using thin lacquer before oil

[Raif Harik]

I recently read an article, either Steven Russel or Kent Weakley. The topic was, like a tip, for keeping lighter woods ... light when using oil finish. Now I can't find said article which means I may have dreamed this . But my recollection is they suggested thinning laquer a good amount and letting that soak into the piece like sanding sealer. Then applying an oil finish. This would reduce the amount of oil finish you end up using and also preserve the light color a bit more.
This seems kind of odd to me since I thought the idea of oil finish was to fill up all the cells with the oil. That is that the oil was all internal, not on the surface. And if you use lacquer first then you basically just have a lacquered piece.
Has anyone tried this? does it work? Is my reasoning flawed?
Thanks,
Raif

 

[Vincent Vogel]

This will work, I have a very light colored maple bowl that I put thinned water white conversion varnish on then tung oil. It preserved the light color. I don't have a picture of it finished yet it needs another coat of tung. I'll post a picture in gallery when done.

 

[Richard Coers]

I've always thought an oil finish was used to color the wood and have a soft finish that is not built up on the wood. I see no benefit of adding oil on top of lacquer. Especially natural oils that don't have driers added. It would take forever for the raw oil to dry sitting on top of lacquer. But there are countless numbers of people who will mix any kind of liquids together to come up with a magic elixir. Even ones that will market that elixir as some kind of magic finish.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

I agree with Richard about the random mixing of products and feeling there is justification. Doesn’t work that way. Oil penetrates and cures, typically slowly, by polymerization. Lacquer is a surface film finish and cures, pretty quickly, as a film as solvents evaporate away from the solids. Putting oil over the top of a cured film to limit the oil’s effect is pointless. Skip the oil, stick with the lacquer. Better yet, look to different shades of shellac if color toning is a goal.

Raif mentioned oil finish. Pure oil? Some sort of varnish? Varnish = oil+resin+solvent. Those oils cure fast by comparison to pure tung or linseed, some absorbing, some curing hard with the varnish resin as the solvents evaporate.

Don’t forget, there are other non-oil finishes that should be considered with lacquer and shellac, including water-based varnishes, which won’t darken light colored woods.

 

[Isaac Fisher]

If you use very thin shellac under the oil it will work great. Lacquer not so much.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

A member of our club uses lacquer as a grain filler under wiping poly. It's unorthodox, but it works for him and his finished surfaces are visually and tactilely exquisite, although his vessels are made as art pieces and not meant for practical usage.

He begins by rough sanding, then applies precat gloss lacquer with a rag on the lathe using a vacuum chuck until the end grain won't accept any more, then wipes the surface with thinner so there is essentially no lacquer left on the surface. After several days of drying he finish sands with high rpm air tools to 600# then buffs with something like tripoli (I think it is actually Grobet "bobbing compound"). Then he applies several coats of Minwax wipe-on poly, buffs again, lets that cure, then applies a thin coat of Renaissance wax and hand polishes that.

I think his process works because he intentionally develops a very thin build overall and whatever lacquer is left after sanding and buffing is not a film but in the wood. An advantage of lacquer is its fast drying time as opposed to multiple coats ogf the wiping poly. works almost exclusively with relatively dark woods like Koa and Milo that he brought with him from Hawaii. I can't comment on how his process affects the color. Nitro cellulose lacquer is said to yellow over time, so if one wished to retain the light color of maple or holly something like a CAB-Acrylic or water-white "non-yellowing" (marketing talk) lacquer would be more appropriate, as would water-borne acrylic lacquer. Another approach as opposed to a wiping varnish topcoat would be to topcoat with lacquer and buff it back.

I have actually been looking into trying this technique as I have some spalted maple pieces which I want to put a low-build non-yellowing finish on. Finding water-white gloss non-catalyzed lacquer locally without ordering a case of gallons has proved impossible and I have struck out so far online, so if anyone has a source please pass it on. I intend to try Bullseye Sealcoat shellac as a grain filler, which is generally accepted as compatible with any topcoat, followed by a wiping varnish (my go-to is Sutherland Welles Hard Oil). I am not sure yet how much the Sealcoat will affect the color. I may try bleach as a first step as well on some pieces. Another option which I have is sprayed acrylic lacquer (Target 6000) buffed back to a thin film.

