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Walnut oil, did I screw up?

Sam Fleisher

Sam Fleisher

Joined
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I used walnut oil on a boxelder candy dish and waited 24 hours to buff. Didn't get really good results like I wanted. Did I not wait long enough for the walnut oil or does box elder just not polish as well as mulberry? That was the bowl I did at the same time.
I did learn I'm going to need more lights even though I don't think my scratches are sanding related because they are too random shaped. I think they might be from my finger nails. Just a couple (other than the ones you really have to be looking for) but I was shooting for no scratches. Guess it's not possible.

Is there any fixing the box elder by re polishing at a later date?

IMG_20230401_191029512.jpg

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Thing I like about most oil finishes like Linseed oil, Tung Oil, etc (depending on what kind of walnut oil or danish oil you bought) they are easy to repair/recoat/refinish with the same finish over top.. But in your 2nd photo, yeah that appears to be actual wood damage (fingernails if wood is soft, or just bumping it on lathe bed or bump it with a tool, etc) that you'd have to steam out or sand away (or both) - Could try taking a wet white cotton cloth over the flaw and iron it (if your S.O. won't let you borrow her iron, can usually find a cheap one in working order at goodwill or possibly even a curling iron if the defect is small) - steam can help raise the grain back out and remove dents like that in many woods (Though some woods may have undesirable reactions with minerals in water, or any dyes/chemicals in the cloth used.) and then another coat of finish (after I suppose a light sanding with 600 grit)
 
Brian Gustin said:
Thing I like about most oil finishes like Linseed oil, Tung Oil, etc (depending on what kind of walnut oil or danish oil you bought) they are easy to repair/recoat/refinish with the same finish over top.. But in your 2nd photo, yeah that appears to be actual wood damage (fingernails if wood is soft, or just bumping it on lathe bed or bump it with a tool, etc) that you'd have to steam out or sand away (or both) - Could try taking a wet white cotton cloth over the flaw and iron it (if your S.O. won't let you borrow her iron, can usually find a cheap one in working order at goodwill or possibly even a curling iron if the defect is small) - steam can help raise the grain back out and remove dents like that in many woods (Though some woods may have undesirable reactions with minerals in water, or any dyes/chemicals in the cloth used.) and then another coat of finish (after I suppose a light sanding with 600 grit)
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I have the perfect e-wife, she's on the other side of the world in Australia.

My S.O. these days is my avatar photo.

I used doctors woodshop finishing oil.
 
Rusty Nesmith said:
You need to wait for it to dry. Usually around two weeks. That is how long I wait before I put a finish over it.
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As usual I got impatient. Was wanting the bowl for monday. Will it dry under the carnauba wax?
 
Sam Fleisher said:
I used walnut oil on a boxelder candy dish and waited 24 hours to buff. Didn't get really good results like I wanted. Did I not wait long enough for the walnut oil or does box elder just not polish as well as mulberry? That was the bowl I did at the same time.
I did learn I'm going to need more lights even though I don't think my scratches are sanding related because they are too random shaped. I think they might be from my finger nails. Just a couple (other than the ones you really have to be looking for) but I was shooting for no scratches. Guess it's not possible.

Is there any fixing the box elder by re polishing at a later date?
Click to expand...
I ran some experiments a few years ago using three store bands and Mahoney's walnut. I used paper instead wood in the experiments because it is easy to tell when the oil has cured because the paper becomes crisp. I found that samples stored in the dark had not cured after several weeks. Samples placed in direct sunlight were fully dried afer two to three days. I observed no significant difference in drying times among the various oil types.
 
Great info, Dennis. Thank you. Unfortunately for Sam, if he puts his box elder in the sun, it'll turn the pink to brown faster.

I have no experience with mulberry, but box elder is pretty soft, susceptible to injury, sucks up the finish, and doesn't get as fine a finish as true maple. And the walnut oil needs to 'cure' rather than just 'dry', though when in the process of curing you can buff with a good result is something I don't know.
 
Sam, something you might want to consider before steaming/ironing out the fingernail (or whatever else) blemishes, is to take off the oil/wax finish. I had to do something similar, and was recommended by a omeone here to use Naphtha VM&P to do so (different than regular naphtha). It worked like magic. This will give you the best chance at a restart. Try it out.
 
