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Vacuum chucking with a shop vac or dust collector

Joined
Jun 14, 2011
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Location
Brooklyn, NY
I saw a YouTube video using a shop vac as a vacuum source for vacuum chucking on a nova lathe with a nova coupler. It appeared to work well.
I have a jet 1642 and there is a stock handwheel coupler By J T Turning tools for $120 but it does not accept a shop vac hose and I suppose I could rig something up.
My questions are:
Will this work effectivly?
How can I hook up a shop vac hose?
Can I use my 2 hp dust collector as a vac source? I can't imagine having both that and a shop vac running simutaniously.
Thanks in advance.
Rob
 
I used my Fein vac for years. If you don't use a 2 stage vac you will probable burn up the vac. Dust collectors don't have enough pressure to hold the vacuum.
I used the Nova vac attachment mounted backwards into a recess I turned in a Corion hand wheel I turned for the lathe then the step down rubber adapter Fein sells fits over the Nova adapter,the threaded holes on the adapter work for adjusting the vacuum till you get the piece centered.
Someone at the Cincinnati symposium in I think 2001 or 2003 was showing the system.
 
As Harry said, a Fein vac will work. Don't try it with a typical shop vac because the motor will overheat. The amount of vacuum is a bit low compared to a vacuum pump so use a large diameter chuck and keep the tailstock in place.
 
I have read in several places warnings of burning up the vac's motor, but conversely have read of folks who have never had a problem. I wonder if those saying it can burn up the motor actually experienced it or surmised it. Have either of you gentlemen actually experienced it? How about if you drill a few by-pass holes in the hose to ensure the vac gets outside air?

Regards,

Matt
 
A shop vac will work. As others have said the shop vac has to be of the type that the motor is cooled by a fan separate from the vacuum stream. This source for vacuum chucking is typical down under. The original Stuby lathes had a vacuum port which has leaks in the system. While the leaks were not an issue for a shop vac they didn't work for woodturners in the USA who use low volume vacuum pumps.

Now for the down side.

NOISE A diaphragm vacuum pump, which is often used for a vacuum source, is so quiet that the noise from the pump can be on without interfering with normal conversation. Some folks like to "listen" to their woodturning as the sounds indicate many things about the process. This listening can not work with a shop vac.

The vacuum chucking process usually goes on for many minutes, longer than most cleanup operations with a shop vac. The shop vac's life will be reduced.

The vacuum chucking process with a shop vac is a heavy load on the vacuum. Listen to your shop vac when you cover the hose with your hand That increased load with shorten the life of your shop vac.

The attachments used for vacuum pump vacuum chucking, with the exception of the chucks, don't work with the shop vac. So you need a different coupling and a different way to adjust the amount of vacuum.

On the plus side a shop vac used as your vacuum source can move so much air that difficult to chuck woods such as red oak or ash and even small voids.
 
Listen to your shop vac when you cover the hose with your hand That increased load with shorten the life of your shop vac.

This is a little counter intuitive - if you stop the airflow such as with vacuum chucking the amp draw of the vacuum will go down - this is because the motor is actually doing less work - ie not moving air and no air resistance for the motor to work against.

With the reduced resistance the motor speed increases even though the amp draw goes down - hence the increase in pitch.

What I am not sure of is if this increased speed generates more heat etc. and shortens the life of the motor. Logically or illogically I would think fewer amps means less energy and heat to the motor, but if the motor is cooled by the air flow that has been stopped bad things will be happen.

Just my 2 cents - food for thought.

Martin
 
The Nova adaptor has a hole in the side to let more air flow through to hopefully avoid vacuum burn out. I tried it when I first got it and it worked well. I have since filled that hole with a set screw and use it with a regular vacuum pump now.
 
forgot to mention. I stopped using the shop vac not because it didn't work but because mine was noisier than a 747 taking off. It also did not work as well for small turnings. At that time I was doing 3" and 4" mirrors and it just didn't hole them very well. Even a good vacuum pump has trouble on those sizes. Remember it's the square inches of space as well as the power of the unit that gives the holding power.
 
