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Turning Green Wood

R

Richard Wilabee

Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Messages
97
Likes
1
Location
Palm Springs Area
If you are turning green wood and can't get it done would it be best to leave it on the lathe and wrap the bowl and chuck in a trash back to help contain the moisture. If this is the best way could you go 1 or 2 days and then get back to finishing it.

Rich
 
That's way too long in my estimation. It does depend on the wood and what you are turning. Hollow forms and bowls might not fare too well. I have a roll of stretch film from Home Depot -- the stuff used to bundle lumber together. I noticed it one day while looking for a grocery sack to wrap around a green turning and a light bulb came on. I put my lathe in reverse at the slowest speed of 30 RPM (two seconds to make each revolution) and applied tension to tightly stretch the plastic around the piece. This won't work for all situations, but in like it so much that I use it often.

I would be concerned about leaving a green hollow form more than a couple hours in a plastic bag. Maybe some others have tried longer times than I have.
 
in Palm Springs FL, unless you have a constantly air-conditioned workspace - you could wrap it...go use the bathroom...then you better get back to work. 😀
 
Richard Wilabee said:
Good idea on the stretch plastic. How long have you gone using that method.

Rich
Click to expand...

I never intended for it to be a way for me to extend the time that I could wait -- just as a better short term solution compared to a plastic grocery sack. However, I forgot about one hollow form until a few weeks later and by then it was almost dry. It didn't crack, but it probably would not have cracked anyway. The wood was hard maple. If the wood was hackberry, I would guess two hours max.
 
Yes I am in Palm Springs, CA and it does get hot. Last summer I had the garage air conditioned so it is a pleasure to work in there. I guess you are right though it is probably best not to start a project if you can't see it through.

Rich
 
sorry, wrong coast. It's probably a lot drier there than it is in FL.

I would keep a spray bottle handy to keep your wood wet as you turn, and not try to wrap it and go back to it later.
 
Another option would be to brush on a green wood sealer. I've been using CSUSA's green wood sealer for 25 years, and this stuff just works.....and is easy to apply with a brush. No cleaning of the brush necessary, just wipe the bristles and the next time you need to use it, just flex the bristles......good to go for the next application. I keep the brush in a plastic tube with end caps, when not in use.

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/45/4032/Artisan-Woodsealer?term=sealer green wood

Bill is correct......I would not let a green bowl go for more than a couple hours before doing something to seal it. I've had bowls begin to crack in that amount of time. Surprising, but it happens that quick! This doesn't mean it will crack that fast, but it's definitely a gamble whether it will or not. My rule is to rough bowls in one sitting and immediately apply green wood sealer.....always! This is the only thing that will guarantee the least problems with cracking.

ooc
 
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Sealer

Richard,

If you wish to follow Odie's advice, save yourself some money and by the stuff direct from the manufacturer at less than half the price. The original product is called "Anchorseal" and you will find it here: http://www.uccoatings.com/products/anchorseal . Craft Supply and other resellers simply buy it in industrial quantities (drums or totes) and repackage the product under their own brands. I buy it direct in the 5 gal size as I harvest, saw, and air dry my own lumber so logs and board ends get coated liberally to control checking. Note, however, that the product does not prevent the wood from drying, merely slows down and controls it. As stated by others, finish your roughing of a wet blank in one session.
 
Richard Wilabee said:
If you are turning green wood and can't get it done would it be best to leave it on the lathe and wrap the bowl and chuck in a trash back to help contain the moisture. If this is the best way could you go 1 or 2 days and then get back to finishing it. Rich
Click to expand...

Like all the responses don't let the wood dry at all.

Depends on the stage of the turning. Blanks I wrap with stretch wrap and put them in three plastic grocery bags. This is good for about a week.
Any longer and I put them in a thick trash bag and put them in the freezer. The freezer totally suspends the drying. You do need to have an extra moisture barrier to prevent the automatic defrost from drying the wood.

A bowl blank turned on the outside, not hollowed.
3 - 60 minutes Lunch break - wet it with a mister, cover with two plastic bags. Close the bags tightly around the chuck and wedge the tool rest in to hold them shut.