Michael Anderson said:
Sam, something you might want to consider before steaming/ironing out the fingernail (or whatever else) blemishes, is to take off the oil/wax finish. I had to do something similar, and was recommended by a omeone here to use Naphtha VM&P to do so (different than regular naphtha). It worked like magic. This will give you the best chance at a restart. Try it out.
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I don't think I'll try steaming it's only visible if you know where to look. I have it wet sanded to 1000 grit so I'll just chalk it up to more experience and lesson learned.
It's just disappointing when you try for perfection in a finish (or as best as I can do) and then the unknown variable messes it up.

I have a doctors appointment on monday and it is a gift for the nurses to put on their desk for candy. I'm sure it will see plenty of damage.
 
I use walnut oil on a lot of my pieces and have found that warmth and sunlight really speed up the curing process. I've had it be dry to the touch and not leave a ring from sitting on a piece of printer paper after only 2-3 days if it cures right. In the winter with little sunlight and a cool shop it can take a while before I don't get a film on my fingers. Some woods just don't buff up as nice after oil as others. A little wax and a buffing wheel usually do the trick for me. I've also found that on some woods (poplar & willow mainly) I just don't use it. No matter what I do it takes a LONG time to cure if ever. I use danish oil instead on these. On the small dent in your picture - I wouldn't bother with it. After a short time of being displayed, moved, bumped or used it will certainly get others.
 
Personally, I have never felt the need to buff out any bowl I have made. First time you rinse it off, the buffing is gone. You can put a light bulb under your drying rack, and that can speed up the process a bit, but no real short cuts for drying walnut oil.

robo hippy
 
Dennis J Gooding said:
I ran some experiments a few years ago using three store bands and Mahoney's walnut. I used paper instead wood in the experiments because it is easy to tell when the oil has cured because the paper becomes crisp. I found that samples stored in the dark had not cured after several weeks. Samples placed in direct sunlight were fully dried afer two to three days. I observed no significant difference in drying times among the various oil types.
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I should add that I did not extend the experiment to drying times for indoor lighting. Next task.
 
As others have stared, red flame box elder will fade to brown quickly when exposed to UV rays especially sunlight. Suggest searching Mark Sillay and Parfix 3408 CA glue. This will provide hardened finish that gets absorbed into the wood.

Here‘s a box elder (aka soft ash leaf maple) candy dish that I used Parfix 3408 on. This particular piece had no red flame, but lots of buttress figure I wanted to protect. It’s held up to candy and nuts over several years.8FF2F32F-0B66-4324-B065-D4625E5FA025.jpeg
 
My experience with walnut oil (Mahoneys) is that it takes a while for it to actually cure, as in several months at room temp. I did some testing, placing a drop on a non porous surface, and set it in the house. It took ~ 3 months to actually dry.

I repeated the test in my hot box finish drier - simply a cardboard box with a 400w heater in it. I let the top “breathe” between the flaps. Temp gets up around 100F with the shop ~65F. The drop cured out in ~ 4 days.
 
My wife spilt grapeseed oil on the hardwood floor and the stuff seems impervious - thinking it a candidate for weed-pots, I asked a PHD chemist friend and he sent the following:

Grapeseed Oil
This oil is extracted from the seed by crush-press and further extraction with solvents like hexane (lighter-fluid) which is later boiled off.
Like all vegetable oil, the backbone is glycerin (glycerol) which has 3 attachment points for fatty acids. Sometimes only one is used (monoglyceride) or 2 (diglyceride) , when it is 3 you have the tri-glyceride.
Assuming you have a plant that uses all 3 in its oil, it can further complicate matters by mixing and matching the kind of fatty acid that is attached.
100% Pure Grapeseed Oil is a light‚ odorless oil with mild astringent and emollient properties. This versatile oil contains numerous essential fatty acids including Linoleic‚ Oleic‚ Stearic‚ Palmitic‚ Myristic and Lauric Acid.
Glyceryl esters of the aforementioned acids are not suitable for “drying oil” like linseed or tung oil.

I googled "walnut oil for finishing wood" and found the following:
Composition. Walnut oil is composed largely of polyunsaturated fatty acids (72% of total fats), particularly alpha-linolenic acid (14%) and linoleic acid (58%), oleic acid (13%), and saturated fats (9%).

Not sure what the lure of walnut oil might be - even on weed-pots, I'll stick to one of the many concoctions that "dry"?

Question to the chemists out there:
- Is "dry" and "cured" the same?
- Does dry or cure mean inert?
- Does inert mean "food-safe"?
 