This is a little counter intuitive - if you stop the airflow such as with vacuum chucking the amp draw of the vacuum will go down - this is because the motor is actually doing less work - ie not moving air and no air resistance for the motor to work against.

Actually, it is not counter-intuitive when viewed from a different perspective. A picture is worth at least a thousand words so I created the following graph showing typical normalized performance characteristics of a DC motor. The reason for showing a DC motor model is that all shop vacs and most small hand tools use universal motors which are DC motors that are commutated such that they also run on AC power. Larger motors including those used in all of the vacuum pumps that I know of use various forms of capacitor start AC induction motors or shaded-pole AC induction motors.

dc-motor-characteristics.jpg

The shaded gray area represents the desired normal operating regime of a shop vac motor where the efficiency is near its peak value and the output horsepower is about 75% of peak. On this type of motor, the speed is a function of the applied voltage minus voltage required to provide the necessary power to offset the load torque. The green line depicts this relationship for a constant applied voltage where we see that the speed reaches its peak for a no load condition and is zero at a value known a the stall torque. The motor for a shop vac is supplied with a constant 120 VAC, but if other voltages were used, they would be shown parallel to the green constant voltage line that represents speed v. torque for that particular constant voltage.

The red line represents motor current and the slope of the line is known as the torque constant usually expressed as oz-in/Amp or lb-ft/Amp.

As shown by the blue curve, the motor reaches peak horsepower output at 50% of stall torque, but the normal operating point is typically about 60-70% of that value on the "front" side of the power curve for a couple reasons: The efficiency (shown in magenta) is greatest in that region and it is imperative to avoid operating on the "back" side of the power curve.

On the front side of the power curve, motor performance is self-correcting (engineers refer to it as a closed-loop system) that maintains its operating speed within known bounds by increasing the current when the load torque increases and vice versa.

Next, let's look at airflow in a typical shop vac. Most of them use squirrel cage blowers. The torque load at start-up is essentially zero and as the motor comes up to speed, the torque load increases -- the final load torque is a function of back pressure due to things like the hose length, the type of tools used on the hose, and condition of the dust collection bag/filter. Things that increase the back pressure like using a long hose with a crevice tool and a dust bag that is packed full and a dirty filter will result in the greatest back pressure. Since the motor is trying to reach its steady-state speed, it means that motor current must increase to overcome the greater load torque. You will hear it in the increased noise that the motor makes as the current increases to maintain its speed as well as a sound change from the blower.

Now, here is a simple test: put the palm of your hand over the end of the shop vac hose. Note the sound change and the amount of vacuum that you feel. The vacuum does not go away when you do this (hopefully) -- which should convince you that the motor actually is doing work. It is not the volume of air being moved that determines the motor current, but the back pressure (or vacuum) that must be overcome to maintain its steady-state speed. The greater this value is, the greater the motor current to overcome the torque load. While the shop vac may not be moving any significant quantity of air it is doing its maximum amount of work in maintaining the vacuum the differential pressure level.

What I am not sure of is if this increased speed generates more heat etc. and shortens the life of the motor. Logically or illogically I would think fewer amps means less energy and heat to the motor, but if the motor is cooled by the air flow that has been stopped bad things will be happen.

There is no speed increase -- probably a small decrease. The change in sound is due to a couple things. First, the blower has changed from moving a large quantity of air at lower velocity to little air flow, but maintaining a very large differential pressure between the inside and outside of the blower. Additionally, the increased torque load and increased current flow causes a more labored sound from the motor.

The greatest reason that the motor overheats is that it is starved of cooling air. In the average shop vac, the filtered air is exhausted through the motor to provide cooling. The higher-end vacs exhaust the dust collection air through side vents and have separate motor cooling that uses room air.
 
