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Twice turned bowl finish cuts

very cool Reed! and many thanks for the you tubes!
is interesting to see you using the different tools
and gotta say, have yet to see anyone else hold the scrapers the way you do, especially the curved one
is something I'm gonna have to try in the future. 😉

appreciate the videos, got 12 - 15 bowls rough turned and drying, so this "series" definitely a plus for me
curious since you seem to do a lot of bowls , do you usually do a straight side, ever do a protruding rim at top ?
 
Most of my bowls tend to have gentle curves and no details. I never really do the twice turned bowls. I like them sloppy wet, and let them warp. The more they warp, the more I like them, and the better they sell. 'Oh, they are so Organic!'

robo hippy
 
Great Video I enjoy your videos they are very instructional, I have subscribed to your youtube channel, can't wait to learn more from you!

Thanks!
 
Good overview of how different tools work.

Woodturning is full if trade-offs. Chucking the bowl to return it may be faster? It does limit your turning as you point out.

I re-turn the rim, the outside of the bowl, and true the tenon with the bowl jam chucked on the open chuck.
It allows easy access to use the bevel riding push cut to get it back in round.
Then a finish cut and shear scrape.

This method also allows me to adjust the rim so that the high and low points of rim are lined up so I can turn the largest bowl and have it in the least out of round orientation. Bowls centered on the grain when roughed out will warp symmetrically so this is a quick easy adjustment.

I urge you to caution beginners no to use the spindle roughing gouge in bowls and not use bevel contact with a scraper.
Your video clearly demonstrates your advanced skill level.
There are lot of newbies out there who have yet to master the bevel riding cut with the bowl gouge.
They are likely to get seriously injured trying to do what you do.
 
Al, I am not sure if you have seen this one or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhHeyoZLaY

Now, the question is exactly why does this catch happen? This is a point I make in demonstrations. It doesn't happen because he is using a spindle roughing gouge. He does some thing that is technically wrong with tool use. I do have a clip at the bottom of my channel of You Tube clips on making a finish cut with a spindle roughing gouge which I encourage all to look at.

One point on the bevel rubbing cut with the scraper, this cut is shown by several turners on video and during demonstrations. If you think about it, it is exactly the same cut I am doing with the fluteless gouge. The point that maybe I didn't make perfectly clear, and need to be redundant about is that you need to be cutting with the lower part of the tool to keep it balanced on the tool rest. If you check out my clip on turning a bowl with just scrapers, I do a finish cut with a scraper in the center inside of the bowl. I was at a workshop with Stuart Batty, and he saw me doing that and stopped me saying 'you can't do that, you will get a catch'. It is a cut that he doesn't understand, and as long as you rub the bevel, and work on the lower half of the tool. it will not catch. This is the same cutting technique you use with a skew chisel.

I want to get you in my booth in Phoenix to play around for a bit if you have the time. My main concern is teaching proper technique with all tools.

robo hippy
 
Please edit this video and remove the SRG segment!

I want to echo Al's concern about demonstrating the use of a SPINDLE roughing gouge on a bowl. Even though it was demonstrated on a convex surface, the use of the SRG on this type of turning is unnecessary, and should not be promoted in any form, regardless of the skill of the demonstrator. To beginners (and all turners, for that matter), the use of the spindle roughing gouge should be restricted to spindles - period. Given so many other tools available that you show to make finishing cuts and shear scraping on a second-turned bowl, demonstrating the use of the SRG in this capacity is absolutely not necessary, and its inclusion detracts from the value of the video you produced. Every current woodturning catalog selling these kind of gouges, as well as web sites showing any responsibility for training beginners clearly says for SRG's "Not for use on bowls" for an obvious reason; this video demonstration of the use of SRG's goes directly against that advice.

I hope that you would consider editing-out that part of the video, and putting the rest back up for people to learn from. In its present form, I can not recommend this video clip to beginners (or anyone else for that matter) because of the inclusion of that SRG segment. "Teaching proper use of all tools" does not include using the SRG for bowls.

I appreciate your willingness to share your skills with us Reed.