A day - wet with water from a mister, wrap with stretch wrap, two plastic bags and large trash bag.

2 or more days - into the freezer.

Frozen wood turns fine but it can be unpleasant to getting hit with frozen chips and the Frozen wood seems to dull tools a tiny bit faster.
I would take the wood out of the freezer 6 hours before turning to let it thaw.
 
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Richard Wilabee said:
Yes I am in Palm Springs, CA and it does get hot. Last summer I had the garage air conditioned so it is a pleasure to work in there. I guess you are right though it is probably best not to start a project if you can't see it through.

Rich
Click to expand...
Rich,
Turn when you can. Generally I turn my green wood pieces in one session. With more experience the sessions get shorter. I can finish turn a 16" diameter natural edge crotch bowl in 30-40 minutes
I rough turn a 14" bowl in about 20 minutes. I am slow compared to lots of turners.
Hollowing taks significantly longer.
7" diameter 5" high natural edge HF 20 minutes.
12" diameter x 7"high HF 90 minutes.
Completing pieces faster is not something you set as a goal. Your goal is using the tools more effectively. As the tools move with more purpose and fluidity the turning takes less time and has a better surface.
If I am in the shop for just 15 minutes I doodle with wood. Practice shapes, turn a goblet, turn a ball.... These are fun little things I often never finish just pretty fire starters.....

Have fun,
Work safely
 
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Thanks for all the tips they are very helpful. Let me ask another question that is on a similar note. I have never been able to harvest my own wood here in the Palm Springs, CA area. Maybe I will try and find out if there is somewhere that I can drive for a couple of hours. If so I might give it a try. I have been getting all my wood on the internet which is sealed in wax and it is expensive. It usually says it has 17 to 33 percent moisture. If you harvest a tree do you turn right away or do you let some of the moisture evaporate. I also have some waxed blanks that are now dry and it is sure harder to turn but I don't have to let it dry turn to finish take me time it doesn't matter. Most of the blanks are square and I round them on the bandsaw. Is it possible to put moisture back in to the wood by soaking it in water or should I just continue to turn them dry. I took a break from turning for a year and that is when they dried out on me. During that time I had no air conditioning in the garage/workshop so the summers here in Palm Springs can get to 117 degrees. This last summer when I decided to start turning again I had the garage air conditioned and what a difference. One last thing are their fairly accurate moisture meters that aren't to expensive or is there really no need for one.

Rich
 
Richard Wilabee said:
Thanks for all the tips they are very helpful. Let me ask another question that is on a similar note. I have never been able to harvest my own wood here in the Palm Springs, CA area. Maybe I will try and find out if there is somewhere that I can drive for a couple of hours. If so I might give it a try. I have been getting all my wood on the internet which is sealed in wax and it is expensive. It usually says it has 17 to 33 percent moisture. If you harvest a tree do you turn right away or do you let some of the moisture evaporate. I also have some waxed blanks that are now dry and it is sure harder to turn but I don't have to let it dry turn to finish take me time it doesn't matter. Most of the blanks are square and I round them on the bandsaw. Is it possible to put moisture back in to the wood by soaking it in water or should I just continue to turn them dry. I took a break from turning for a year and that is when they dried out on me. During that time I had no air conditioning in the garage/workshop so the summers here in Palm Springs can get to 117 degrees. This last summer when I decided to start turning again I had the garage air conditioned and what a difference. One last thing are their fairly accurate moisture meters that aren't to expensive or is there really no need for one.

Rich
Click to expand...
Rich,

Phase 1: "Let your fingers do the walking" in your local phone book's colored (in one shade or another) pages where you will find a number of listings under "tree service" or similar. All you need do is call them and ask a) if they have a stump yard you can scrounge a piece of two, or b) if you can meet them when they're cutting trees. These guy are happy to give the stuff away.

Phase 2: Take the wood home, turn the business owner a nice salad bowl, and present to him as a thank you.

Phase 3: Get an answering machine to handle the tree services guys' calls to come get some wood.