Thanks Bill, that was fun to read and very thorough. I'm tracking, but it seems to me that a bypass hole will account for the necessary cooling without any noticeable loss of vacuum given the large volume flow associated with wet/dry vacs. It looks like from several reports in some of the forums that it is working for folks. That said, I haven't really seen anyone report positive or negative with regard to longevity of the vac motor. That is why I was wondering if you have actually experienced the motor burning out or a reduction in its expected life using this method?

Regards,
 
Thanks Bill, that was fun to read and very thorough. I'm tracking, but it seems to me that a bypass hole will account for the necessary cooling without any noticeable loss of vacuum given the large volume flow associated with wet/dry vacs. It looks like from several reports in some of the forums that it is working for folks. That said, I haven't really seen anyone report positive or negative with regard to longevity of the vac motor. That is why I was wondering if you have actually experienced the motor burning out or a reduction in its expected life using this method?

Thanks for the compliment.

The short answer to your last question is, no.

My shop vac is a Fein which gets its cooling air independent of the flow through the vac. When I started woodturning about seven years ago, I really wanted to build a vacuum system using my shop vac as the vacuum source. I was told by many turners in my club that it wouldn't work because it could not create sufficient vacuum and the motor would overheat and have a short life span. I didn't know much about the requirement of a vacuum chucking system at the time and the folks that I asked didn't really know much about the Fein shop vac except that it was expensive.

For the reason cited above, I went the conventional route of using a Gast vacuum pump (I got it for a steal). I made my own chuck and rotary coupler. In retrospect, my shop vac would have worked just Fein ... er, I mean fine. On the plus side a shop like the Fein has lots of flow capability and on the minus side, the vacuum is a bit on the low side when compared to a real vacuum pump. If you keep the limitation in mind, it is easy enough to adjust the way that you use it so that problems are minimized.

To expand upon my answer to your last question, using an ordinary low cost shop vac as a vacuum source was never on my radar, nor would I have considered it if that was the type of shop vac that I had since my engineering expertise would have told me that it is a bad idea.

That's not to say that I have never burned up a universal motor -- I did with a weed-eater when I failed to clean out the grass clippings that were clogging the air intake. It gradually lost power over several weeks until it finally would not run at all.

As far as I know, consumer products like shop vacs and other tools with small universal motors do not have MTBF data nor any sort of life cycle testing. If something makes it beyond the warranty expiration, then that is all that matters. Many companies EOL products about two or three years after the end of production -- meaning that spare parts are no longer available.

One thing that I have read in the owners manuals of a couple of my former shop vacs (that served me well and loudly before departing) was that the instructions stated to shut off the vac power if they tipped over because a "float plug" would block airflow through the motor. The reason was to prevent water from passing through the motor if the vac was being used to pick up water. Additionally the float plug blocked the airflow when the water in the canister reached a certain level. What was not stated, but easy enough to figure out was that blocking the airflow was not good for the longevity of the motor.

What is the "right" balance between vacuum level and airflow for cooling the motor is the $64 question. The vacuum level is certainly sensitive to leakage, but not to the extent that a vacuum pump with very limited airflow would be. If you have an IR thermometer, you might be able to keep tabs on the motor temperature. Compare that value to the motor temperature when it is operating normally as a shop vac.

How much noise are you willing to tolerate. Some of them are unbearably loud and others are amazingly quiet. There seems to be an inverse relationship K = $/dB, where K is a universal constant that applies to all shop vacs.
 
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Rob, This really doesn't address your specific question, but instead of trying to save a few buck using a shop vac for a vaccum chuck, Just get you a typical vacuum system and enjoy it.... By typical vacuum system I mean a Vacuum pump, a vacuum chuck, and the hardware to hook it up. Here is the bottom line....If you creat a nice turning, are you willing to hold it with a chuck you put together uising a shop vac. trying to save a buck? Sorry to be blunt about this....but I speak from experience. Vacuum chucks are a pleasure to use and, if you turn a lot...., you will enjoy it and get good results....

