WATCO Danish Oil

[Emiliano Achaval]

WATCO not watch
I bought a few gallons of Danish oil a few years ago, to finish some Norfolk Island Pine bowls, Ron Kent style. Hate it to turn something so wet, you had to wear a raincoat, and made a mess of everything. So, I gave up on that. Now I found a lost gallon in my shop. I want to use it on my Hawaiian Koa bowls. Anybody has any recommendations on how to use it? Should I buff? How many applications? How long should I wait between applications? Any links to an article somewhere? Could not find anything on the archives of the AAW. Thank you in advance for the help!! Aloha from sunny Maui
Sorry the autocorrect changed Watco to watch...

 

[Odie]

I like a very natural look in wood, so use Watco natural Danish oil on all my bowls. I usually only apply one coat and sparingly......but, if the wood soaks it up fast, sometimes a second coat is in order. I've never seen much difference in subsequent applications done within minutes, or days......all depends on how well the wood absorbs it.....use your own judgement. Normally the DO is applied while the bowl is still on the lathe, and sometimes I use 0000 steel wool while applying wet, at very slow speed. Any excess is taken off with a cotton cloth before it dries. If you apply and don't take off the excess, it will "puddle" and leave a shiny spot that will have to be removed with dry steel wool.

It's been awhile since I turned a Koa bowl, but have turned a few in the past. Beautiful wood. I don't recall any special treatment over my normal application procedures for DO.

Yes, buff and wax.....I'm a believer in the Beale buffing system.

ko

 

[Odie]

Good morning....

Information added to the above post:

The only exception to the above, is it's not acceptable (in my opinion), to use the Beale buffing system for bowls intended to be used as a salad bowl. The reason for this is not because the Carnauba wax isn't ok (it is), but the buffing compounds EEE, and WD, will leave a residue that isn't compatible for this purpose.

Always use either cotton cloth, or the 0000 steel wool while applying the DO.....never paper towels. If you do, then after the DO dries, you'll be dealing with some pesky little fine bits of paper that get stuck into pores, abrupt edges, and detail grooves. For some time, I couldn't figure out why I was getting these little tiny hairlike paper bits after using paper towels.....until I started using cotton cloth exclusively.....then it dawned on me.....duh, don't use paper towels! With the 0000 steel wool, there is an occasional strand of the wool that is stuck in these same areas.......Not as bad as using paper towels, but the solution is the same.....use an old toothbrush to take them out. The reason to use the steel wool wet, is to take out some very fine 600gt sanding marks that don't show up after sanding, but do show up AFTER the DO dries.

ko

 

[John Torchick]

Something that is lint-free is the plain ol" coffee filter. I use them for wiping down fishing rod blanks with DNA before assembly. And..........they are cheap!

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Big thank you from Maui

Thank you for taking the time to respond. BIG help. Lots of useful information!! Guess I won't be giving away the gallon of the Watco oil after all! Happy new year. Aloha.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I agree with most of what Kelly gave you but there are 2 areas I will vary from. I use 4-6 coats and leave on for 15 minutes and then wipe off. I do not do this on the lathe and usually not necessary to sand or use steel wool between coats. And yes the buff and wax does wonders.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Watco

It is great to see that lots of woodturners use Danish Oil! I will take all the advice and make my own finishing.... Thank you for your help. Aloha

 

[John Terefenko]

It is great to see that lots of woodturners use Danish Oil! I will take all the advice and make my own finishing.... Thank you for your help. Aloha

Not only turners but I also am a scroll sawer and use Watco Danish oil for just about all my scrollsawn projects. Some times I only use one coat and sometimes 2. It has a beautiful low sheen look and feel to it. I love the stuff. Was disappointed when they discontinued many years ago but it was brought back soon after that. The formula was not the same but close enough.

 

[BobCoates]

Information from Watco about danish oil

I have used Watco oil on most of my furniture projects in the past and was considering using it on bowls. I contacted Watco about its use and got this reply from them

"Thank you for contacting Rust-Oleum Product Support.

Our Watco Danish Oil is completely non toxic and safe for children's toys, once it is fully cured. However, this product is not approved to be used on items that will come in contact with food. We hope this information has been helpful. If you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Since the products are not FDA approved, they are recommended to be near any type of food. However, I would assume fruit would be okay in the bowl, if you were going to peel or wash it, prior to eating it."

"The only product that we have that is compliant to use on food prep or storage pieces would be our Watco Butcher Block Oil. It can be safely used for butcher blocks, cutting boards, salad bowls and other wooden items that require a food safe finish. More information can be found at the following link. http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/watco/butcher-block-oil-and-finish/ . "

 

[Odie]

I have used Watco oil on most of my furniture projects in the past and was considering using it on bowls. I contacted Watco about its use and got this reply from them

"Thank you for contacting Rust-Oleum Product Support.