Rob Wallace
 
Excellent video but I will agree with Al and Rob. You and I and maybe Al and Rob can turn things with the spindle roughing gouge. I did a whole bowl once to show a friend it could be done. Will I teach it. No. It's just to easy to get one of those wings to take a big bite and then before you can blink something bad happens. I do agree that the fluteless gouges are really nothing more than a scraper without a burr and maybe sharpened at a more acute angle. It's just a bevel rubbing tool at that point. In fact most scrapers probably have a grind about as blunt as your bottom turning gouge.
All of your videos are excellent by the way.
 
Reed, your skill level is both a good and bad thing. Good that you have it, but bad that in my view you needed to state that many of the cuts you were doing are advanced cuts. You also failed to point out exactly where on the tool edge you were putting to the wood and where not to put the other part of the edge. For a person of your skill level its a no brainer. But a newer turner looking at it may not put two and two together and get some nasty stuff. I know cause I did some nasty stuff cause it was not explained to me. And after ripping bowls off the lathe wondered what I did wrong cause it sure seemed I was doing it like I saw. As for the roughing gouge the others have a good point. Stating that you are showing off and explaining just why its recomended to not use it this way would help a newer turner know you have the skill to use it but also why not to do so. I thought the video was fine and well made. But not for any newer turner. My 2c.
 
Part of the reason I show it is because I think, when as instructors we show the correct use of a SRG, it is shown wrong. Please watch Robbo's clip and see who can tell me why he had the big catch. Notice he said he spend 6 hours the night before and couldn't get it to happen. It is not, in my opinion, because the corner of the gouge dug in, and I will explain later. Please note when he starts that he says some thing like 'this is how most normal people will start/do this cut'. Maybe view my clip on the spindle roughing gouge. I probably should do one on the SRG when applied to turning spindles/square spindle stock.

Kelly, I am not sure about the 'showing off' part. Not mentioned in the clip, and I am not trying to show off. If I do that, I turn a 10 by 3 inch bowl in under 5 minutes.

John, the fluteless gouge is NOT a scraper. The bevel angle is the same as my scrapers at about 70 degrees, but the rounded bottom makes it a terrible tool for scraping. Shear scraping, fine. Shear bevel rubbing cuts, fine, but it will tip over if you try to scrape with it.

I do like the way this thread is diverging.

robo hippy
 
robo hippy said:
Al, I want to get you in my booth in Phoenix to play around for a bit if you have the time. My main concern is teaching proper technique with all tools. robo hippy
Click to expand...

Reed,

Let's figure out when/how to spend some time together. I'd like to get to know you beyond your internet persona.
I'm doing a couple of rotations and teaching a youth class so I have 7 rotations free.
I'll have a couple of my gouges.

🙂 once you see what the Ellsworth gouge can do you'll be able to sell all your scrapers and buy a bunch of gouges to take home. -🙂
🙂 I'll teach you how to turn with the gouge 4-6" over the tool rest so you can sell your curved rests too 🙂

Joking aside there are lots of ways to get the same job done. I would like to see you work up close.

I've seen a few chain saw bowls that would look great in the instant gallery.

I sent you a PM early this morning.
Al
 
Twice turned?

A catch with a skew (spindle work) is a catch. A catch with a gouge is a disaster. A catch with a roughing gouge (in bowl work) can be very serious.

Robo, that wood looks wet, in this case is not a demonstration of a twice turned bowl. Everything is easier wet.
 
Al, I almost never look at the notifications here. I need the type that pop up on the screen so I notice. The clips I am putting up are part of what started 2 years or so ago, a DVD entitled 'Weapons of Mass Destruction for Bowl Turning and How to Use Them'. I am one of those 'curious' people, as in there are many ways to skin a cat fish (not cat as is usually said). There are so many different tools in use, and most turning instruction is centered on 'this is how I do it, and these are the tools that I use' rather than 'this is how you use this tool'. Just about every turner out there had a tool that they never use, and a lot of the time it is more because they don't know how, and the fluteless gouge is one of those tools, which is why I did a clip just on it. In all, I have about 8 hours of edited film. I decided it is too much of a pain to distribute a DVD, so I am releasing it in pieces for the turners out there. I do cover how to use just about every tool except skews and parting tools.