Caution: I made the mistake of saying "Sure you can drop it off in my driveway." The following afternoon a flat-bed 10-wheeler with crane backed up my driveway and unloaded 25 20' logs of walnut, cherry, maple, and some others that were too big (20-30" diameter) to go in their on-site chipper. So, be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.
 
Mark those are some great ideas. I just hope we have some trees out here in the Palm Springs area that will look halfway decent. I don't think we have any of that nice wood they dumped in your driveway 🙂

Rich
 
Richard Wilabee said:
Mark those are some great ideas. I just hope we have some trees out here in the Palm Springs area that will look halfway decent. I don't think we have any of that nice wood they dumped in your driveway 🙂

Rich
Click to expand...

Rich, People have been planting trees wherever they put down roots across this country for the last 200+ years. I've driven across most every State in the Union and haven't found a place yet where people live that didn't have a variety of native and "imported" trees growing. They may not be exotics, but you'll be surprised what can come out of that "scrub down by the wash." Adverse growing conditions often result in highly figured wood as the tree struggles to grow in its environment. Seek and ye may find 😀
 
Richard Wilabee said:
Thanks for all the tips they are very helpful. Let me ask another question that is on a similar note. I have never been able to harvest my own wood here in the Palm Springs, CA area. Maybe I will try and find out if there is somewhere that I can drive for a couple of hours. If so I might give it a try. I have been getting all my wood on the internet which is sealed in wax and it is expensive. It usually says it has 17 to 33 percent moisture. If you harvest a tree do you turn right away or do you let some of the moisture evaporate. I also have some waxed blanks that are now dry and it is sure harder to turn but I don't have to let it dry turn to finish take me time it doesn't matter. Most of the blanks are square and I round them on the bandsaw. Is it possible to put moisture back in to the wood by soaking it in water or should I just continue to turn them dry. I took a break from turning for a year and that is when they dried out on me. During that time I had no air conditioning in the garage/workshop so the summers here in Palm Springs can get to 117 degrees. This last summer when I decided to start turning again I had the garage air conditioned and what a difference. One last thing are their fairly accurate moisture meters that aren't to expensive or is there really no need for one. Rich
Click to expand...

When I get fresh cut blanks, I like to turn them a soon as I can. Either as rough outs for twice turned bowls, hollow forms, or natural edge bowls.

The wood starts to change colors and after a few weeks the sapwood will have lost its luster.
That said I can't turn all the wood i get so I do keep some in half logs about 3 feet long to turn later. These I seal on the enf Grain with wood sealer and stack them in a shady place.

Often I never turn some of this wood as newer stuff comes along. The old wood gets to be fire wood.

As Mark said much of the west has few if any native hardwoods but many of the yard trees are excellent hardwoods for turning.
Many towns have planted trees too. And they can be quite old.

Good luck
 
Mark Mandell said:
Rich, People have been planting trees wherever they put down roots across this country for the last 200+ years. I've driven across most every State in the Union and haven't found a place yet where people live that didn't have a variety of native and "imported" trees growing. They may not be exotics, but you'll be surprised what can come out of that "scrub down by the wash." Adverse growing conditions often result in highly figured wood as the tree struggles to grow in its environment. Seek and ye may find 😀
Click to expand...

I spent a little time at Edwards on a flight test program so I am familiar with how it looked about twenty years ago in Palm Springs. It seems that most of the trees were cactus since this is the middle of a real honest to goodness desert. I doubt that the water situation is any better now.
 
Bill,
I did a couple street views from Google earth.

It is a green desert

Lots of Palms and large shrubs that would have natural,edge bowls.
I don't car much for turning Palm but a lot of folks here turn t and it can be spectacular in a hollow form.
Most folks glue on real wood for the base and use wood for a collar at the top.


A few trees. The 3 trees I spotted were 40-50 ft tall and 18" diameter.
Might be thicker but I could not see the first 10 feet because of a hedge.

Not going to find as many trees as we have in the east but there are some.
 
Mark Mandell said:
Rich,

If you really want to BUY wood, check out Tule Timber. Almost in you back yard http://www.tulepeaktimber.com/site/main?page=Home They gotta be gettin' the stuff somewheres.

😉
Click to expand...