Our Watco Danish Oil is completely non toxic and safe for children's toys, once it is fully cured. However, this product is not approved to be used on items that will come in contact with food. We hope this information has been helpful. If you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Since the products are not FDA approved, they are recommended to be near any type of food. However, I would assume fruit would be okay in the bowl, if you were going to peel or wash it, prior to eating it."

"The only product that we have that is compliant to use on food prep or storage pieces would be our Watco Butcher Block Oil. It can be safely used for butcher blocks, cutting boards, salad bowls and other wooden items that require a food safe finish. More information can be found at the following link. http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/watco/butcher-block-oil-and-finish/ . "

Thank you for this information. I have put some of the Watco butcher block oil and finish on my list of things to get.......
ko

 

[bonsaipeter]

The Trick To Using Watco Danish Oil

I've been asked many times how long it takes me to make a bowl to which my stock answer is, "two hours of turning and two weeks of finishing." Obviously this does not take into account the several months of drying between roughing out the green blank and finish turning the bowl. I happen to like the finish I get with the Watco Natural Danish Oil because of the richness and patina of an oil finish and also I can readily control the degree of "sheen" using this product. Generally I prefer a low sheen finish, but on occasion I want a higher sheen on a particular piece. To this end 1 to 2 coats of the Danish Oil yields a low sheen finish, additional coats add sheen, and for a high sheen several coats plus wax and buffing really brings up the sheen.

I have found that the trick with using Watco Danish Oil is to let it cure completely between coats. This may take several days (3 - 7) between the first coat and subsequent coats. Once the initial coating is fully cured subsequent coats cure much faster, 1 -2 days. The more you coat, the more of a surface build up you get which produces the sheen. After applying a generous coating of the Danish Oil I wait about 30 minutes and then wipe off the excess and gently buff with a paper towel (I don't seem to be plagued by small particles of paper as Odie described). The key takeaway here is to allow enough time between coats for the Danish Oil to cure completely after each coat!

Peter Toch

 

[Gretch Flo]

"Thank you for contacting Rust-Oleum Product Support.

Our Watco Danish Oil is completely non toxic and safe for children's toys, once it is fully cured. However, this product is not approved to be used on items that will come in contact with food. We hope this information has been helpful. If you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Since the products are not FDA approved, they are recommended to be near any type of food. However, I would assume fruit would be okay in the bowl, if you were going to peel or wash it, prior to eating it."

"The only product that we have that is compliant to use on food prep or storage pieces would be our Watco Butcher Block Oil. It can be safely used for butcher blocks, cutting boards, salad bowls and other wooden items that require a food safe finish. More information can be found at the following link. http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/watco/butcher-block-oil-and-finish/ . "

So what about what we've all learned about a product being food safe once cured and all odor gone ???Because it doesn't have FDA approval doesn't mean it is unsafe-maybe just not tested. Has anyone heard of people getting sick from eating out of a wooden bowl that had finish applied?? (not talking about allergies). Interesting comment from cabin flight crew yesterday from Jamaica (son's wedding), asking people to not eat peanuts because there was an allergic person on board. Not that is really being sensitive, to have a reaction from someone 10+ feet away away!!! Gretch

 

[Wells Jacobson]

food safe?

It confuses me that Watco DO when cured is safe for kids toys and not for salad bowls. Kids chew on toys and I only eat out of salad bowls. Is the Watco advisory a result of Gov. regulation or is there a reason to actually avoid DO on salad bowls?

 

[Odie]

So what about what we've all learned about a product being food safe once cured and all odor gone ???Because it doesn't have FDA approval doesn't mean it is unsafe-maybe just not tested. Has anyone heard of people getting sick from eating out of a wooden bowl that had finish applied?? (not talking about allergies). Interesting comment from cabin flight crew yesterday from Jamaica (son's wedding), asking people to not eat peanuts because there was an allergic person on board. Not that is really being sensitive, to have a reaction from someone 10+ feet away away!!! Gretch

My opinion is that Gretch is onto the truth here......not tested by the FDA, or maybe can't pass because it is toxic until cured......don't know. I also don't know, but suspect the agency responsible for approving for toys, may not be the same as that which can approve for food use.....?

It confuses me that Watco DO when cured is safe for kids toys and not for salad bowls. Kids chew on toys and I only eat out of salad bowls. Is the Watco advisory a result of Gov. regulation or is there a reason to actually avoid DO on salad bowls?