Mr Bill
 
Bill,

Thanks for the discussion. I suppose the amount of noise you're willing to tolerate, what your trying to accomplish and how often you plan to use the system are all necessary questions that need to be answered to determine what system is best for you. The wet/dry might be a good temporary route to Mr. Bill's recommendation.

Rob,

Here is a link to one guys approach to using the wet/dry vac - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGX1177iQ30&feature=player_embedded. I am assuming you saw Bob Hamilton's videos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBgGm7xIfQ0.


Best regards to all,

Matt
 
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In the discussions above there were a lot of opinions about shop vacuum cleaners versus vacuum pumps but there were no numbers to backup the opinions. The bottom line is what level of vacuum is developed that can be used for holding the turning onto the chuck and how much do you need for your application? The vacuum chuck does not care what generated the vacuum. Once the needed vacuum levels are resolved then it is a question of reliability and acceptable noise levels.
Now, you have me courious. So, I guess I will just have to go measure the vacuum levels generated by my shop vacuum to see if the levels are useable for me.
Rmember, there are those that don't care about numbers, if it works that is sufficient. Then there are others of us that want to knoiw how well it is working and what the safety margin is.
 
In the discussions above there were a lot of opinions about shop vacuum cleaners versus vacuum pumps but there were no numbers to backup the opinions. The bottom line is what level of vacuum is developed that can be used for holding the turning onto the chuck and how much do you need for your application? The vacuum chuck does not care what generated the vacuum. Once the needed vacuum levels are resolved then it is a question of reliability and acceptable noise levels.
Now, you have me courious. So, I guess I will just have to go measure the vacuum levels generated by my shop vacuum to see if the levels are useable for me.
Rmember, there are those that don't care about numbers, if it works that is sufficient. Then there are others of us that want to knoiw how well it is working and what the safety margin is.

John,

You can measure your vacuum with a gauge and/or obtain the water lift spec (because wet/dry vac manufacturers don't necessarily publish the vacuum spec) and calculate it using the following:

pci is defined as pounds per cubic inch

weight of one cubic inch of H2O is 0.036127 lbs

vacuum (psi) = water lift (in) x 0.036127 (pci)

Force against chuck (lbs) = chuck contact area (in^2) x vacuum (psi)

1 psi = 2.04 inHg

A five to six horse wet/dry will likely get you in the neighborhood of 70-90 inches of water lift (depending on manufacturer and model). A smaller wet/dry will might get you in the 30s. This translates to a small vac pulling around 1.25 psi and the larger five to six horse units doubling the max amount. Obviously the gauge will come in handy when checking the actual system for functionality.

Have fun!

Matt
 
John,

You can measure your vacuum with a gauge and/or obtain the water lift spec (because wet/dry vac manufacturers don't necessarily publish the vacuum spec) and calculate it using the following:

pci is defined as pounds per cubic inch

weight of one cubic inch of H2O is 0.036127 lbs

vacuum (psi) = water lift (in) x 0.036127 (pci)

Force against chuck (lbs) = chuck contact area (in^2) x vacuum (psi)

1 psi = 2.04 inHg

A five to six horse wet/dry will likely get you in the neighborhood of 70-90 inches of water lift (depending on manufacturer and model). A smaller wet/dry will might get you in the 30s. This translates to a small vac pulling around 1.25 psi and the larger five to six horse units doubling the max amount. Obviously the gauge will come in handy when checking the actual system for functionality.

Have fun!

Matt

Matt,

John Giem is an engineer who wrote the article on vacuum chucking for the February 2011 issue of American Woodturner. He was just curious about what sort of performance could be had from using a shop vac.

There is no such thing as a 5 or 6 HP shop vac. A 5 HP motor running on 120 VAC would require a 60 Amp breaker. If it operated on 240 VAC, it would require a 40 Amp breaker.