I am about 1 hour from the Forest in the Santa Rosa Mountains. Hwy 74 out of Palm Desert heads up there. When I go up there I see mostly Big Pine Trees. I just checked out that Tule Peak Timber and it is up in the Santa Rosa Mountains I've just never taken the 371 cut off from Hwy 74. Not sure how you found that place Mark. That might be a great find for me. It says they have all kinds of wood and maybe they have some pieces of log I could purchase. I could also get there in about an hour or so. I think I will call them. It might snow there in the winter but I still have plenty of time left to pay them a visit. Do you think they will know if there is still moisture in the wood or do I need to take a moisture meter. If so is there a moisture meter that doesn't cost an arm and a leg that would be accurate or just take my chances and see what happens.

Thanks

Rich
 
Finding them

1. Get a zip code somewhere in Palm Springs
2. G'won over to WoodFinder.com, owned and run by my good friend Ellis Walentine who owns/runs WoodCentral. The link is on the WC home page.
3. Input the zip in the dialog box, put a species in the search box, and pick a distance from the drop-down menu.
4. Hit "search".
It will search for all sources within up to 200 miles radius.

Doesn't get too much easier than that. 😀
 
Richard Wilabee said:
I forgot to ask. If I can get some logs is there for the lack of a better word a formula for how long I should get the wood. Thanks Rich
Click to expand...

There are lots of answers to this.
Mostly the largest you can move and store is about the right size.

I try to not get pieces much larger than Incan move. 🙂

Whole logs 8-20 feet long work well. When you want to cut blanks cut 4" off the end that will be cracked.
Then cut blanks. The whole log is a good way to keep wood for a couple of months.
But you need lots of space and a tractor to move them. I have a couple of friends who work this way.

Most of the logs I get are in the. 12-30" diameter
What I generally do is cut logs into 2 and three foot lengths and rip those in half through the center of the growth rings.
When I cross cut I am looking a features such as straight log, healed limb scars, branches, crotches, hollows, odd contours,
When I rip I am planning on positioning for one really good blank based on the symmetry of the grain, curvature of the log, contours of the log.
I put wood sealer on the endgrain. I will plan on loosing 2" off the ends of these 1/2 logs due to end checking.
So a 3 foot half log will have two 14" diameter bowl blanks.

When I get a 4-5 foot diameter log then all the cuts are much different and it is more cutting slabs and blocks

Basically if you have an 15" diameter log you can get 13" diameter bowl blanks from it and get 12.5"finished bowls.
I would do the cross cut a little over 31" long this gives
26" for the two 13" bowl blanks, 4" for end checks and an inch to cut between the bowl blanks.


Al
 
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Sounds like you can get some really huge logs. The length is up to you, but just avoid pieces that are already cut to fireplace length or already seasoned for the fireplace. Tell them that you are a woodturner and prefer wood that is very recently cut. I prefer to coat all cut surfaces with Anchorseal because all cuts go cross grain to some extent unless it has been split.
 
Be careful. I left a partially turned wet red oak blank on my lathe wrapped in plastic for a few days and the chuck and jaws rusted an got pitted. it was no fun cleaning them up.
 
Oak tannins and extractives are notoriously corrosive to iron alloys. Not that slopping wet maple won't cause rust, but oak, especially red and black, will put a hurtin on iron-bearing surfaces, especially when fresh green. There was a time when all I had to turn was red and black oak, and it was a constant fight to keep my lathe's bed from getting brown, even as I was turning the piece. I finally took to putting stretch wrap on the bed under the piece to protect it from the extractives that would splatter as I was turning the green blanks, and would also wipe on phosphoric acid from time to time to neutralize the oxidation.
 
Bill mentioned "shrink wrap". I agree - wouldn't leave home without it. Actually pallet wrap is the stuff - you can order from U-Line.

I start with the wettest log possible, turn the outside to final shape, wrap in multiple wraps of the pallet wrap, and then proceed with the hollowing. I use pallet wrap on each and every piece I do - works great. Sometimes I can't do the hollowing the same day or the day after - I've found that the shrink-wrap will contain the moisture and allow me the time needed.