Kids chewing on the toys...? If it's safe for that, then it ought to be safe for a salad bowl.....or, you would think so, anyway.

From my perspective, I need to be able to say to my customers that it's approved by the FDA for food use......and, that's the bottom line for me. I know that many here, including myself, have been using DO for salad bowls for decades, and I've not ever heard of any issues from those whom I've had a direct contact with, nor have I ever heard of there being any problem with that from anyone else. Non-toxic, is non-toxic, is non-toxic......was the thinking for all of us who had a concern here.

ko

 

[Odie]

I swung by Lowe's today, and purchased these two products for further testing:

http://www.rustoleum.com/en/product-catalog/consumer-brands/watco/butcher-block-oil-and-finish
http://www.howardproducts.com/prod-butcher-block.php

As far as I can tell, neither of these products are "approved" by the FDA. Government testing may not be a requirement?

The Watco product states: "Easy to apply and maintain, it is non-toxic and safe for food contact when fully dried (meets government standards of 21CFR 175.300." " It also states on the front of the label: "FDA compliant".

The Howard product states: "This product exceeds the requirement set forth in the U.S. FDA regulations for direct and indirect food contact.

There may be a difference between the definitions of "meets", "compliant" and "exceeds" in the above statements.......

The Watco product specifically states it's good for "salad bowls", while the Howard product mentions "wooden bowls and utensils".

I intend to do further testing of both products in the coming months. What I'm interested in is the finish left by both is stable, and dry....as well as nice looking to the eye.

The Watco product comes in a metal paint can, while the Howard product is in a plastic container like that which a shampoo will come in. I think, but don't know for sure, that further government regulations may be at play concerning these containers. The Watco may have some chemicals that determines a requirement for a metal container.

Any further comment is welcomed......

ko

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Food safe

I have always used mineral oil if I know the bowl will be or might be use for food purposes... Has anybody used the Danish oil for a bowl intended for the kitchen? My guess is that it is safe....

 

[Bill Boehme]

It confuses me that Watco DO when cured is safe for kids toys and not for salad bowls. Kids chew on toys and I only eat out of salad bowls. Is the Watco advisory a result of Gov. regulation or is there a reason to actually avoid DO on salad bowls?

To be considered food safe, a finish has to go through a test program that is time consuming and expensive. It made sense for the product that was designed for butcher blocks and similar food contact uses. There is no economic reason to test something as food safe when that is not its intended purpose. Finally, coming into contact with food and a child handling and chewing on a toy are two completely different scenarios. In the first case the safety of products used in the food processing industry is an FDA matter. Safety of toys used by children comes under the purview of the CPSC.

Common sense tells me that a failed film finish on treenware (Watco DO is a mixture of linseed oil and varnish along with thinners) could trap harmful bacteria. It's not much different than the FDA warning that crazing in the ceramic glaze of old dishes can harbor harmful bacteria. On the other hand, children are required to eat a bushel of dirt in the first year.

 

[KellyDunn]

A built up finish on any wood used for food and washed is going to be a mess down the road when cracks open in the finish. BUT, do the watco like any other wiping varnish so to speak and put a bit on. Let it sit a few minutes and wipe dry. I do use paper towels. Bounty. Since I make my own danish oil mix out of gloss poly a bit of BLO and paint thinner I dip my Koa bowls into it and let them drip a few minutes before drying. For me and Koa two dips is plenty. Wipe on and off should be the same. The idea being to put a bit of hard finish into the pore structure. Mineral oil never dries and the bowl looks bad from the 1st use on. With a bit of hard finish in th epores the bowl will look pretty good after many washings. And I do recommend mineral oil if the bowl begins looking tired. But we are talking salad bowls. I do buff my Koa bowls with Tripoli and then put some Ren wax and buff that. The bowl looks great in the gallery and if not used for food use looks great on a shelf. I also recommend the washing use soap. The oils in salad dressing stuff can become rather nasty and sticky over time in a wet climate. So soap and water are a good thing. But I do dry my salad bowl right away after washing. Remember folks. Its all food safe when cured.
Sorry Mr. Maui but I did not write your name down when I hit reply to thread. I am just over the channel from you in Hawi and have been a full time turner since 89. You want to chat finish in our climate? Give me a call. I am in the AAW directory.

 

[Odie]

Update on Watco butcher block finish, and Howard's butcher block conditioner.......