Regardless of manufacturers HP claims, if you could only get 70 to 90 inches of water vacuum that is barely more than 3 PSI and not suitable for any sort of vacuum chucking. I believe that my Fein shop vac will do far better than that. I measured it once, but do not recall how well it performed. I guess that I need to do what John is doing and make some measurements.
 
Bill,

I didn't connect the name to the article. I just thought I was answering a question for a fellow woodturner.

It might have helped you by saying "peak HP" as that is what most manufacturers use to describe their vacuums.....I was just using the terms to differentiate between small and large capabilities. The important number, short of knowing the actual vacuum, is the water lift which is typically published and/or gotten directly from the manufacturer.

Your assertion that 3 psi is not suitable for any sort of vacuum chucking is pretty definitive and misleading in my experience. I would argue that the truth about the utility of different vacuum systems is somewhere between the requirements of the individual turner and his or her skill with a chisel. I think John sees this point when he said, "So, I guess I will just have to go measure the vacuum levels generated by my shop vacuum to see if the levels are useable for me. Remember, there are those that don't care about numbers, if it works that is sufficient. Then there are others of us that want to knoiw how well it is working and what the safety margin is." I am one of those "I have to know.." kinda guys myself.

I'd encourage you to not only do some measuring, but give a few pieces a try...I think you will be surprised at the utility of even a low vacuum system. The gentlemen in the links I provided a few responses back have recognized it for their purposes.

Based on the specs I have seen for Fein vacs (water lift around 100), I predict that you will only get between 3-4 psi which is sufficient for certain requirements.

Regards,

Matt
 
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I'll modify my comments by saying that it would be doable, but marginal or at least require much greater care when finish turning the foot. I have spent quite a bit of time making measurements since like John Giem, I am also an engineer and cursed with the data collection affliction. My assessment of a vacuum level that low is based on my personal testing of how low can I set the vacuum while still not causing the turning to shift around on the chuck after removing the tailstock to finish the final part of the foot.

My rudimentary measurements were biased by the fact that I only had one vacuum chuck at the time -- four inch diameter. A five inch diameter chuck would have resulted in about a 50% increase in holding force while also limiting its use to larger pieces. Now that I have a larger lathe, I plan to build a few larger chucks.

Measurements will only take you so far, however, and I feel that I am less concerned with actual values as John may be. The unknown and not readily quantifiable part that of all this is the turning style and skill of the individual and the wood being used. The real quetion that numbers cannot fully address is, "based on my turning style and skill level and the variability of leakage through the wood and other parts of the system, will the bowl stay on the lathe?" The answer for me if the vacuum level is roughly 6.5 inches of mercury using a better grade shop vac is that I could do it, but I would worry about the bowl shifting around if I accidentally got a little to exuberant with a gouge or scraper.

I did not mention it earlier, but the advantage of a shop vac with its large flow rate would be for naught if not handled properly in the system design. For example, a large diameter hose must be used or else the flow rate will be limited to well below what the shop vac could otherwise produce. The greatest obstacle in this respect is the hole through the lathe spindle which usually is not much more than 10 mm, if that large. I tink that John Giem might have already mentioned this issue.

As an aside, a few years ago, there was a class action settlement involving most of the air compressor manufacturers about using fictitious horsepower ratings which had no relationship whatsoever to reality. Collectively, the settlement required the defendants to cough up a few hundred million dollars in the settlement where they admitted no wrongdoing, but agreed to stop their wrongdoing anyway. In the big scheme of things, it probably amounted to not much more than a gentle slap on the wrist, but the lawyers on both sides were the real winners while the class action members received token door prizes for their participation. The situation is hardly any different for manufacturers of routers, shop vacs, and numerous other small shop tools with fractional horsepower motors except that the litigation was limited to only air compressors and did not include the other products. More recently, a comparable settlement was reached regarding gas powered lawnmowers. I received a whopping sum of roughly $35 in that settlement. All this is to say that manufacturers have no problem with creating totally fictitious horsepower ratings. Extravagant claims like peak HP, max developed HP, etc. for shop vacs have not even an iota of legitimacy. On the other hand, a rating of ¼ HP might approach being marginally believable.

