

 

[Bill Boehme]

We've all heard about how lathe stability (mass, or weight, along with anchoring it to concrete, etc.) directly relates to stability of the wood you are turning. This is very true......if we are discussing a 100lb lathe that isn't anchored, compared to a 500lb lathe that is. However, when discussing a bowl blank that is within the capacity of the two lathes, there is a point of diminishing returns by simply adding more weight, or mass to the lathe. When realizing this, it's easy to see that a myth exists in the turning world about adding machine weight, or mass, and how it seems to be a panacea for solving all vibrational problems.

You have touched on a very important point with respect to vibration caused by unbalanced loads and using either machine mass or anchoring the machine to a concrete foundation as a means of stabilizing the machine. While nobody wants to chase a galloping lathe all around the shop, there is a lot to be said for doing two things:

1. Allow some vibration compliance in the machine rather than trying to make it infinitely stiff. The rationale for allowing the machine to react to an unbalanced load is that doing so will relieve some of the unbalance load from the bearings so that some of the energy can be dissipated through machine reaction. In classical mechanics, this would be something like a mass - spring - viscous damper for dissipating vibration energy. Otherwise, if the machine is made infinitely rigid, then all of the vibration load will go directly to the bearings.
2. Do some preliminary work to get the piece of wood in the ballpark of being balanced before you begin to turn it. The bearings will thank you for your consideration.

 

[MichaelMouse]

[*]Allow some vibration compliance in the machine rather than trying to make it infinitely stiff. The rationale for allowing the machine to react to an unbalanced load is that doing so will relieve some of the unbalance load from the bearings so that some of the energy can be dissipated through machine reaction. In classical mechanics, this would be something like a mass - spring - viscous damper for dissipating vibration energy. Otherwise, if the machine is made infinitely rigid, then all of the vibration load will go directly to the bearings.
[*]Do some preliminary work to get the piece of wood in the ballpark of being balanced before you begin to turn it. The bearings will thank you for your consideration.[/LIST]

What vibration load if the system is infinitely rigid? Can't vibrate if there's no gap or flex. I can't see what advantage is gained by letting the load slap the bearings across some gap where the third law comes into play. Nor, apparently can anyone else, which is why bearings are made the way they are. The load and machine are made one.

If we really want to do the right thing by the bearings, wouldn't we take advantage of the elastic nature of wood, especially wet wood? That way the "vibration" would be controlled by the slop in the mount - BEFORE it gets to the bearings.

Of course, good stand geometry substitutes for "weebling" weight just fine, and people who brag about the mass of their lathe apparently don't realize that the headstock's connected to the lathe ways, the lathe ways connected to the leg bolts ... come to think, all of those points could be used to allow vibration compliance, couldn't they?

To answer the original question, trees are a crop, not pets here, so 14+ is seldom left in the woods to increase. Reduced rate of growth, susceptibility to disease and utility of additional diameter just don't justify it. Makes a 16" pretty good. Or if you have one that swings or slides, what's the difference? You just need to find a different place to rest the tool.

 

[waltben]

Although I seldom round turn complete and solid pieces over 26" in diameter, I found I needed more than my Stubby's 30" swing for oval work and raised the headstock by inserting 2" spacers under it. Doing this has also allowed me to turn irregular shaped (natural edge or whatever) wall hangings that I would not have been able to otherwise.

 

[rsser]

But it's so boring turning large pieces.

Seems time at the lathe increases exponentially with the diameter of the stock.

 

[arbud]

size matters

Swing=as big as you can afford

One can turn small things on a big lathe but one can't turn big things on a small lathe.

 

[Brian Hahn]

Who are you turning for?

If you are turning for sale and there isn't a market for anything larger that 14", a 20" swing is great.

But if you are turning for yourself (i.e. pleasure), why hobble yourself?

Last year I bought a new lathe with a 25" swing. The first piece I turned was a nice walnut double crotch that needed 21" of swing to get it round and centered. Having that extra couple of inches was really nice and I didn't have to worry about clearing the banjo.

This spring I plan to acquire some larger pieces for wall hangings.
Nobody buys pieces that big? Not an issue. They're for me, not for sale.

If it is a hobby, why hobble yourself unnecessarily?

 

[alexc]

My lathe is 12" but has a 16" Outboard swing that I use quite often. I have never gotten any wood over 20" though, I think if I put my mind to it I could find the pieces but moving them might be too much of a hassle. My workshop is tiny and I have to go up and down stairs to go to where I chop the wood in the backyard. I would like to turn that big if I ever get the chance. Personally I think the ideal lathe is the Powermatic 3520 lathe. 20" is perfect for me and it'd be nice to have the outboard ability that it has.

I recently had a bowl explode off the lathe and hit me in the chest. It was not pretty and now I think for all of the big stuff I'd like to be able to turn it between centers. It's a bit more safe.

 

[Wyatt Holm]

I like the big swing of my Vicmarc, my usual size is about 14". I can rev up the speed and it is stable, so I can make quite quickly. I want to set up the outboard end to turn very large pieces up to 50" diameter. But most of the pieces that big would be round table tops. I also would like to try some Ed Moulthrop style of bowls.
Wyatt

 

[Steve Worcester]

I have a 2436, 3hp, and the big outboard with all the bells and whistles. That said, I have only used the outboard maybe 1/2 dozen times. For space considerations, would probably rethink now a days to a Robust or Stubby with a gap bed. I like the lathe, but where I am now is small, more attention to detail. In a few years, i may go back to big and at least I have it.

As I have said before though, turning large is for the brave. One slip and the world goes spinning away.

 

[Donna Banfield]

Steve nailed it. I have pretty much everything that Steve has. And can confirm that, yeah, turing big sounds cool to talk about, but...

1) where do you get turning stock that big?
2) when you come across big turning stock, how do you get it on the lathe?
3) when you turn it, it takes a LOOOOONG time;
4) it's been awhile since I've had a catch turning bowls, (now there's a jinx) but just imagine what a catch on a bowl that size can feel like..... Holy Crap, look out!
5) do you have a market for your finished piece, or will you drag it to shows for 2-3 years before someone is interested, but then asks if you'll knock 20% off the price?

I bought my lathe used, so took what came with it. Have I really needed all of the 24" (or including the outboard, 4') swing? My guess would be that 60% of my work is less than 20".

 

[Gary R Webb]

I turn on the P/M 42/24 dont realy want to lift much biger logs but still can make very small christmass fineals . You can allways wish you had more but selldome wish you had less.🙄