The first photo of the Willow bowl has the Howard's butcher block conditioner over Watco Danish oil natural. This bowl was in progress when we were discussing this subject before. I was hoping the HBBC would dry completely without an oily surface.....and, it does. This is the product that states that it "exceeds the requirement set forth in the U.S. FDA regulations for direct and indirect food contact". Everything looks like this is going to work out ok for sales of salad bowls.

The second and third photos are of an ash salad bowl that is on my lathe right now. This has a coat of the Watco butcher block oil and finish. This is the product that states it's "FDA compliant". I applied this finish last night, and it's completely dry this morning. My thought is it has a little bit more of a shiny look to it, over the Danish oil natural.....but, not by much. I think this bowl might be sale-able as is, without the Howards BBC over the top......any of you have any thoughts about that? Anyway, the Watco BBO&F looks like it's also good to go......

My whole purpose with this is to assure my customers that my salad bowls meet, or exceed USFDA requirements for food contact. These two products will be a better assurance to those who inquire about my bowls. The use of these two products are a better sales tool, specifically because I can now "officially" state that.

I still believe the regular Watco DO is acceptable for food use, but from a businessman's perspective, isn't as good an option.

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

The first photo of the Willow bowl has the Howard's butcher block conditioner over Watco Danish oil natural. This bowl was in progress when we were discussing this subject before. I was hoping the HBBC would dry completely without an oily surface.....and, it does. This is the product that states that it "exceeds the requirement set forth in the U.S. FDA regulations for direct and indirect food contact". Everything looks like this is going to work out ok for sales of salad bowls.

The second and third photos are of an ash salad bowl that is on my lathe right now. This has a coat of the Watco butcher block oil and finish. I applied this finish last night, and it's completely dry this morning. My thought is it has a little bit more of a shiny look to it, over the Danish oil natural.....but, not by much. I think this bowl might be sale-able as is, without the Howards BBC over the top......any of you have any thoughts about that? Anyway, the Watco BBO&F looks like it's also good to go......

My whole purpose in this is to assure my customers that my salad bowls meet, or exceed USFDA requirements for food contact. I still believe the regular Watco DO is acceptable for food use, but these two products will be a better assurance to those who inquire about my bowls. The use of these two products are a better sales tool, specifically because I can now "officially" state that.

ko

In a previous post you asked whether either of the products have been tested to show that they meet FDA food safety requirements. Click here for the Technical Data Sheet for WATCO Butcher Block Finish stating that it meets the requirements. I couldn't find any indication that the Howard Butcher Block Conditioner has been tested although it probably would if mineral oil is considered acceptable for use on butcher blocks. Saying that it "exceeds" FDA requirements is just advertising hyperbole -- a product either meets the requirements or it doesn't. In order to meet requirements it has to exceed minimum threshold requirements. There's not a link to the MSDS on the Howard web site, but Google found it for me: Howard BB Conditioner MSDS. By the way, when you buy HBBC, you are essentially buying mineral oil. The MSDS says that it contains 1 to 10% beeswax and 1 to 10% carnauba wax. The rest is just mineral oil (80 to 98%). Does mineral oil dry? Never. It just continues soaking into the wood until the surface looks dry, but it hasn't really dried. My thought is that you could just wax the surface and save some money ... or make your own.

I imagine that the WATCO DO is food safe, but Rustoleum hasn't gone through the expense of testing it because that isn't its intended purpose. And, it contains some VOCs that take a long time to completely evaporate and that might not be acceptable especially if used to "rejuvinate" a wooden surface in a food processing facility where there isn't time to wait weeks for something to stop smelling before it can be used.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Not sure why you are so concerned when many others sell bowl w/o giving a "food safe Guarantee",but that is beside the point and your thoughts are not mine. This I can say is to be careful what finishes you mix as far as compatibility. In the case of the Howards with mostly mineral oil as Bill said I would not use it in combination with other products.

 

[dbonertz]

I like the way you are thinking, Odie, about your marketing food safe. However any finish including mineral oil can look good for awhile but the true test is with use. Before I would switch to another finish and market it as FDA approved, which it may well be, I would make myself a couple of bowls to use for a month and see how the finishes hold up. You don't need a customer calling you back after only a month and say their bowl looks awful.

 

[Odie]

I like the way you are thinking, Odie, about your marketing food safe. However any finish including mineral oil can look good for awhile but the true test is with use. Before I would switch to another finish and market it as FDA approved, which it may well be, I would make myself a couple of bowls to use for a month and see how the finishes hold up. You don't need a customer calling you back after only a month and say their bowl looks awful.

Thanks, Dale......