This is all theoretical as I have been laid up for a couple of months and just starting to fumble around in the shop again. What is not theoretical is Kevin Kelley's use of lacquer under wiping varnish. He does a lot of things that are contrary to common practice but work very well for him.

 

[Raif Harik]

@Kevin Jenness , shellac was also mentioned by the article and it is less yellowing than oil but it does have some yellow to it. Also if buying shellac off the shelf, see if you can find a date stamp on it. Shellac has a very limited shelf life. It's possible that Bullseye puts additives to help it last longer, but I wouldn't want a can that was over a year old. Alternatively you can make it yourself from flakes. It's fun! There are numerous articles on how to do that. Kent Weakley has the best production value articles and goes into depth on shellac.
R

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I intend to try Bullseye Sealcoat shellac as a grain filler, which is generally accepted as compatible with any topcoat, followed by a wiping varnish (my go-to is Sutherland Welles Hard Oil). I am not sure yet how much the Sealcoat will affect the color. I may try bleach as a first step as well on some pieces. Another option which I have is sprayed acrylic lacquer (Target 6000) buffed back to a thin film.

Mix your own. Buy shellac flakes and mix with DNA or whatever alcohol is available in your area. I don't know what all is in those pre-mixed shellac cans, but I'll bet it's more than shellac and alcohol.

 

[Richard Coers]

Mix your own. Buy shellac flakes and mix with DNA or whatever alcohol is available in your area. I don't know what all is in those pre-mixed shellac cans, but I'll bet it's more than shellac and alcohol.

You don't have to guess or bet what is in the can, just look at the SDS.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

You don't have to guess or bet what is in the can, just look at the SDS.

I did. SDSs don't give all the ingredients. Sealcoat includes ethyl alcohol, isopropyl alcohol, methyl isobutyl ketone and water. I strongly suspect there are other components that keep the solution useable for the advertised 3 years, considerably longer than shellac mixed in the shop. That does not bother me even if Sealcoat may be a little softer than the homemade stuff.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

You don't have to guess or bet what is in the can, just look at the SDS.

I don't need to. I know those products include chemicals I don't need or want. If you want shellac, mix some. There's nothing more pure than shellac flakes and DNA (or whatever is available in your area). To each his or her own, I reckon.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

I don't need to. I know those products include chemicals I don't need or want. If you want shellac, mix some. There's nothing more pure than shellac flakes and DNA (or whatever is available in your area). To each his or her own, I reckon.

190 proof Everclear may be preferable to denatured alcohol, no methanol to be exposed to. Finding such liquor is the problem, not legal in some places.

I haven't mixed much shellac myself, but the last time I did, I used 91% isopropyl alcohol from the pharmacy. Does anyone else use isopropyl?

 

[Jerry Bennett]

I use 100 percent fuel alcohol from home depot in shellac flakes. The 91% stuff has water in it.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Fuel alcohol, google tells me that is denatured alcohol.

I've got a can of denatured in the shop, but I can't stand the smell, and that odor lingers for a good while unless I ventilate the shop. Methanol is not good for the human being, but this was discussed a bunch of months ago.

I just checked the wise ol' interweb again. Amazon sells 99% isopropyl for about $7/pint, just right for a small batch of shellac flakes. Larger quantities available as well. It's been a long time since I made any, I should give it a try sometime.

 

[John K Jordan]

they suggested thinning laquer a good amount and letting that soak into the piece like sanding sealer. Then applying an oil finish.

One thing I'd consider is when working with figured wood, such as burls and figured/quilted maple. I know the oil works well and results in a "deep" chatoyance, My one test with lacquer didn't provide the same chatoyance. With such wood, perhaps do a side-by-side comparison on an offcut.

190 proof Everclear may be preferable to denatured alcohol, no methanol to be exposed to. Finding such liquor is the problem, not legal in some places.