BTW, I do plan to hook up a vacuum gauge to my shop vac just to see what I get, but the dust bag is nearly full and I don't feel inclined to change it out quite yet because of one of my other characteristics -- being frugal (a.k.a., cheap, tightwad, close to my money, miserly).
 
Update

UPDATE: Matt, it is a good thing that you suggested that I make some measurements because it led to the discovery of a problem. I opened the vac and found that the paper dust collection bag had split and fortunately I have a secondary pleated filter installed. After cleaning up the mess and installing a new bag, I measured a vacuum of about 6.3 inches of mercury which was not as good as my recollection, but it was about seven years ago when I last measured it. The thing that was impressive was the vacuum was still around 5 inches of mercury with a hole roughly a half inch in diameter at the end of the hose -- the measurement was being made about 20 inches down the hose. The barometric pressure was 29.9 inches of mercury -- essentially sea level pressure.
 
Bill,

Good to hear you're giving it some more consideration. The Fein site lists all three models between 90-99 inches of lift which is consistent with the measurement you took from you vac.

The four inch chuck is about where I started to see the frailty of the system too. I also thought a smaller hose might be an issue, but discovered that a 30 inch piece of 1/2" - 5/8" I.D. pressure hose didn't affect the readings noticeably (at least not within the accuracy of my mechanical gauge) and that is even with three 1/8" bypass holes in the end of the larger vac hose. What is also interesting about my system is that it maintains its max vacuum with a flow volume half that of the larger vacs which are typically well over 100 CFM.

Glad to hear about the additional benefit of discovering the filter/bag problem🙂

Best regards,

Matt
 
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and I don't feel inclined to change it out quite yet because of one of my other characteristics -- being frugal (a.k.a., cheap, tightwad, close to my money, miserly).

Bill,

I think the PC term for this characteristic is "Spending Challenged".

At least that is my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
Well, that's a lot to digest!
It seems as if my decision will be based on the following conclusions:
Using a Shop vac will work adequately.
Shop vacs are very noisy unless I spend a lot of money.
Shop vac is simpler to initially set up.
A vacuum pump is generally considered the better choice-better vacuum, compact, quiet...
Believe it or not I don't have a shop vac (just a 2 hp dust collector-too bad i cannot use it) so cost is not a major factor.
Looks like a vac pump is the way to go.
Did I miss anything?
Thanks to all,
Rob
 
Rob,

If cost is not an issue then I would recommend the pump. I'd imagine you would eventually find a need for a wet/dry vac, but something as small/inexpensive as a "Bucket Head" for a five gallon bucket would be good for simple clean ups around the lathe. If you have a desire to hand build part of your vac system then perhaps you'd enjoy making the chucks yourself. Hint - poplar makes a good chuck, but be prepared to seal it.

Enjoy,

Matt
 
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Venturi system

We had a demonstration at our guild meeting. I have not tried this. An air venturi vacuum piece creates a vacuum using compressed air. An adjustible air venturi vacuum pump operates by supplying compressed air to the supply port. When air pressure is applied, the venturi creates a vacuum at one end. The air is exhausted out the other end. So, one can create a vacuum powered by one's Bostitch air compressor.
 
Those venturi vacuum systems are LOUD. You get the noise of the air compressor and the high pitched whistle of the venturi. These are fine for short term use but they will put a lot of stress on the compressor and even more stress on your ears.
 
shop vacs

Hi to all, my 1st post here.

I realize that shop vacs are not able to pull anywhere near as many inHg, as a dedicated vacuum pump can, but they are a very useful alternative to trying vacuum chucking for yourself without going all in..

