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What is a "Pro" turner?

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This became a discussion topic during a coffee break at our last club meeting: we never concluded with an answer. What does it mean to be a pro turner? By the dictionary definition: "following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain." It could be interpreted as if you sell one piece, you are a pro. Likewise, when I was a kid, if you got paid for a single minor league baseball game, you lost your amateur status and were banned from the Olympics. But what do we accept as the working definition? ..A guy in our club sells $20 K of turnings per year. Is he a pro? Another guy does several demonstrations per year, across the state. Is he a pro? Just curious.
 
Michael you have opened a can of worms here that is very similar to woodturners agreeing on how to dry turned bowls. I have a pretty good idea there will be as many definitions as to what makes a woodturner a pro as there are woodturners. I will throw in my 2 cents and look forward to all the other different opinions. To me a professional woodturner is one who makes and sells their work continually by whatever means they can over the course of a year. Retail sales from festivals, gallery sales, private sales,art contestant winnings, etc..(I am sure the IRS will have a pretty good definition of their own.) I don't feel a one time sale of your work or even a few sales here and there would qualify someone as a professional woodturner. To me it is more of a mindset a woodturner develops and puts into action where making and selling your work becomes a permanent goal for almost every piece you make.(with the exception of gifts).
 
There are different definitions for different purposes, like for taxes for licensing, to prevent charging for certain services without a license. etc. About twenty years ago, our local district attorney, (long now retired) was prosecuting a politician who was caught paying for sex. I'm not sure what motivated the statement, whether an unthinking moment, or two many drinks at lunch, but at the sentencing, he made the statement, " we all pay for sex, whether for cash, or dinner and a movie" There were nationwide jokes about how suddenly a woman who went on a date where the guy paid, and then had sex, was a professional whore and should be arrested. .I remember specifically Jay Leno making fun of the stupid statement. Something to the effect, that if a wife says, Honey is you stop and get a bottle of wine for dinner, you'll get lucky later." Don't do it guy or you will be married to a prostitute. ( On the other hand, Why the prosecutor said something to help the defendant at sentencing was another issue)

Under the uniform commercial code, they look at the matter somewhat differently. The rights and liabilities to certain contracts vary depending on the status as a consumer/non merchant or merchant. A person who is a merchant is one who deals in goods of that kind. It does not even have to be for profit and depending on circumstances, might even be giving the merchandise away for free. A person who swaps and horse trades without money transferring can be a merchant Certain warranties and liabilities attach to transactions whether or not money is involved. .I once bought a truck from a guy. I saw the truck for sale in front of a house with a price sign in the window. The transmission died a week later, and the transmission mechanic said the transmission had recently been worked on because of certain new shiny bolts in the housing. Well I went by that house every week for six weeks. There was always a vehicle sitting there with a for sale sign or price sign and always the same number. I took pictures each time, and then filed suit against the guy under the Maryland law pertaining to vehicle warranties. he screwed up and did not write as is on our hand written contract. I collected $2,400 to put a new transmission in the vehicle. I could prove that he came under the definition of merchant under the law. he "dealt in goods of that kind", ie. bought and sold vehicles as a side business. .

Suppose a turner makes some salad bowls and uses a tainted finish on the bowls and he sells a dozen or so in more than one sale in a year. A person gets sick due to the finish and sues him for breach of warranty of fitness under the commercial code. he has made the bowls and made multiple sales. He is probably a merchant, making him liable for the illness regardless of any fault on his part. .
 
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I forgot to add, some courts look to it and consider whether the person puts goods of that kind into the stream of commerce. A guy that makes items that he gives away, may suddenly be a merchant professional, under the law.
 
There are lots of definitions for professional use din the woodturning community.

1. My preferred definition is a person making a living from turning. I make money but not a living so I call myself a semi-pro

2. A broader basic test is do you pay taxes on woodturning Income? It is reasonable but I don feel I should call myself a professional because I make a small fraction of my income from turning.

3. When I was invited to be on the professional outreach comittee I was told I qualified because I had a professional outlook. Did demos etc. so this is a third definition than has little to do with money.

Al
 
I always heard a Professional Woodturner is someone Whose spouse works. I don't consider myself a pro. I make a very small income from turning. I do write off what I can on my taxes. I tend to think of a Pro as someone who's major income is from turning. They may do other things to make ends meet however.
 
Here's another definition- When I was into bass fishing eons ago, the definition of a pro bass angler was a guy who had the weekend off and the entry fee in his pocket. Didn't matter if he/she made any money.
 