We can get it around here but apparently not all stores sell it.

Last year I bought a jug of 190 proof to make vanilla extract from vanilla beans. Note that it may not be the best method since it then needs to be diluted with water for the best extraction - most recipes recommend using 80 proof vodka. I've tried both and couldn't tell a difference in the result.

I make a big batch of pure vanilla extract every few years for our cooking and as gifts - people who cook and bake love it, especially since they know if I make it there are no questions about the process used commercially. My current batch is almost a month in (have to shake it every day) and it's beginning to smell great! - some instructions say it can be used after 4 weeks but I always let in infuse for at least 6 months.

Even buying imported Madagascar beans and the alcohol, we calculated the result is cheaper than buying the (supposedly) real stuff from the grocery stores. (BTW, if you try making some it's recommended to always buy "grade B" vanilla beans since they have less moisture to further dilute the alcohol - and they are usually cheaper.)

When I worked in a lab and used microscopes to analyze certain things we used PGA to clean optics and even to clean certain metallic surfaces before etching. The stuff came in 16oz glass bottles from a laboratory supply house, labeled "Absolute Pure Ethyl Alcohol U.S.P., Reagent Quality. 200 proof" It was NOT denatured so each bottle had a seal on the lid affirming the liquor tax had been paid. I'll bet that stuff was expensive. (We kept it locked up so it wouldn't disappear on night shift!)

Now how'd I get off of THAT tangent. I'll blame it on the ADDHHHD.

JKJ

 

[Mark Mandell]

Google will reveal a numnber of sources for 200 proof ethanol that is "denatured" with "bitrex" or similar stuff to make it non-drinkable. Last I paid was $42 for a gallon by 4 qt. plastic bottles.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Google will reveal a numnber of sources for 200 proof ethanol that is "denatured" with "bitrex" or similar stuff to make it non-drinkable. Last I paid was $42 for a gallon by 4 qt. plastic bottles.

Mmmm, bitrex, sounds delicious!

Denatonium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looks preferable to methanol.

 

[Mike Novak]

Fuel alcohol, google tells me that is denatured alcohol.

I've got a can of denatured in the shop, but I can't stand the smell, and that odor lingers for a good while unless I ventilate the shop. Methanol is not good for the human being, but this was discussed a bunch of months ago.

I just checked the wise ol' interweb again. Amazon sells 99% isopropyl for about $7/pint, just right for a small batch of shellac flakes. Larger quantities available as well. It's been a long time since I made any, I should give it a try sometime.

Will isopropyl work for shellac? I thought it had to be ethyl alcohol.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Will isopropyl work for shellac? I thought it had to be ethyl alcohol.

I'd need to refer to Bob Flexner's book (Understanding Wood Finishing) on this, it has been way too long of a time. But the last time I mixed a batch I used 90%+ isopropyl and it worked fine for me. But I'll openly admit to ignorance, too!

But I like the bitrex-denatured ethanol idea Mark suggested just above.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Fuel alcohol, google tells me that is denatured alcohol.

I've got a can of denatured in the shop, but I can't stand the smell, and that odor lingers for a good while unless I ventilate the shop. Methanol is not good for the human being, but this was discussed a bunch of months ago.

I just checked the wise ol' interweb again. Amazon sells 99% isopropyl for about $7/pint, just right for a small batch of shellac flakes. Larger quantities available as well. It's been a long time since I made any, I should give it a try sometime.

This is not directed at you Steve. I'm replying in general.

I don't think DNA is that harmful. Anything is harmful if you are cavalier about handling. I buy DNA in gallon jugs from Amazon. There's no particular smell other than the usual alcohol smell. I sometimes rinse my hands with DNA. I am not particularly careful on how I use it. Having said that, I recognize that some individuals might have a sensitivity to DNA. DNA is banned in California and some other states (Colorado?). That means nothing to me. California is the cutting edge of dumb policies. Don't get it in your eyes or inhale a bunch of fumes in an enclose area. Common sense, IMO.