All that said, if you're turning logs you are going to get some cracks - if you abandon every piece with a crack you won't finish many. After the roughed piece dries, inject epoxy in the cracks. I've found that 300/21 from Aero Marine is a lower viscosity that can be injected with a #22 hypodermic needle or thickened as needed for larger anomalies. I've found that a dark brown dyed epoxy compliments most woods.

Of course humidity makes life easier if you're a woodturner - turning in Palm Springs would involve a different set of variables. However, a process of: rough / wrap / hollow / boil / dry for 6-mos / epoxy like crazy / re-turn / finish will yield great results.

Good luck and have fun,
John
 
I use System-3 epoxy dye with Aero Marine 300/21 which is their low viscosity. Everything is mixed on a jeweler's scale. The process is:
- pour 5-grams resin into mouthwash cup (one that does not have wax on the inside)
- dip a veneer stir-stick into the brown and another into black and mix into the resin - the combination gives a rich dark brown
- pour 2.2 or 2.3-grams into the colored resin. While Aero Marine says 2/1 to make life easier, the exact ratio is 100/44 by weight. A teeny bit over with part-B is not a problem as long as you don't go over 1/2.
- the thin mixture will run into cracks - I sometimes fill a #22 hypodermic which works really good under bark, in punky areas and small cracks.
- I mix colloidal silica as a thickner and apply on top. The beauty of the combination is that the dye seems to permeate the colloidal silica and give a saturated color - no white of gray specs.

My preference is to apply lots of epoxy on the dried rough (6%MC) - I make no attempt at being neat - the stuff runs everwhere. If I have a larger hole to fill on the side, I make a dam with blue masking tape. Sometimes I apply increasingly thick epoxy and build to 1/4" and then put tape over the wet epoxy.

At least 24-hours later I turn the epoxy off. The low viscosity does not stain except on ash - next piece of ash (I know - in my dreams) I'll use clear for the cracks and colored Timbermate putty overlayed with clear epoxy in the larger fills.

If you don't have a jewelers scale consider getting one. A good Sartorius brand from Itin Scales cost $130. It will be the best money you ever spent - you'll be thanking me and sending lavish gifts of appreciation (I like D-Way gouges).
John
 
System Three

John Tisdale said:
I use System-3 epoxy dye with Aero Marine 300/21 which is their low viscosity. Everything is mixed on a jeweler's scale. The process is:
- pour 5-grams resin into mouthwash cup (one that does not have wax on the inside)
- dip a veneer stir-stick into the brown and another into black and mix into the resin - the combination gives a rich dark brown
- pour 2.2 or 2.3-grams into the colored resin. While Aero Marine says 2/1 to make life easier, the exact ratio is 100/44 by weight. A teeny bit over with part-B is not a problem as long as you don't go over 1/2.
- the thin mixture will run into cracks - I sometimes fill a #22 hypodermic which works really good under bark, in punky areas and small cracks.
- I mix colloidal silica as a thickner and apply on top. The beauty of the combination is that the dye seems to permeate the colloidal silica and give a saturated color - no white of gray specs.

My preference is to apply lots of epoxy on the dried rough (6%MC) - I make no attempt at being neat - the stuff runs everwhere. If I have a larger hole to fill on the side, I make a dam with blue masking tape. Sometimes I apply increasingly thick epoxy and build to 1/4" and then put tape over the wet epoxy.

At least 24-hours later I turn the epoxy off. The low viscosity does not stain except on ash - next piece of ash (I know - in my dreams) I'll use clear for the cracks and colored Timbermate putty overlayed with clear epoxy in the larger fills.

If you don't have a jewelers scale consider getting one. A good Sartorius brand from Itin Scales cost $130. It will be the best money you ever spent - you'll be thanking me and sending lavish gifts of appreciation (I like D-Way gouges).
John
Click to expand...

Don't need a $130 scale. I got a digital (Chinese) scale that does up to 100 grams (3.5 oz) for epoxy. I mix 44/100 up to 3 oz. Mixes over that amount can just be mixed 2-1(light) and be fine. Scale cost $15 on Amazon. Just for laughs I weighed a gold wedding band and had the weight confirmed at a jeweler down to 0.01 gram.
 
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