What have we learned?

[Robert Craig]

As a new member, in another country [UK], but one who has been turning for about 25 years, I've been very interested in people's responses to the question about how long you have been turning. A related topic, and forgive me if it has been raised before, is what you have learned along the way. I don't mean the specific techniques of turning a bowl, a box or whatever, but any general pieces of advice you can give to other people about this craft.

Confining myself to three I would say mine are:-
(1) Buy the best quality tools and equipment you can. Inferior kit is generally a disappointment and frustration and turns out to be poor value as your skills develop, and you realise you should have bought a quality item not the cheap item which seemed the right thing for a beginner. My first lathe, my first bandsaw, my first set of tools, were all false economies and had to be discarded along the way.
(2) Conversely, we all buy too many tools (or at least that applies to me and all the turners I know). It's a mistake to think that buying a new tool, especially one with the "signature" of a great turner, will transform your work. We need to practise more (and more) with the equipment we have got already. Those old guys in the woods a hundred years ago used to produce quality work, day after day with no more than a gouge, a skew chisel and a parting tool, and probably running a foot driven lathe.
(3) I must be brave and try to extend my skills, and the kind of work I produce, even if I have some failures along the way. There is so much I can learn from other turners. I try to go on a course or to a seminar every year, to see what other people are doing and to learn from them.

I'd love to hear the acquired woodturning wisdom of other people.

Robert Craig

 

[john lucas]

Good question Robert.
#1 Don't say, I could do that if I had this tool. How many times have you heard that or even said that. I now have a rediculous number of tools however when I look back over the years I turned things that were just as difficult back then. The reason. I wanted to turn it so I figured out a way. I think the desire to turn something is more important than how or with what tools. The final results are all that matters.
#2 learn to sharpen. When I first bought my Shopsmith 30 years ago I read the book on how to use the machine and all the tools but I must have skipped the lathe sharpening section or it didn't exist. I turned a lot of things without ever sharpening a tool. I say turned, but scraped and mauled into submission was probably the better word.
When I finally did buy a grinder it had a grey wheel and bounced around the room when it was on. Come to think of it so did my lathe. Kept me fit chasing these things. I would sharpen my gouge (which had more facets than any diamond I've ever seen) and I would take a few cuts and didn't know whether it was my lack of skill or a dull tool. I would go back to the grinder and try again. I used up that tool pretty quickly but it did help me learn to sharpen.
Anyway I eventually bought a better grinder, learned to balance and true up the wheels and guess what, my sharpening got better. Then I got a sharpening jig and practiced with it. My tools are now very sharp and I remove almost no metal so my tools last longer. That allows me to justify buying high end tools.
#3Learn about wood. There is a lot of info out there. You have to search it out. Read about wood movement and anything you can get on drying wood. Then do as John Jordan suggests. Whenever you get a new species of wood turn something from it. Small is fine. Measure the wood in the 3 directions it moves from green to dry and now you will know what it does. You can predict how wood will move around knots, and around the pith and you can predict what shape the piece will move into as it drys. You do get fooled every now and then, that's wood.
#4 OK I know I couldn't quit. This is probably the most important. turn, Turn, Turn. The more you turn the more all of the above come together. You start to see where you want to go with your work and most of all you just have more fun.
#5 Damn I can't shut up. The best thing I've learned from woodturning is how wonderful everyone is. I try to go by the pass it forward motto. When ever someone does something for me I try to do something for someone else. Apparently a lot of woodturners are the same. Thanks to all the ladies and men who have shared this wonderful world with me.

 

[Ron Sardo]

1) Don't worry about making mistakes, sometimes you learn more from your mistakes than your successes.

2) Don't worry about making every piece you turn a masterpiece. Sometimes function is more important than form.

3) Have fun

4) Be safe

 

[Mark Warden]

Use relief cuts with parting tools

My closest call so far was when I was trying to part a lid off an 9" bowl I was pretty deep into the blank and the chisel pulled out of the handle went around and got flung up into a plywood shelf above my lathe and stuck in a good half inch

 

[Richard Baker]

Most of us strive to improve the quality of our work, and can often identify a specific shortcoming (in tool usage, finish work, or whatever). Sometimes the answer is simply to try harder. That's it. Try harder. You must have the will to do the (additional) work necessary to achieve a better result.

 

[George Guadiane]

1. Change One Thing: I have looked at a lot of work by other turners of all ages, skill levels and amount of time turning. Almost without exception, I have found something that inspires me. My mission is to take what I have seen, heard, experienced and change something about it so that I can claim it as my own (variation), kind of like jazz. This thought came to me: The student who does not exceed the master, in at least some way is no more than a mimic.