Yes, I think that's a good idea, and thanks for suggesting it. I'm working on it. I have a test piece of wood that has a coating of the Watco BB product. I suppose a thorough test would include every species of wood that I could conceivably use for a salad bowl. That wouldn't be feasible, nor definitive, unless I could include any, and every possible circumstance a salad bowl could be subjected to by the end user.....of course, that just isn't possible either. I can get a general idea with my own testing, though. I can make the USFDA references to help make a sale, but I can't guarantee that my bowls will hold up under any possible conditions, or neglect they may be subjected to.

Truth be known, IMO, wood isn't the best material for use as a salad bowl at all. It is traditional, and there are those who want wooden salad bowls......so I'm making them to reach out to a specific market demand, as well as having another way to utilize my creative efforts. IMO, glazed pottery, metal, and plastic are better for this purpose......but, these materials just don't have the kind of aesthetic appeal that wood does. I would guess most (but not all) users of wooden salad bowls generally use them for special occasions, while the "everyday use" bowls are made from other materials.

ko

 

[hockenbery]

For items that might come in contact with food I either us food grade walnut oil or Waterlox.

Below is a strong statement by the manufacturer and not FDA approval.
I realize Waterlox is rating their own product deserves some skepticism.
However they make a cogent argument that the harmful stuff evaporates.


Below is the link to the Waterlox web site and the text you will find there copied below.
https://www.waterlox.com/Support/Guide?id=d794d2f1fb2043f390527801f084e605&q=Food

Food-safe / non-toxic.

Waterlox Original Tung oil finishes are non-toxic and food-safe when dry and fully cured. Special care and attention should be used when applying the finish with regard to spread rate and adequate ventilation.

There are two basic steps to the drying and curing process of a Waterlox Original Tung oil finish:

The first step is the evaporation of the solvent or 'carrier' system. The evaporation of the solvent usually occurs in the first 2 - 4 hours with proper and adequate cross-ventilation techniques.
The second step is the curing of the solids system, which is comprised of the oil and resin. The solids system completes 95 - 98% of it’s cure cycle in 7 days with proper ventilation; full cure, film hardness and chemical resistance properties are achieved in 30 -90 days with continued and adequate ventilation.
The only solvent or 'carrier' portion of the formulation is comprised of mineral spirits (a petroleum distillate), which, as mentioned above, evaporates in order for the finish to dry in the first 2 – 4 hours with continued and adequate ventilation. If finishing a working surface, a minimum of 7 days with continued and adequate ventilation should be waited before using the surface.

 

[BobCoates]

Odie,
I also have been trying butcher block oil finish and found it got very glossy after several coats. What I did and I don't know if it is correct application, but I let it on the wood for x minutes and then wiped it almost dry( very scientific procedure ) and it looked much more like an oil finish that I preferred.
Bob

The first photo of the Willow bowl has the Howard's butcher block conditioner over Watco Danish oil natural. This bowl was in progress when we were discussing this subject before. I was hoping the HBBC would dry completely without an oily surface.....and, it does. This is the product that states that it "exceeds the requirement set forth in the U.S. FDA regulations for direct and indirect food contact". Everything looks like this is going to work out ok for sales of salad bowls.

The second and third photos are of an ash salad bowl that is on my lathe right now. This has a coat of the Watco butcher block oil and finish. This is the product that states it's "FDA compliant". I applied this finish last night, and it's completely dry this morning. My thought is it has a little bit more of a shiny look to it, over the Danish oil natural.....but, not by much. I think this bowl might be sale-able as is, without the Howards BBC over the top......any of you have any thoughts about that? Anyway, the Watco BBO&F looks like it's also good to go......

My whole purpose with this is to assure my customers that my salad bowls meet, or exceed USFDA requirements for food contact. These two products will be a better assurance to those who inquire about my bowls. The use of these two products are a better sales tool, specifically because I can now "officially" state that.

I still believe the regular Watco DO is acceptable for food use, but from a businessman's perspective, isn't as good an option.

ko

 

[Odie]

Odie,
I also have been trying butcher block oil finish and found it got very glossy after several coats. What I did and I don't know if it is correct application, but I let it on the wood for x minutes and then wiped it almost dry( very scientific procedure ) and it looked much more like an oil finish that I preferred.
Bob

Thanks, Bob.......At this point, you know better than I do. I've only done one experimental bowl so far, and the as fate would have it, I did wipe it off almost immediately. Your observation matches mine, as it looks to be a bit "glossy" nonetheless.

Don't know, but I'm betting a quick rub of 0000 steel wool might take that gloss look away.......?

BTW: I rubbed some raspberry salad dressing from my dinner salad into my experimental piece of prepared wood, and it very noticeably stained the untreated side, while the treated side looks to be unaffected by it.......

ko