My own system was cobbled together using a vac that was on sale at a major big box store for 49.95 and rated at 6 hp (I know.. probably way off) It is remarkably quiet and I am able to reverse chuck 12 inch bowls without any problems at all. The rub comes when chucking smaller pieces (4" diameter or less), as there isn't enough pressure to work efficiently .. for me.

I don't find the 10mm through-hole in the headstock to be a detriment, as there is air being vacated against a seal, which is all that seems to be necessary to work well.

Working with a reduced vacuum does require a bit more finesse, no heavy cuts, no catches.. but it sure beats cleaning up bowl bottoms with a sander or fishtail gouge..

There isn't any good reason that bumblebees should be able to fly, either..
🙂

Just my opinion
 
Hi to all, my 1st post here.lf without going all in..

My own system was cobbled together using a vac that was on sale at a major big box store for 49.95 and rated at 6 hp (I know.. probably way off)

Welcome, Brian.

Six HP? 😀 Marketing people have no shame. There ae no real 6 HP motors that run on 120 VAC and very few single phase 240 volt motors of that size, I have seen exactly one 7.5 HP 240 volt single phase motor on a portable sawmill -- and that was not a regular production configuration. A six HP motor would weigh over 150 pounds and at 12o VAC it would draw btewreren 50 and 60 amps at full load. 🙂
 
Welcome, Brian.

Six HP? 😀 Marketing people have no shame. There ae no real 6 HP motors that run on 120 VAC and very few single phase 240 volt motors of that size, I have seen exactly one 7.5 HP 240 volt single phase motor on a portable sawmill -- and that was not a regular production configuration. A six HP motor would weigh over 150 pounds and at 12o VAC it would draw btewreren 50 and 60 amps at full load. 🙂

6 newborn horses 🙂
 
horsepower?

Yes, .. manufacturers unfortunately use some legal sleight-of-hand to be able to print those ratings on the boxes they come in. They take motors at low temp and measure inflow current (which only lasts for about 8 milliseconds before it hits the windings). It really has nothing to do with the actual physical output of the motor itself. My vac, in reality probably outputs under 1/10th of a horse.
But.. I love vacuum chucking bowls with it. And it's inexpensive.
I really should upgrade and install a vacuum gage inline. I'm curious to know how much (or how little) vacuum I'm pulling..
 
Small pieces are a problem with a regular vacuum chuck as well. The holding power is 14lbs per square inch. When doing my small pocket hand mirrors I only have a 3" circle. Haven't calculated it but there aren't very many square inches in a 3" cirlce so you have very little holding power.
The trick to turning the bottom or in my case the backside when you don't have much holding power is to not force the cut. let the tool do the cutting. This is also a case where I do push on the bevel. Usually I spend hours telling everyone to glide or just barely ride the bevel. However in this case pushing on the bevel a little harder pushes the wood onto the vacuum chuck and also helps you slow down the feeding rate so you don't force the wood off the chuck.
 
My simple view of vacuum is how much of the air on earth gets to push the piece onto the chuck.

I have used a 2" diameter chuck to turn the tops of some ornament ideas I had. Inside diameter 1.5"
I was surprised that it worked. I was working on a 6" finial with a 3" disc. The 6" finial goes into the chuck and I could turn the top side of the disc and a small spindle element to hang it from.

I have hollowed a lot of irregular pieces on 4" chucks. One was 18" x 6 with a 5.5" sphere in the middle.
The hollowing creates a lot of side pressure which might break the vacuum seal letting the piece shift off center.
My solution is to tape the piece to the chuck with the strapping tape(thread reinforced). The tape won't hold it for turning but it does prevent breaking the vacuum seal.


Al
 
6 newborn horses 🙂

OK, 6 FP (foal power)

... They take motors at low temp and measure inflow current (which only lasts for about 8 milliseconds before it hits the windings). It really has nothing to do with the actual physical output of the motor itself. My vac, in reality probably outputs under 1/10th of a horse...