2. Be Safe: Most of what we risk as humans when working with powerful machines does not grow back... Protect it. A face shield AFTER the eye is damaged or lost is too little too late.

3. Have Fun: Whatever that means to you. Do this (and all things possible) for your personal satisfaction. I don't mean to the detriment of others, but unless your joy comes from praise, don't turn for others either... If you do what you love, there will be others who will share your vision.

AND, all of the other stuff posted so far is of equal or greater value!

 

[Steven Antonucci]

I've learned that you can do a lot with a little (if you have a lot)

1.) The equipment you use makes things easier, not possible.

2.) Sharper is better than not sharper.

3.) A lot of sanding on a bad form makes it look worse. You can always sand a good form (once you know it needs it), but a bad form is forever.

4.) Reading is a great shop tool. So is practice.

5.) if you never push yourself, no one else will either.

6.) Some days, I just want to make shavings.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'm not addicted to woodturning because I know that I can quit whenever I want -- it's just that I do not want to quit at this time -- maybe later. And, turning in the wee hours of the morning is not "proof" that I am addicted to turning. I would describe myself as a casual woodturner. So, the most important thing that I have learned is to balance my life and not let my hobby become an obsessive all-consuming pursuit of instant gratification. In order to get things in balance, I am currently making up for the deficit in woodturning that occurred during the first sixty years of my life.

Moderation in all things.

 

[Charles Henderson]

I'm not addicted to woodturning because I know that I can quit whenever I want -- it's just that I do not want to quit at this time -- maybe later. And, turning in the wee hours of the morning is not "proof" that I am addicted to turning. I would describe myself as a casual woodturner. So, the most important thing that I have learned is to balance my life and not let my hobby become an obsessive all-consuming pursuit of instant gratification. In order to get things in balance, I am currently making up for the deficit in woodturning that occurred during the first sixty years of my life.

Moderation in all things.

^ Priceless 😀

 

[Don O. Jr.]

Great Posts So Far

I won't really add but agree and summarize.

Good tools and equipment are a good investment and make turning enjoyable and safe. But they must be used and used properly to be effective. Know your equipment. Make sure what is supposed to be tight is tight and what is supposed to be free is free. Maintain your equipment and tools. Use your safety tools and protect yourself. Use your head too.

Practice!

Learn to sharpen well and efficiently. Sharp tools make turning enjoyable and safer.

Practice !

Learn to sand effectively and efficiently. Protect your lungs.

Practice !

Learn about finishes and finishing. Patience is important. A high quality finish starts at the sanding stage and is neither fast or easy. Protect yourself from the chemicals.

Practice !

Watch, read, study, ask questions. Go to as many demos or classes as possible. Be observant and take notes and pictures. More knowledge makes turning enjoyable and safe.

Practice !

Have fun-this is supposed to be relaxing and enjoyable. It's not brain surgery. It's just wood, it really does grow on trees. And as John Jordan says-"Life's too short to turn crappy wood". Get out there and contact some tree services or your city or town road crews. Make them something nice in return. Solid wood is more enjoyable and safer (in the early days of the learning process at least).

Practice !

Share what you know. Woodturners are the most generous and giving craftspeople/artists anywhere. No one has secrets-everyone shares. The passion that drives us also drives us to give back what others have given us.

Practice !

 

[Odie]

1) There is no rule that can't be broken.

2) If you think you can't, then you won't.

3) Impossible is a relative term.

4) Advice is plentiful, but you are your best teacher.

5) Do it your way, first!

6) The "herd mentality" is for the herd.

7) Some of the old guys, knew a thing or two!

8) Gadgets and widgets do not replace skill and creative thinking.

9) If everyone else is doing it, it's no fun anymore!

10) Great wood is half the equation.

11) There is no substitute for sharp tools.

.....among others! 😀

ooc

 

[Odie]

Share what you know. Woodturners are the most generous and giving craftspeople/artists anywhere. No one has secrets-everyone shares. The passion that drives us also drives us to give back what others have given us.

I hate to tell you this, Don........but, some turners have secrets!

Those who do have trade secrets, are probably not going to admit to it......life among the herd is much easier that way!

I don't believe there is a single experienced turner that isn't willing to help fellow turners out, though.

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

From the comments elsewhere on this clip, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE turners appear to have forgotten a lot. They think, like teenagers, that the world began with them.

 

[Odie]

From the comments elsewhere on this clip, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_Ph6nZfGE turners appear to have forgotten a lot. They think, like teenagers, that the world began with them.