I always called myself a 'semi-pro' because I was able to support my habit, pay a few bills, but not make a living off of it. It looks to me like I well eventually make more money off of my inventions than I ever did from sales of my turnings. Those who are full time pro's cover all the bases: turnings, demonstrations, work shops, video sales, and signature lines of tools. That would be more work than I want to take on.... Plus, I am a lousy business man, I should be restricted to the back room inventing rather than trying to run a business....

robo hippy
 
There are lots of definitions for professional use din the woodturning community.

1. My preferred definition is a person making a living from turning. I make money but not a living so I call myself a semi-pro

2. A broader basic test is do you pay taxes on woodturning Income? It is reasonable but I don feel I should call myself a professional because I make a small fraction of my income from turning.

3. When I was invited to be on the professional outreach comittee I was told I qualified because I had a professional outlook. Did demos etc. so this is a third definition than has little to do with money.

Al
I like what you said Al. That makes me a semi pro too. I could easily become a full time pro, all I need is to work 16 hours a day, get a bigger place and a few more lathes. Then I need a team of people sanding the work, one more cutting blanks all day, another team to go up the mountain and bring the Koa back to my place. I could use a webmaster and a marketing specialist... I would add somebody that would clean up the shop every day and cleans and oils the lathes. I would then need a cafeteria with a gourmet cook to feed all of us breakfast lunch and dinner. Yes, I could get used to been a pro... For a few years I have been turning 7 days a week. I cant keep up with my 2 galleries, an open studio weekend coming up, and all my clients that come to my studio. Yet, I'm far from making a living, I pay all the expenses, electricity, even fixed my O7 dually Dodge last year with studio money, then all the usual things like the endless sandpaper, lacquer, etc. I have been running my studio separate from other things that I have with my tax guy, so I write off a lot of stuff... If the wife doesn't complaint when you get another lathe like I did today, you almost feel like a pro!! I'll be doing my hand chased threads demo at the Honolulu symposium, and then another demo at the Big Island Wailoa exhibition... I was telling a visitor a few months ago, I'm a guy that his hobby got out of hand....
 
I could use a webmaster and a marketing specialist... I would add somebody that would clean up the shop every day and cleans and oils the lathes. I would then need a cafeteria with a gourmet cook to feed all of us breakfast lunch and dinner.
You forgot accounting and payroll to handle all the extra money coming in! And then legal, ...... it never ends.:rolleyes:
 
I could become a pro, but why work that hard. ;) I photographed for probably 60 or more artists over the years and when the topic got around to money to they always said I make enough to get by. Of course none of them were driving BMW's. OK one was he sold high end furniture for 20K and up. I remember I photographed a 9 foot tall chest on chest that he sold for $73,000. Never shot for a turner who was able to do that. :rolleyes:
 
The question was:

WHAT IS A "PRO" TURNER?

There are a lot of answers and opinions about that, and this thread makes that obvious. Much of the input revolves around money, and that is the overwhelming culturally accepted premise to what true success is. Even though I'm trying my best to supplement my social security income......it really isn't about money, and never was about money. Now, taking into consideration the money element of the accepted definition.....I guess I'm a "semi-pro"......but, just barely! I might be able to pay the electric bill every month......but, that's about it. Since my true objective isn't about money at all, then I don't have to fret about whether someone else who does think money is a key element in the definition, would consider me a pro......or not! :D

For me, it's all about driving myself to excellence in turning, and not embellishment. I appreciate embellishment if it's done well, but embellishment isn't excellence in turning, per se'.....Is embellishment art?......well, sure it is, but my definition of a "pro turner" is someone who excels at the actual skills while wood is spinning on the lathe.....and, this is exactly what's the precursor to my own appreciation of what a "pro turner" is.

For my own thinking......there are plenty of pro turners out there......but, many of them are hardly noteworthy among "the herd". :rolleyes: I could name names.....some you will know, and some you will not. Some might even participate in this forum......but, to me.....they are pros. :D

-----odie-----
 
I know half a dozen woodturner who are doing quite well.
They all have a some diversity within the woodturning field.
They derive income from a combination of activities such as
Art market sales
Wholesale sales
Architectural sale
Tool and equipment sales
Teaching
Demonstrating
Videos
Writing
Consulting
.....
 
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Maybe individuals are pro-turners when they get to the point of naming all their turnings. And along with naming turnings comes an artist's statement.
 
For my own thinking......there are plenty of pro turners out there......but, many of them are hardly noteworthy among "the herd". :rolleyes: I could name names.....some you will know, and some you will not. Some might even participate in this forum......but, to me.....they are pros. :D

Not sure what you are trying say.
To have a basis for an informed opinion I have to see works in person or a turner demonstrate or teach.
Videos and live TV can be a suitable stand to assess demonstration ability.

I really can’t make a valid assessment of how well a turner can execute without seeing them execute.
There are few turners well known for their artwork that are pretty rough with the tools IMHO. I would recommend their artwork but not recommend them as a demonstrator.