Hi @John Tisdale I’m not a chemist, but…

Dry vs cured - not at all the same, particularly in the turning context. Most folks say dry when it feels dry. How much was put on has a whole lot to do with that. For oils and varnish, cured means the x-linking (combination with O2) has occurred, at which point it becomes more or less inert. Walnut oil is a drying oil but is pretty slow. Also depends on how it was processed. The walnut oil for turners has some heat treatment which does something with the fatty acids so it cures faster. Some say the roasted grocery store oil is similar - I have yet to test it. Mahoney’s does dry (I’m sure Dr Woodshop does to, havent used it). My test is to put a drop on a non porous surface and see how long it takes. Heat up to around 100F really speeds it up.

Inert and food safe more or less mean the same to me. In this context it means a small piece of cured finish would pass through the body with no harm. Several prominent wood finishers, and the FDA, consider varnishes and drying oils as food safe once cured. Yes BLO, with metal driers, is considered food safe when cured.

I use walnut oil on items that will see utensil contact - it is relatively soft so doesnt look as bad as harder finishes after being cut and scraped by utensils, and easy to add more oil later as needed.

Weed pots - use anything really. Usually use some thinned poly applied like danish oil.
 
Not a scientific test but a newbie result. I put some doctors walnut oil with the micro wax on the piece after this boxelder. Walnut shallow dish. Several coats (4-5) because it was on the lathe while I was doing some other stuff in the shop and yesterday I noticed my nice newish axminster chuck wasn't shiny and pristine anymore. It had a white glaze over it like when you apply paste wax to your car and let dry. I had a hard time getting that cleaned off with denatured alcohol. It took several scrub downs to get rid of it.

Lesson learned. Don't wipe down a chuck with a paper towel that has been used with walnut oil and wax.
 
Dave Hulett said:
I just finished walnut bowl and ordered some of Mahoney's Walnut oil and the wax. I called mike and talked to him for advice. Hae said 24 hours is long enough before putting on the wax.
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I'm still getting some fingerprints/oil coming out just the other day but I had the thing saturated with too much oil probably. dr's woodshop used.
 
Sam Fleisher said:
I'm still getting some fingerprints/oil coming out just the other day but I had the thing saturated with too much oil probably. dr's woodshop used.
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Too much oil….it depends on what one is after. For max protection the wood should absorb as much as possible.

If only a bit of color to the wood is wanted, then limited application can achieve that. Some apply a light coat and think it is dry the next day - no, the wood just soaked it in and it feels dry. At normal room temps it takes a couple of months for walnut oil to actually cure out.

Heat really helps walnut oil cure faster. I have a largish cardboard box (lowers flaps taped upright and sitting on the floor) with a small 400w heater. With the top flaps closed, fresh air allowed to enter the bottom and exit the 1” or so opening between flaps, pieces get up around 100F and cure out in 3-4 days in winter, a bit warmer and faster when its warmer. The oil will bleed out - I check them 1 or 2 times a day and just wipe off the bleed out. It eventually stops, and after another day or so “in the hot box” the smell (nose right at the surface) pretty well goes away, indicating it has pretty well cured.
 
Doug Freeman said:
Too much oil….it depends on what one is after. For max protection the wood should absorb as much as possible.

If only a bit of color to the wood is wanted, then limited application can achieve that. Some apply a light coat and think it is dry the next day - no, the wood just soaked it in and it feels dry. At normal room temps it takes a couple of months for walnut oil to actually cure out.

Heat really helps walnut oil cure faster. I have a largish cardboard box (lowers flaps taped upright and sitting on the floor) with a small 400w heater. With the top flaps closed, fresh air allowed to enter the bottom and exit the 1” or so opening between flaps, pieces get up around 100F and cure out in 3-4 days in winter, a bit warmer and faster when its warmer. The oil will bleed out - I check them 1 or 2 times a day and just wipe off the bleed out. It eventually stops, and after another day or so “in the hot box” the smell (nose right at the surface) pretty well goes away, indicating it has pretty well cured.
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I'll have to give something similar a try. I keep one of those oil filled heaters running constantly to combat the dampness in my shop. I wonder if I moved it under the cast iron wing of my vintage craftsman table saw and then set the bowl above it with an upside down box on top of that to hold in the heat if it would do anything? Can't hurt to try I guess.
 
Richard Coers said:
I didn't think walnut oil ever cured. Same for raw Tung oil and raw flax oil.
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I have Mahoney’s. I did 2 tests, both with 1 drop of oil on a nonporous surface:

> inside the house, at ambient, ~72F 40’s %RH, it took ~ 8-9 weeks for it to cure

> in my shop, in the “hot box”, ~100F, varying humidity, it took about 4 days to cure.