A lot of truth in that statement, MM......😉

......and, thanks for turning us on to one of the most interesting lathe video (film) clips from Germany 1926, that I've ever seen!





-----> See my comment # 7) above.......😀 <-----





film clip comments:

Hard to say what kind of wood that was, but very plain grain. At first, I thought the wood was wet......but, the dust from sanding convinced me I was wrong.....very dry. Had to be "seasoned" for quite awhile for it to be that dry in a block form.

It looked like his gouge was more in line with what we would call a "spindle gouge", and was used without bevel rubbing, but not in all cases. I enjoyed very much seeing how he used it.....both directions!

That little bent hook tool was interesting, too! Did I see a little "catch" there? Pretty much used only on the inside of the bowl, on the bottom.

What would you say the rpm of his wet grinding wheel was? Faster than my wet stone, but not nearly as fast as the 1825rpm..... It would not be so easy to sharpen his way, with the harder steels we use today. I would imagine he is using plain ol' carbon steel, which would tend to sharpen much more easily.

ooc

 

[john lucas]

Odie I believe he was rubbing the bevel with the spindle gouge. When I watched him sharpen it you will notice he has a convex grind. He didn't rub the bevel on the skew however. I like his hook tool.

 

[Odie]

Odie I believe he was rubbing the bevel with the spindle gouge. When I watched him sharpen it you will notice he has a convex grind. He didn't rub the bevel on the skew however. I like his hook tool.

Howdy John......


Better check again......bevel not rubbing in several places.

If we are thinking similarly, the edge will have to be rocked in order to get a convex grind.....didn't see that. What I did see is him presenting the edge to the stone very much similarly to a "hollow grind" on a knife blade, or "concave".....the tool being presented to the stone parallel to the direction of rotation and the entire bevel being ground without rocking, but rotating it along the axis of the entire tool......or the same as most of us still do it today.



ooc

edit: I have edited my previous post for further clarification on this.

 

[Odie]

Additional comment about film clip:

It's hard to judge just how fine the surface quality is on his bowl, but I'd be willing to bet he's not getting the kind of smooth, refined surface we are used to seeing these days. Undoubtedly, he's getting a good surface quality with his tools, but sanding is very rudimentary. This is one area where sanding tools and techniques have definitely improved over time.

I'd like to have his bowl in my hands......I could tell much better how good a surface he's getting.....but, I'm grateful that this film has survived the years.....even if we can't see as detailed as we'd like to.

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

Well, the wood is beech, which is obvious from the "selection" pictures showing bark. Very cooperative wood to cut, devil to dry, at least its American cousin.

The tools are certainly forged carbon steel, and the grind on the gouges is more of a spindle grind, if we can believe Milton and Wohlers http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/15460 , Frank Pain and my experience. The fingernail allows a down and in, which is a natural for spindles, but not the best cut for finishing inside the bowl, which is why he draw scrapes to fair the curve, I imagine. I keep one set of mine with extremely large radius around the nose, so I can cut below the centerline moving up to center. His profile does plunge and roll from outside in similar to a modern cylindrical gouge with a fingernail grind. Perhaps that's why he uses it - speed of excavation.

The bevel is most certainly rubbing, it's one more example of compartmental thinking that people think of it as only perpendicular to the edge, rather than along it. With him it's the grind that provides the skew, with me it's the angle of the handle. He does use a scraper and, I believe, his gouge as a draw scraper as well.

I am puzzled by the hook tool. Almost looks like a coring profile, rather than the more familiar ones seen here. http://www.robin-wood.co.uk/pole-lathe.htm Cutting with the edge up, uphill and up grain, it's a wonder he didn't bust his arm! He was doing a cut which the large radius on the nose of the forged gouge allows as a near shear scrape, but with his profiles it would be a narrow one.

 

[Curt Fuller]

I would have to agree with the three pieces of advice Robert Craig began this thread with. A fourth would be to study art, the art of form, proportion, shape, etc. As turners we tend to concentrate heavily on the technical skills of turning but to reach our full potential we also need to understand the art of turning, what makes something appealing to the eye. Whenever you see a turning that really grabs your attention it's usually because the turner was also an artist.

 

[Odie]

The bevel is most certainly rubbing, it's one more example of compartmental thinking that people think of it as only perpendicular to the edge, rather than along it.

Howdy again MM.......

I have a feeling you and I have a difference in conceptual definitions. To my way of seeing it, to present the tool straight into the wood, like the German fellow is doing, it would be an impossibility for the bevel to be rubbing in any fashion that would provide stability. Either the bevel is rubbing, or it isn't.....and the latter appears to be the case, based on my own observations in the video, as well as results produced by my own hands.