As far as professionals go I don’t think there are many who went into it for the money excepting perhaps those who took an apprenticeship with the express intent of turning becoming their livelihood.
 
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I consider myself a full-time turner. I earn an income from a variety of woodturning related activities, and I usually am working seven days a week. There are no holidays when you are self-employed, but that's in any business, not just woodturning. I report my income from woodturning related activities and deduct my expenses from same. I have a part-time job that I work roughly 10-12 hours a week, and gives me a regular paycheck 10 months a year. I also have a supportive spouse with a full-time job that helps cover the bills. But I also cover a good share of the bills from my woodturning income. Am I a Pro? No, just a full-time woodturner.
 
I share the feeling of not being a "professional" even though I turn (and market and all that necessary business stuff) mostly full-time and support a family of five (humbly) mostly on woodturning.

I do call myself a professional woodworker, because woodworking has earned 95% of my income for over 25 years—the vast majority not on the lathe. Calling myself anything but professional at this point seems just plain silly when I really think about it, but I still have reservations with the word.

Professional seems to imply master, journeyman, or at least a high degree of mastery. Most of us are fairly humble, and woodturning is a very humbling form of woodwork—because even the best are far from perfect. I for one feel like I have proficient skills in a couple areas of woodturning, but in most areas I am a complete beginner. I have a number of bowls all over the world, but I've never even attempted an end grain box. Heck, I lost my skew chisel for a year and didn't miss it—how on earth could I even consider calling myself a professional turner?

I suspect part of the hesitation in calling ourselves professionals is that very few of us learned from a master or went through a traditional apprenticeship. My dad began his apprenticeship at 15 and was 21 when he was promoted to journeyman machinist. Was he a professional? Of course. There was no question. He was a professional partly because he was recognized as such, and was recognized as being able to do any work that came into the shop.

One thing I really appreciate is all the seasoned woodturners who pat me on the back and say "Good work, keep going." It says I'm doing well for my experience level and it also says I have a long way to go. I've grown bored in some areas of woodwork in the past. After making drawers for a few weeks, the thrill was gone. Not much room for improvement. But I've never felt that with woodturning, and I doubt I ever will.
 
Let’s look at it from another point of view, from the tirners you know, who do you consider a pro turner?

I think the bottom line here......is the term "pro" is a very subjective term. Just who is a "pro" is going to vary greatly between the individual tastes of those who apply the term. I know what I like, and admire.....and tend to sometimes dismiss, or ignore the efforts of those whom someone else might have great admiration for. There are those who have name recognition within the turning community.....whom I feel are mediocre turners, and there are those who are complete unknowns who I have a lot of respect for. For some, the complete opposite is also true. This is, of course, all just my own personal opinion.

This.....within the scope of my own personal feelings that a "pro turner" is highly competent at those skills while the wood is turning on the lathe.....and I have not much consideration of embellishment applied off the lathe.

-----odie-----
 
Since there isn't an apprentiship program offered in turning, at least here in the US we all learn from each other. When I was in photography I would read about all these guys claiming they studied under such and such. I used to joke that I also studied under them, as long as they wrote an article in a magazine. I guess the same is true in wood turning although we are lucky enough to be able to go to demos and symposiums and at least learn from the Pro's and non pro's. As far as who I consider a pro. Many names come to mind. John Jordan, Clay Foster, Mike Mahoney, Glen Lucas, Stewart Batty, Lyle Jamieson, Chris Ramsey, Jimmy Clewes, Nick Cook, Johannes Michelson, and many more who's names are escaping me due to my old age and early morning. I am going to a show this week called Turnabout-women in turning. There are lots of names on there that I would consider professional and probably many that really are professional that I just haven't heard enough about. Betty Scarpino, Dixie Biggs, Donna Bannefield, Hayley Smith, Louis Hibbert. Those are names that pop up often in the turning world. If you happen to be in Tennessee over the next month stop in to the Appalachian Center for Crafts and visit the show. I think it's up until the 15th. If you do stop in give me a call. I'm only an hour from there, I'll try and get free and hang out with you.
 

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There are those who have name recognition within the turning community.....whom I feel are mediocre turners,

There is variability in how effectively known turners shape and surface wood.
As each of us watch known turners demonstrate in person or in videos we form opinions about what they do well and maybe about what the don’t do so well.

These perceptions are through a lens of our own experience and accomplishments.
When we are starting out everyone looks terrific and they all make it look so easy.
As we progress we become less easily impressed.

I would encourage everyone to come to Portland and see first hand how excellent turners work.
The AAW Symposium is the showcase of demonstrators, turned objects, and tools.
Kelly, bring your bowls to the instant gallery, I would like seeing them up close.