Am I being dumb and cavalier about DNA? Perhaps.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Fuel alcohol, google tells me that is denatured alcohol.

I've got a can of denatured in the shop, but I can't stand the smell, and that odor lingers for a good while unless I ventilate the shop. Methanol is not good for the human being, but this was discussed a bunch of months ago.

I just checked the wise ol' interweb again. Amazon sells 99% isopropyl for about $7/pint, just right for a small batch of shellac flakes. Larger quantities available as well. It's been a long time since I made any, I should give it a try sometime.

Forgot to add that the stuff I buy on Amazon is ethanol, not methanol.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Understood, Kent. Thanks.

I think I'll explore the bitrex DNA if I get the hankering to try shellac again.

I've been sticking so close to T&T oils for many years now because I'm finding new sensitivities to things as "innocent" and common as Minwax wiping poly, and even mineral spirits. Things like lacquer thinner, or solvents containing toluene, are a no-go for me unless I'm outside standing upwind of the chemical. Even Zinsser canned shellac bothers me. It's very strange, but fumes from Minwax WP (and similar) gives me the strangest sensation that my lips are covered in sugar goo, like after eating cotton candy, or having too much pure maple syrup on pancakes. And I haven't drank any Minwax Wiping Poly in at least 10 years! (Joke! Please don't drink any wood finishing products.)

 

[Richard Coers]

Forgot to add that the stuff I buy on Amazon is ethanol, not methanol.

Ethanol is not healthy either. Ethanol is harmful by ingestion, inhalation or by skin absorption. Repeated contact can dry the skin resulting in the skin cracking, peeling and itching. Ethanol can depress the central nervous system, the eyes and upper respiratory tract (nose and throat)

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Right, so don't be an idiot when using it.

 

[Brian Gustin]

Ethanol is not healthy either. Ethanol is harmful by ingestion, inhalation or by skin absorption. Repeated contact can dry the skin resulting in the skin cracking, peeling and itching. Ethanol can depress the central nervous system, the eyes and upper respiratory tract (nose and throat)

Does rather depend on the source of the Ethanol. If you enjoy a beer now and then (or even daily all day long like some sots I know), Ethanol is perfectly safe (to a point!) Likewise your regular shot & a chaser before bedtime... or your daily glass of wine.....

 

[John K Jordan]

Will isopropyl work for shellac? I thought it had to be ethyl alcohol.

From the Lumberjocks forum a few years ago, a clear and concise explanation:

from shipwright ...the chemistry of alcohols determines their rate of evaporation.

• Methanol (methyl hydrate, methyl alcohol) is the fastest and is pretty useless for shellac as it just dries too fast.
• Ethanol (ethyl alcohol, Everclear, vodka) is slower than methanol and generally accepted as the go-to solvent for shellac.
• Isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol, rubbing alcohol) is a little slower yet and will give just a little longer for brush marks to fade. It is also a good solvent for shellac.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

With regards to incompatibility of finishes, I was watching an old video by Ray Key on turning and finishing boxes. the basic box He completed his sanding sequence with 000 steel wool and paste wax followed by lacquer, then rubbed that out again with 000 steel wool and wax, finishing with a final coat of wax buffed with a clean cloth. Very expedient, and judging by his reputation it must have looked and felt good to his buyers. I wonder how those pieces have held up over the years.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

I doubt that lacquer mfr. is okay with wax being under their lacquer. That lacquer adhesion benefits from the microscratches on the surface for mechanical bonding. Now those microscratches are full of wax. I wouldn't do it that way.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

I doubt that lacquer mfr. is okay with wax being under their lacquer. That lacquer adhesion benefits from the microscratches on the surface for mechanical bonding. Now those microscratches are full of wax. I wouldn't do it that way.

I wouldn't either. I am just pointing out another instance of a well-respected professional woodworker using unorthodox methods that seem to have worked for them in a specific situation. It would be instructive to get hold of a well-worn Ray Key box to see how the finish looks.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Fun to see that old video again, though. I think I had that on VHS forever ago!