However, I do believe I have an understanding of your meaning.....it's just that the criteria we each use to define the term "bevel rubbing" seems not to be the same.

It would be wise to point out that a rubbing bevel isn't the only thing that determines stability.......there is technique.....and that German fellow certainly seems to have a well practiced technique. His technique is similar, although not identical to one I use myself.......

I am adding a drawing of what I consider bevel rubbing, and not rubbing. As I see things, the German fellow is using his spindle gouge like that on the right, in my illustration.

ooc

 

[Odie]

Odie I believe he was rubbing the bevel with the spindle gouge. When I watched him sharpen it you will notice he has a convex grind. He didn't rub the bevel on the skew however. I like his hook tool.

Hi John......

While I'm at the drawing board, I thought I'd add a drawing explaining how I understand convex vs concave grinds to be, as applied to a lathe gouge.

As with MM, it's possible that we, too, are not using the same definitions to describe what we mean in our correspondence to each other..........

In the video, the German fellow is grinding his spindle gouge to a concave configuration......that is, as I understand the term to mean.......

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

I am adding a drawing of what I consider bevel rubbing, and not rubbing. As I see things, the German fellow is using his spindle gouge like that on the right, in my illustration.

ooc

Perpendicular. That limits you too much. Now the clearance angle must always be zero, which means a lot of drag and pushing the handle at weird angles.

You can increase your clearance angle and increase the length of edge which the wood must traverse on its way to the floor by skewing. This mimics a lower sharpness angle in the way it cuts the wood, and with a bit of lean, you can take advantage of the longer length of edge and progressively deepen the cut.

Look at the broad, continuously deepening cut here. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Peeling-Outside.jpg Also note that the "lift" into the end grain, where those nasty tears occur, is so inconsequential that it merely fuzzes the edge. The shape of the shaving is straight one side, feathered on the other where the tool exits.

 

[Odie]

Perpendicular. That limits you too much. Now the clearance angle must always be zero, which means a lot of drag and pushing the handle at weird angles.

You can increase your clearance angle and increase the length of edge which the wood must traverse on its way to the floor by skewing. This mimics a lower sharpness angle in the way it cuts the wood, and with a bit of lean, you can take advantage of the longer length of edge and progressively deepen the cut.

Look at the broad, continuously deepening cut here. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Peeling-Outside.jpg Also note that the "lift" into the end grain, where those nasty tears occur, is so inconsequential that it merely fuzzes the edge. The shape of the shaving is straight one side, feathered on the other where the tool exits.

Hi MM.......

You're drifting off point a little here, Michael. This whole discussion was generated by your statement that the bevel of the gouge, in the 1926 German video, was rubbing.....not the quality of cut he was getting.

If you are maintaining that the German turner's gouge bevel was rubbing at all times, then I think this is something we are just going to have differences in basic conceptual understanding. That's perfectly OK with me........you are someone with obvious "stick time" at the lathe, and that isn't in question.

However, your statement about the importance of "Perpendicular" is pretty meaningless to the point. In my illustration, the example on the right is close to being perpendicular to the wood, but the tool could be angled quite a bit, and the bevel still not rubbing. I could draw another picture, but I think most everyone who reads this thread will know it is so. As mentioned previously, either the bevel is in contact with the wood......or, it isn't.

One other consideration is the angle of tool presentation could vary quite a bit, and still have the bevel rubbing.......it would all depend on the angle in which it's ground. (.....and, I suppose, the diameter of the wood will be a consideration in that respect, as well.)

G'day to you, MM.......😀

OOC

(I am re-posting the drawing, so that you, or anyone else who might be following our discussion, can refer to it without going to a previous page.)

 

[MichaelMouse]

Think on this one, Odie.

Your plane shaves and is supported along the edge without much behind it in contact at all. Now skew it to the direction of travel, and enjoy the benefits of a lower sharpness angle. Or switch from your bench to your low-angle block to gain understanding. With a high sharpness angle you break the wood over endgrain. With a low one you can get an unbroken shaving. Makes a wonderful surface when you do it on the lathe. You can hear and see the end grain being shaved by a skewed, leaning gouge in this clip. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=Gouge101.flv Not a bad surface, either.

Which way to the shavings curl, and why? Once you understand that, you've got it.

Of course, when the work is moving rather than the tool, pulling the same spot past it many times before you clear it, it's not a one-time thing. Where you've cut helps support and guide the tool to where you're going before you get there.

Verstehen?

 

[Odie]

Think on this one, Odie.