Watch Al Stirt, Cindy Drozda, Keith Gotschal, Graeme Priddle.....
See how your perceptions change or get reinforced
 
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There is variability in how effectively known turners shape and surface wood.
As each of us watch known turners demonstrate in person or in videos we form opinions about what they do well and maybe about what the don’t do so well.

These perceptions are through a lens of our own experience and accomplishments.
When we are starting out everyone looks terrific and they all make it look so easy.
As we progress we become less easily impressed.

I would encourage everyone to come to Portland and see first hand how excellent turners work.
The AAW Symposium is the showcase of demonstrators, turned objects, and tools.
Kelly, bring your bowls to the instant gallery, I would like seeing them up close.

The only thing that really counts is the quality of the finished product. How any turner gets there is secondary to that. Demonstrations, videos.....all of that doesn't make much difference, if the finished product is mediocre.

One thing you said, Al.......that rings true, is when you're still a newbie, and struggling to get a refined tool surface, everyone else seems like an accomplished turner. Your whole perspective of just how far refinement can go, changes as your own skills increase.....or, at least that's the way it seems like from my own experiences.

I will not be in Portland.

-----odie-----
 
The only thing that really counts is the quality of the finished product. How any turner gets there is secondary to that. Demonstrations, videos.....all of that doesn't make much difference, if the finished product is mediocre.

One thing you said, Al.......that rings true, is when you're still a newbie, and struggling to get a refined tool surface, everyone else seems like an accomplished turner. Your whole perspective of just how far refinement can go, changes as your own skills increase.....or, at least that's the way it seems like from my own experiences.

I will not be in Portland.

-----odie-----
Too bad you can’t make Portland it is the closest the AAW will be to you in a while.
Maybe something will change.
Utah is another possibility for you.

If you could possibly come for the day the Instant gallery is absolutely overwhelming.

I don’t understand your statement about demos. You see objects being made before your eyes. The only thing left out is sanding to keep down the dust for the audience. I do agree that poorly turned objects can be made into nicely finished ones but the people who make them don’t often demonstrate.
 
Too bad you can’t make Portland it is the closest the AAW will be to you in a while.
Maybe something will change.
Utah is another possibility for you.

If you could possibly come for the day the Instant gallery is absolutely overwhelming.

I don’t understand your statement about demos. You see objects being made before your eyes. The only thing left out is sanding to keep down the dust for the audience. I do agree that poorly turned objects can be made into nicely finished ones but the people who make them don’t often demonstrate.

Just to acknowledge that I've read your post, Al

Have a good day, all.....

-----odie-----
 
Well I knew this would be an active forum subject and I haven't been disappointed. This is no doubt like herding cats because each has their own ideas about what a pro is and what criteria they believe makes someone a pro. I personally couldn't care less but it is interesting to find out what others think. I guess I would hope my work is of a quality that would be considered professional but other than that it really doesn't matter to me personally. I have really enjoyed reading each woodturner as they have added their opinions and criteria to the subject.
 
The reason I asked who people consider a pro in woodturning is because some tend to raise the bar too high, and as Al said, that consideration vary by skill level.

The term professional is a business term for the most part, so you have to consider the business term. If someone sells one bowl a month but makes his money selling tools, is he a professional turner? I can see production turners labeled professional turners but not someone who sells tools.

I look at it from the art side. If you have the right tool control and skill to manipulate the wood the way you want, then you are an artist. People may not get your style, may hate it, etc. but you are an artist. And I equate professional turner to an artist turner.

If Ellsworth or Liam, and others did not make majority of their income from turning related work, would they not still be considered artists or professionals?
 
I think that it is a mistake to equate being a professional woodturner and being an artist. A professional woodturner might be a production turner who cranks out architectural turnings or ordinary objects for shops in tourist destinations. A person who turns as a hobby might be an artist. Sometimes being both an artist and a professional turner intersect, but perhaps more often they don't.

Sometimes questions don't have universally accepted answers. I suspect that the question of what is a professional woodturner is a good example. There are opinions and we will just have to be satisfied with that. Even more nebulous are questions that revolve around the meaning of art. My opinion is that you can't force art by simply ticking off certain boxes such as having bark inclusions or being technically well executed or embellishing a piece. I see myself as a maker. If somebody likes what I make then that's nice. If I were ever accused of being an artist, I'm confident that the jury would let me off scot-free. :D
 
Does he make a living at it. So does a hack turner in a chair factory. But even that hack turner, could probably teach me some things.

If it were just the finished product, a guy with a computer and cnc machine could be Michael Angelo.

Artistry seems to me to be a combination of possessing the technical knowledge to operate the tools, having the scientific knowledge of the medium, the imagination to conceive the desired result and the persistent skill to pull it off.
 
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