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Undercut Bowl Rims

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Mornin' All,
Having trouble with just a bit of tear-out on deeply undercut cherry bowl rims. Really shows up during sanding...even fresh burr on my N/R scraper doesn't seem to clean it up. Suggestions please...Odie, you seem to have the formula, please step in here.
Thanks,
bill
 
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I"ve been working with some punky spalted silver maple bowls that l rough out months ago that were giving me tear out issues with everything I tried. I applied some diluted BLO that was sucked up like a sponge. That worked pretty well except on the undercut rim on one. I found success with my Hunter Badger. I was able to do a shear scrape in either direction.
 

hockenbery

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What has worked great for me is using the Bosch bent bar hollowing tool with a Hunter carbide cutter.
light cuts
also before the last finish cuts I soak the area with thin shellac ( 2x the alchohol). This hardens the fibers a bit to give an even smoother finish.

I think you would do well with several of the other Hunter tools a larger radius Carbide would be easier to follow the curve with.
 
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I don't do many with undercut rims. Still though, my finish cut would be a shear scrape. I have one video dedicated to that topic. A NRS is still a scraper, and will pull at the fibers more than a slicing/shear cut. They work great on some woods, and not at all on others.

robo hippy
 

john lucas

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I use the Hunter Badger for undercutting rims. He has another tool that's hooked shape and the cutter is sort of facing you. I would have to look that one up. Here is my video on undercut rims. I've tried all sorts of tools for this and the Hunter Badger is the best. I may have called it a #4 in the video because that's what he called it in the beginning.
I found the other video.https://youtu.be/FFW5ODChWkI
View: https://youtu.be/0VP398qXQXc
 
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I think you would do well with several of the other Hunter tools a larger radius Carbide would be easier to follow the curve with.

This is a point I've tried to make in the past regarding carbide inserts. The diamond shape inserts with a very small cutting nose radius, around .032", cut well with very little if any tearout. I believe the reason nobody offers them in hand turning tools is they're too aggressive making them difficult to hand control in smooth contouring.

Automated spindle turning lathes use the small nose radius diamond shape inserts to cut with and against the grain leaving surfaces with minimal tearout needing little sanding. They've been a well proven concept for many years, first ground from HSS then in carbide.

A larger radius cutter makes following a contour easier, but at the price of possible tear out.

I wonder if an experienced turner being very, very careful couldn't use one of the small radius cutters to clean up tearout. But, they'd have to make their own holder for the insert because nobody to my knowledge offers them.
 

john lucas

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I use the Hunter Badger for undercutting rims. He has another tool that's hooked shape and the cutter is sort of facing you. I would have to look that one up. Here is my video on undercut rims. I've tried all sorts of tools for this and the Hunter Badger is the best. I may have called it a #4 in the video because that's what he called it in the beginning.
I found the other video.https://youtu.be/FFW5ODChWkI
View: https://youtu.be/0VP398qXQXc
I guess the second video didnt make it. I'll try again.https://youtu.be/FFW5ODChWkI
 
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Among the other valuable responses you will get, keep grain orientation in mind. On the inside of an open bowl, we cut from rim to base in order to cut supported grain. With an undrecut rim, we should cut from the widest dimension to the bottom, and from the widest dimension back toward the rim in order to get the cleanest cut. Personally, I find this really hard.
 
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In wide open undercut bowls I often use a bowl gouge like this...

View: https://youtu.be/Bi06BX4vnOI

As you can (perhaps) see, I'm cutting from the widest area of the undercut towards the lip. You need quite convex wings (see start of video where I show that) on the bowl gouge for this type of scraping cut to work in that undercut area. With a pronounced convex wing the area near the tip is in a shear scraping position when the bowl gouge has its flute facing towards the wood surface.

I also do a lot of hollowing out with that method on not-so-closed hollow forms before getting into the dedicated and more expensive hollowers on deeper and narrower necked hollow forms.
 

odie

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Suggestions please...Odie, you seem to have the formula, please step in here.
Thanks,
bill

Howdy Bill. :)

For removing material, I use bowl gouges in three different diameters. The smaller the shaft diameter, the more pronounced the undercut can be.

Finish cuts are done with a shear scrape, using a standard ground scraper in a half-moon shape. At the appropriate point further from the rim, I transition from a standard scraper used in a shear mode, to a negative rake scraper used flat to the tool rest.

All three steps are essential.

-----odie-----

Note on definition of what an "undercut rim" is. I suppose it's just the way it is that different turners have different definitions of what an undercut rim is, but I make a distinction between an interior wall that merely slants inward, and and interior wall that curves inward sharply, so that it can become parallel, or nearly parallel with the surface the bowl rests upon.....the latter being an undercut rim, IMHO.

-o-
 
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Thanks everyone...need to digest and try the different approaches...well, really need to practice the different approaches.
Amazing how easy it sounds and looks when someone else is doing it. :rolleyes:
 
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WONDERFUL IDEA!! Thanks John for the invite...that's just what I love about this group...whether you're in Tennessee or Tim-Buc-Tu, same warm welcome and willingness to share.
 
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I do mainly hollow vessels, so the over hang or undercut is probably 2-3 times that Leo has shown. So I resort to shear scraping and vary the speed depending on the species, its a slow process cleaning it all up.
 
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1682323748750.jpegThere’s such elegence in these shapes! Thanks for posting these Leo. The undercut rim really elevates the simple bowl shape to something so much more appealing. Its 4:00 a.m. and I can’t wait (but I will, just a bit) to go out to the shop and experiment.
 