Your plane shaves and is supported along the edge without much behind it in contact at all. Now skew it to the direction of travel, and enjoy the benefits of a lower sharpness angle. Or switch from your bench to your low-angle block to gain understanding. With a high sharpness angle you break the wood over endgrain. With a low one you can get an unbroken shaving. Makes a wonderful surface when you do it on the lathe. You can hear and see the end grain being shaved by a skewed, leaning gouge in this clip. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=Gouge101.flv Not a bad surface, either.

Which way to the shavings curl, and why? Once you understand that, you've got it.

Of course, when the work is moving rather than the tool, pulling the same spot past it many times before you clear it, it's not a one-time thing. Where you've cut helps support and guide the tool to where you're going before you get there.

Verstehen?

Verstehen?

Yep, I believe I do, MM........😀

Thanks for your reply.

ooc

 

[Joe Greiner]

Odie, there's about 33 degrees (yes, I measured it) between your Bevel rubbing and Bevel not rubbing. Anything in that region would still be Bevel not rubbing. And the hollow grind shown is, as we say, "distorted for clarity" of course.😉

As to angle of attack, I've found the closer to slicing, the better the surface. Try it with a hand chisel on end grain for a horrible example; straight across = a mess; slicing or paring = baby-face smooth. Also works for shaving facial hair, if not taken to extremes.

 

[Odie]

Odie, there's about 33 degrees (yes, I measured it) between your Bevel rubbing and Bevel not rubbing. Anything in that region would still be Bevel not rubbing. And the hollow grind shown is, as we say, "distorted for clarity" of course.😉

As to angle of attack, I've found the closer to slicing, the better the surface. Try it with a hand chisel on end grain for a horrible example; straight across = a mess; slicing or paring = baby-face smooth. Also works for shaving facial hair, if not taken to extremes.

Mornin' Joe.....

Yes, you are correct......any angle between those shown in the two examples is "bevel not rubbing". However, it wouldn't matter what the degrees of angle it is at all......either the bevel is rubbing, or it isn't, and that was the point!

.......and yes, the drawing of the hollow grind is drawn with a tight radius for the explicit purpose of visual clarity.

Bottom line.....they are two dimensional drawings drawn by me for the express purpose of demonstrating one particular point.....this they do well.


ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

Too hot and humid for this old bird to split wood, so I checked for an old demo from January 2006 which shows the business of referencing along the bevel rather than necessarily across it.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Rub-Demo.jpg

Clockwise from UL. you can see me trying to shoot with one hand and match the gouge to its image in the wood. Not too successful, but the dust either side of the 1/4" of bevel rub will match just fine if you mentally place the nose of the gouge closer to the toolrest (~15 degrees down). The center area is swept clean by the shaving, while both the entry and exit points are dusted by breaking thin endgrain. .

A bit of a look inside, where I'm just starting the cut. Bevel is nearly vertical, but the top will be skewed back to slide under the shaving as I get past the rim of the bowl. You can see a few "steps" past the demo point. This picture is pretty much what the traditional bevel rubbers think of. One point of tangency possible between disparate diameters, or a line nearly perpendicular to the edge if you connect all points. Now as you skew the gouge like this \ you contact across a broader area of the edge, make a pretty good slicing shaving as Joe and I both prefer, and the surface that can leave. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Forged-in-Use.jpg Is one of my favorite shots to illustrate the peel. Even has the twisting shaving shown as it is generated.

The closeup of the two broad areas outside gives an idea of what's happening. It's "that place" where you start to pick up and tear out, but the tearout is limited to the area where a traditional bevel rubber would find it. The skew and tilt takes a thinner and thinner shaving, feathering out until the surface shows not tears, but ridges. If you like to speed up your turnings, which I don't, or "ride" the bevel, you'd get a burnished surface, which was really an illusion, subject to looking exactly like this after a water wipe.

You can see the wide arcs in the last picture. They're narrower sweep than the gouge itself because they're a combination of across and forward motion. The across is supporting the tool along the bevel, the forward, perpendicular to the angle of travel.

 

[Gretch Flo]

hot, humid

Too hot and humid for this old bird to split wood,

Michael-I didn't let that bother me!!!!! Cut and split firewood and some woodworking wood too, of course, in humid 90 degree+ weather yesterday, after turning in the am.Broken up with bird watching, deer watching (got triplets and twins) coming for apple drops. Garden too wet to work in. Got 4" of rain in the last 36 hours. Weird summer, my tomatoes grown from seed, drown and got killed with 5" of rain in 36 hours in June and had to replant with nursery plants. Hope they don't die too, Gretch