No one seems to want to bite on the why Robbo had the catch (oh, by the way, do look at all of his other clips. Excellent). I can do the exact same catch with a standard bowl gouge, or any other tool in my hoard, including scrapers, if I present the tool to the wood the same way he does. The problem, to me is that traditionally, we are taught, for the SRG, to approach the wood with the tool straight into the wood. Start high, and lower till it starts to cut, which is what he does. I tried the exact same cut, at about 100 rpm, and strangely it is a controlled bevel rubbing cut. From Pat's Fan over on Woodnet, 'When sphincter tightening exceeds chuck tightening, you have a problem'. And boy does that cut make my sphincters tighten. Your handle is at about 45 degrees pointing straight up into the spinning wood. This is a controlled cut as long as the bevel is rubbing. Gads, this is making the sphincters pucker just thinking about it. Robbo finally gets it to catch by doing two things. One, he is extending way out off the tool rest. Two, as he is extending way out, he raises the handle. As soon as the bevel comes off the wood, it instantly becomes a scraping cut. One rule with scrapers, and scraping cuts, is that you always raise the handle so if you have a catch, the tool pulls out of the wood rather than digging in deeper. So, Robbo comes off the bevel, and you have a sharp edge pointing into the wood rotation rather than down and out of it. Instant dig in/catch. The center edge catches first, then the wing digs in. The catch that Robbo has is the exact same catch that you have if you come off the bevel when using a skew, but with the skew it skates off to the side. With The SRG on a bowl blank, the tool follows the wood rotation and it goes straight down into the tool rest. I say this after watching it a number of times, and being a bit of a scraper psycho, and having intimate knowledge of how scrapers work. In my other clips I do make sure to say, 'they can be used in bowls, but there are many other tools that work a lot better.

Another problem with teaching proper use of the SRG, is that most of the time it is taught with the handle square to the wood (note, handle, not bevel). You can do all sorts of other cuts with it as John shows in his clips, but I almost always come in with the flutes rolled over on the side, and the handle at a 45 degree angle to the wood. It is just safer. I can actually do all the traditional SRG cuts with a scraper, well with the fluteless gouge as well, though it isn't capable of good roughing cuts because it can't bite in deep enough. If you start to rough out a square blank, handle square to the wood, flutes straight up, it is safe IF the entire flute is in the wood. If you start on one end, and only half of the flute is in the wood, it can roll over into the wood.

Another clip I need to do is some thing like the anatomy of the catch.

Al, I am looking forward to seeing you. I will be Doug Thompson's neighbor. Helps to be where I can get more tools if I need them. Part of the good thing about the symposium is comparing techniques. When I bring my tools to a demo, I always seem to get the 'did you leave any tools at home?' question. Of course, I have to honestly reply 'nope, gots lots more at home'. Thing is different tools work better for some than others. Part of why I try to learn how to use just about all of them. The skew does give me fits though....

robo hippy
 
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I wasn't going to comment on Robo Hippie's video, but since a few others have, I guess I can feel free to add my comment. I was specifically listening to the sound made by his cuts. In a few places, there are two distinct sounds occurring at the same time. The actual cut, and the harmonic response of the bowl. At one point, Reed explained the harmonic response was due to the interior of the bowl already removed. This certainly is a contributing factor, but the roughed bowl is thick enough to respond to technique and sharp tools without that harmonic response.

Since I specialize in thin wall bowls, this harmonic response is a critical factor in my turning. Sharp tools, tool selection, and technique are essential to eliminating, or significantly reducing the harmonic response. The harmonic sound is indicative of the bowl flexing......It can be a very small amount of flex, but any flexing at all will lead to the inability to have a perfect cut. Sometimes species of wood, grain structure, and shape of the bowl will all have varying degrees of impact on the harmonic response. In some cases, a bowl steady placed on the rear of the bowl (for outside cutting) can also contribute to help eliminate the harmonic vibration.