I have read comments that sunlight seems to help walnut oil cure faster. I’ve sort of tested that claim by sitting a saturated piece out in the sun when the temp was in the 70’s. After a couple of days it seemed too be progressing much slower than another piece I had in my “hot box” (very scientifically based on “look, feel, smell!) so I aborted the test. It was a couple days behind the piece that started in the hot box, so my conclusion was/is heat speeds it up, not uv/sunlight.

Raw tung oil does cure but I think it is slower than the heat treated walnut oil. Raw linseed/flax can take months to cure - never tested it, only blo, and I’ve never tested any of the heat treated linseed like T&T, Im sure it cures out , but blo doesnt concern me once cured so I use it.
 
I'm no expert, but I had better results (for sheen and drying time) with odie's oil. Plus it doesn't darken black walnut like walnut oil does.
 
Brian Gustin said:
Thing I like about most oil finishes like Linseed oil, Tung Oil, etc (depending on what kind of walnut oil or danish oil you bought) they are easy to repair/recoat/refinish with the same finish over top.. But in your 2nd photo, yeah that appears to be actual wood damage (fingernails if wood is soft, or just bumping it on lathe bed or bump it with a tool, etc) that you'd have to steam out or sand away (or both) - Could try taking a wet white cotton cloth over the flaw and iron it (if your S.O. won't let you borrow her iron, can usually find a cheap one in working order at goodwill or possibly even a curling iron if the defect is small) - steam can help raise the grain back out and remove dents like that in many woods (Though some woods may have undesirable reactions with minerals in water, or any dyes/chemicals in the cloth used.) and then another coat of finish (after I suppose a light sanding with 600 grit)
Click to expand...
If it like our local Mulberry, a fingernail is not going to scratch it.
 
Tim Otto said:
If it like our local Mulberry, a fingernail is not going to scratch it.
Click to expand...
It was the boxelder not the mulberry that got the damage. The mulberry piece polished pretty well but it might be due to the fact it's been around for awhile. It's my experiment candy dish. I've done a lot of different things to it.
 
Sam Fleisher said:
It was the boxelder not the mulberry that got the damage. The mulberry piece polished pretty well but it might be due to the fact it's been around for awhile. It's my experiment candy dish. I've done a lot of different things to it.
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Here is what our local mulberry looks like. The camera does not do it justice as there is an iridescent effect when one rolls the piece around
 
Maybe forgot the picture? The mulberry in my pic is dyed giving it the wine color.


"iridescent effect" = chatoyance?
 
Richard Coers said:
I didn't think walnut oil ever cured. Same for raw Tung oil and raw flax oil.
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I'm kind of thinking that now. I just turned the tenon off the shallow walnut bowl I mentioned on April 26th. I was waiting to do it on my vacuum chuck when I got it running and today June 12th the vacuum still pulled a bunch of oil out of the bowl while I was turning off the tenon. Roughly a month and a half, still not cured/ dry.
 
Chris Lawrence said:
What type of walnut oil did you use? Was it made for wood or a salad oil? If you use oil made for cooking it needs to not have preservatives in it. The stuff they put in it to make it last longer will make it take a long time or possible never cure.
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Doctors Woodshop brand, I have both the plain finishing and the one with the micro wax. I'm not 100% which one I used but both said they harden in the instructions.
 
Sam Fleisher said:
Doctors Woodshop brand, I have both the plain finishing and the one with the micro wax. I'm not 100% which one I used but both said they harden in the instructions.
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That stuff is made for wood finishing so it should cure. Pretty sure its like tung oil and works with oxygen to cure. When I use tung oil I use my drying box from when I was growing hops. Just a plywood box with screen shelves, and a sealed door. There's an opening in the bottom and an exhaust fan in the top that pulls air through the box.
 
AFAIK, walnut, tung, and linseed/flaxseed, are the only vegetable origin oils that cure. But they do cure. Wish I could remember the reliable reference I had found for that.

In my experience, if you apply a whole lot, with multiple coats, and really load up the wood with oil, it will take forever to finally cure, and you will definitely get some coming back out with a vacuum chuck.
 
Heat will dry these oils much faster. As @Chris Lawrence mentioned, a “drying box” does wonders. In the summer, setting the piece in the sun can do it, but when it is cool, getting the piece up around 100F can dry out an oil soaked piece ~3 days. Mahoney’s oil testing - drop of oil on non-porous surface, inside the house it took over 2 months to cure. In a hot box it took ~ 3 days.
 
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