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This is a point I've tried to make in the past regarding carbide inserts. The diamond shape inserts with a very small cutting nose radius, around .032", cut well with very little if any tearout. I believe the reason nobody offers them in hand turning tools is they're too aggressive making them difficult to hand control in smooth contouring.

Automated spindle turning lathes use the small nose radius diamond shape inserts to cut with and against the grain leaving surfaces with minimal tearout needing little sanding. They've been a well proven concept for many years, first ground from HSS then in carbide.

A larger radius cutter makes following a contour easier, but at the price of possible tear out.

I wonder if an experienced turner being very, very careful couldn't use one of the small radius cutters to clean up tearout. But, they'd have to make their own holder for the insert because nobody to my knowledge offers them.
I have a fair amount of experience with carbide scrapers of various sorts. There are some diamond carbide inserts that come to a sharp point, but EZ wood and Carter Axe tips are rounded and these can be used, as you say, like tiny round scrapers (incidentally, the flat sides can also be used like any straight scraper to fair a convex curve). The above makers do make tools to mount their diamond inserts and EZ wood does sell handleless tools that can then be mounted in an articulated arm rig. The tool shafts can be pivoted on a "point" and the tool tips swung in a arc to create a concave curve, but there's some risk of screwing up the contour line that you are making/refining. I consider this an extra credit move. As to your comment about reduced tear out, I have never noticed it, but I have never looked to see, either.
 
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have a fair amount of experience with carbide scrapers of various sorts. There are some diamond carbide inserts that come to a sharp point, but EZ wood and Carter Axe tips are rounded and these can be used, as you say, like tiny round scrapers (incidentally, the flat sides can also be used like any straight scraper to fair a convex curve). The above makers do make tools to mount their diamond inserts and EZ wood does sell handleless tools that can then be mounted in an articulated arm rig. The tool shafts can be pivoted on a "point" and the tool tips swung in a arc to create a concave curve, but there's some risk of screwing up the contour line that you are making/refining. I consider this an extra credit move. As to your comment about reduced tear out, I have never noticed it, but I have never looked to see, either.

Mark, I didn't make it clear the type of carbide insert I was talking about. It's like the one pictured here. This would be referred to as a 35 degree diamond, high positive, polished insert that's razor sharp mounted flat. Same type insert used to machine aluminum.

35 degree insert.JPG

What causes tearout? Wood fiber bending away from the cutter rather than being cleanly severed, right? Lack of clean severing the fibers could be due to deflection of the wood away from the cutter or the cutter being pushed away from the wood. Either situation could lead to tearout. Now if you lower the cutter contact area to the wood there should be much less force either from the wood deflecting away from the cutter or the cutter being pushed away from the wood. The diamond insert has much less contact area with a 1/32" nose radius than say a 1/4" round insert both making the same depth of cut. AFAIK Hunter is the only maker using high positive inserts, but angling them in their mount lowers their positiveness. (there are a couple tool makers using high positive cutters with a depth limiting shield they don't seem to get much demand)

Watching turners and videos it's apparent that tools are bouncing off the work sometimes. I wonder if there isn't micro bouncing, too small to be noticeable to the turner, where tearout occurs. I've had this idea in the back of my mind that if the turning tools were weighted to about 75 pounds that might much lessen any bouncing. Of course that weight would eliminate the vast majority of turners..... Has anybody tried heavy turning tools?
 
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As for tear out, it varies a lot from one piece of wood to the next, and even pieces from the same tree. Softer woods tend to tear more than harder woods, most of the time. Kind of the same thing for what actually causes tear out. Most of the time it is from going against the grain. This happens twice each revolution in bowl/side grain orientation. The fibers are unsupported when going against the grain. Scraping cuts will tear out more than shear cuts. Think of it as going over speed bumps in your car. Hit the speed bump square on and you can get a pretty good bounce. Hit the speed bump at a 45 degree angel, and the bump is much less. Hit it at a higher shear angle and the bump is far less. Applied to woodturning, a scraper is like hitting the speed bump head on. A high angle shear cut is like hitting the speed bump at an angle. What happens is that the cutting edge, either bevel rubbing or shear scrape, has a much easier time getting under the fibers and lifting the wood as it cuts. Scraping tools are great for roughing out bowls, but leave a lot of tear out. They do a fair job of sweeping across the bottom of a bowl because you are not cutting down through the fibers, but across them. If you come up the transition and onto the walls, you will get more tear out. A NRS (negative rake scraper) is still a scraper, and while it takes less of a bite you still get tear out and again, this can vary hugely from one wood to another. This is why a gouge is preferred for a finish cut or in my case I prefer a shear scrape. I do have one video dedicated to that topic. Check out some of the Brian Havens videos. He uses plastic straws to demo wood grain orientation. Excellent idea!

As for heavy tools, a big NO from me, and I could manage a 75 pound tool if I wanted. I had a couple of the shot filled handles, and didn't like them. Not good for a full day of turning, just too much weight. As for bouncing, I think that is correct. This would be because, as far as I am concerned, as you cut the outside or inside of the bowl, there are 4 zones with grain running in different directions. You go with, against, with and against the grain each revolution. The cutting tool will react a bit differently when cutting in each zone. This is where the light touch works best. "The bevel should rub the wood, but the wood shouldn't know it." The harder you clamp down on your tool to eliminate that bounce, the more bounce you get. This is another reason I use a shear scrape for my finish cut. You are essentially nibbling the high spots off till you get close to perfectly round.

Another cause of bouncing is having your tool rest too far away from the wood you are cutting. Think of a flexible ruler. With minimal overhang off the edge of a table, pretty much no twang. The farther it extends off the edge of the table, the more twang you get.

robo hippy
 
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