There is nothing as satisfying to a turner, as to listen to the sound of a perfect cut. What you hear at this moment is the sound of the perfectly sharpened tool cutting the wood......and nothing else but the motor of your lathe......it's a sweet sound of success!

Also agree that SRG is inappropriate for bowl turning. I think Robo's purpose was to show that it can be done, and he's right about that. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it's appropriate, safe, or anywhere near as good as a bowl gouge.

ooc
 
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Reed,

The SRG is just a gouge and follows the same laws of physics as other gouges.
If you are never going to get a catch it doesn't matter and you can turn wood with a sharp spoon.

If the wood can drive down on to the tool it will. The simple definition of the catch is wood driving onto the tool. If you are cutting on top of the wood the tool just skates back when the wood drives on to it. If you are under the wood and on a tool rest the wood holds the tool as it drives onto it.
Once this begins a couple things can happen.
A chunk of wood breaks off, the blank breaks free, the tool bends, the tool breaks, the tool rest breaks the banjo breaks and any combination of these.

With a deep fluted bowl gouge the depth of the catch is limited to the length of the bevel because of the thick metal of the bar. The flutes are also narrow when compared to an SRG. Typically 1/2" for the bowl gouge to 1 1/4" for the SRG
Still a lot of wood to break off but that is the most common event and occasionally the blank breaks free.
the tool is a round bar of steel it is very rare for it to break or bend.

The SRG in comparison is much thinner and flute wider and the wood can drive onto the SRG well past the bevel and being a wider chunk a much more severe catch happens. Most SRGs are relatively weak tools made from a bent flat bar of steel and held in the handle by a small tang. These tools often bend and break when subjected to the stress of a bowl catch.

The difference: a catch with a bowl gouge usually results in a bowl 1" smaller in diameter and a catch with an SRG often results in something getting broken.

There is no reason to use an SRG on bowls. A side ground gouge removes wood faster and leaves a cleaner surface.
Why use a more dangerous less appropriate tool?
 
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In my limited experience cutting dry wood is different from cutting wet wood. The techniques and tools may be similar but are not the same and so are the difficulties. When the wood is wet, i.e. Taken from a recently fallen tree the main problem is to turn it quickly otherwise if one goes thin the bowl becomes oval while turning. In this case speed is necessary.
When the wood is dry as in a double turned bowl, shrinking is not a problem but the wood is harder and sharp tools are an absolute necessity. In my opinion sharp gouges used in a classic push cut are superior to anything else since they can be very stable in this way. I also found that a sharp spindle gouge is an excellent tool for finishing the outside of a bowl and with a good hand speed is not too important.
 
I hesitated to join this thread as I'm not even in the same hemisphere with you all in terms of experience and I'm sure I haven't earned the right to even have an opinion on this topic. But, I thought it might be useful to give my perspective anyway and what I took from Reed's tutorial and why I thought it was helpful.

I started turning a little over a year ago and I've been learning from these forums, my club mentors, books and dvds, and especially from YouTube as much as I can.

There is alot for us newbs to take in.

In this hobby, as well as many others, we're told an awful lot of things that we shouldn't do (and thankfully so). For me personally, I trust every one of those warnings and that they are given for very good reason - even though I may not fully understand why.

Seeing and understanding how each of these tools actually work when presented to the wood at different angles and in different ways, really makes it easier for me to understand "why" using a tool like an SRG on a bowl is more risky.

I'm not saying I have ever doubted the warnings - in fact, I have a large SRG in my initial arsenal of tools I acquired when I started turning and I have never used it on anything but a spindle blank because of those warnings being so prevalent.

But I have to admit, seeing it used in a safe manner by a skilled turner helped me understand why it is dangerous in the hands of an unskilled turner like myself. The method of presenting it to the piece safely is so drastically different then the way it is always shown to us when used on spindles. I kind of appreciated seeing that demonstration as it helped really lock the understanding in for me.

I don't know about everyone else. Maybe it's just the way my brain works.

Anyway, I liked seeing it and I thought the entire demonstration was very useful for me to learn more about the differences in these tools and what they can and cannot do.

Kevin
 
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