What you say is basically the scenario for a single phase capacitor start AC induction motor where the initial in-rush current is to provide sufficient torque to accelerate the rotor from zero to full speed in a fraction of a second. That initial current is known as the locked-rotor current because the motor does start out in a stalled or "locked rotor" condition for a couple milliseconds. But, all of this has zero to do with OUTPUT power which is what real NEMA motor ratings are actually all about. Output power from a motor is measured by measuring both the speed and the full load torque (which both have to occur at the same time to make any sense).

Just in case anybody is curious, one horsepower is 550 ft-lbs/sec where ft-lbs are a measure of torque in the English system of units and the 1/sec term is the speed in radians per second. Unless you are an engineer, you usually think in terms of RPM rather than "natural frequency" expressed in radians per second. So, if we lump all of the various conversion factors together, we can use the following relationship:
HP = (ft-lbs X RPM) / 5252 where 5252 is the composite conversion factor.
A real world example would be one of the Baldor motors that I have where the full load speed is 1750 RPM and the full-load torque is 4.5 ft-lbs. Plugging in the numbers give us a mechanical horsepower output of 1.5 HP, which is exactly what is stamped on the nameplate.

Most of us don't have the test equipment to directly measure torque with the motor running, but we can rearrange the equation to find out what the full load torque would be if we know the rated full load horsepower and the speed of the motor under full load. My Robust lathe has a 2 HP Leeson motor with a full load speed of 1740 RPM. Suppose that I want to know what is the maximum torque at the spindle at the maximum speed of 1065 RPM in the low speed range. First we plug in the motor numbers into the equation and we get:
ft-lbs = (2 X 5252) / 1740 = 6

The transmission ratio is 1065 / 1740 = 0.612 and momentarily ignoring efficiency, the spindle torque would be:

6 / 0.612 = 9.8 ft-lbs

The drive train uses a J-section belt which has a very high efficiency of about 98%, so:

9.8 X 0.98 = 9.6 ft-lbs.
I ought to mention that this is only at full speed and only when delivering the full load torque which is hardly ever the real operating point on a woodturning lathe. On any machine with electronic variable speed (aka, inverter), the available torque below base speed (1740 RPM in this case) is essentially constant, but the first equation tells us that the available power varies in direct proportion to the speed.

So, how about the 6 FP (foal power) shop vac? The shop vac uses a universal motor connected to a small squirrel cage blower. Universal motors have some odd characteristics. Their speed is not regulated in the sense that an AC motor is. At the maximum speed, the output power and output torque are both zero, therefore it is called the "no-load" speed. The peak power is reached between 1/4 and 1/2 no-load speed and peak torque is reached at zero speed, so for obvious reasons it is called the "stall torque".

But, how much power does it take to run a squirrel cage fan anyway? In free air, not much at all, but in a shop vac there is a meaningful pressure differential of several PSI, depending on how good the particular machine happens to be. I have a very good shop vac -- a Fein 9.77.25 with a nameplate rating of 1100 watts nominal power and maximum input power of 1200 watts (120 volts @ 10 Amps). I'm proud to say that machine really sucks. I have measured something around 7 in-Hg blocked-port vacuum.

We know that the mechanical output power can't be greater than the electrical input power and the efficiency of a universal motor is all over the map from zero to approximately 50% maximum. One horsepower is 746 watts, so 1200 watts would be 1.6 HP input power. Assuming a best-case 50% efficiency for the motor of the shop vac, the maximum mechanical output power would be approximately 0.8 HP. That's not slouching, but it is shy of the 6 HP claimed by the unmentioned brand by a factor of 7.5. I am sure that the marketeers for brand X have a song-and-dance routine to waltz around that minor discrepancy.

Small pieces are a problem with a regular vacuum chuck as well. The holding power is 14lbs per square inch.

It would be a bit less than that. A hard vacuum is 14.7 PSI differential. There are an abundance of air leaks in a vacuum chucking system and practical pumps for vacuum chucking run a bit closer to 26 in-Hg (12.8 PSI).
 
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