Turners without mechanical experience

[john lucas]

I brought this up on another thread but I was wondering how many turners out there got into turning without any previous woodworking or a mechanical background.
I ask this because I teach and often run into people who are taking the workshop and have never done anything mechanical or have never done any woodworking. This makes me step back and look at my methods and even how I say things because some of the simple things that those of us who grew up working on cars and had access to wood tools take for granted.
I've had people who don't understand that a lathe in reverse will unwind the chuck or if the tailstock quill falls out have no real idea how to put it back in. These aren't ignorant people they have just never had to do anything mechanical. They actually learn quite well because they also don't have bad habits learned from someone who learned without proper instruction.
The same is true when discussing wood and how it moves, grows, dries etc.
Have you all run into this? I think it's important because we sometimes assume we can just tell them to buy a chainsaw to cut up blanks and they may have never even run a hedge trimmer.
What are your opinions and if your one of those people how can we help you learn.

 

[jimbob91577]

I got into turning as a hobby. My other life consists of software engineering. My prior WW experience was in High School but was limited to 1 semester.

Outside of that I was schooled in CAD Drafting and Residential Housing development. Part of my experience included doing some construction work such as framing walls and laying concrete.

So I can design my way out of a box. Regarding the other thread - I simply don't have the resources, and to some extent the skill, to build the jig I need - I certainly have the ambition to learn though. In my situtaion, I'm going to have to seek out someone with the resources and the ability to build what I need. I did this when I had someone build my sharpening jig for my bench grinder.

 

[Richard Baker]

Good question John. Judging by the many posts seen during the past few years, the level of experience and level of available resources both vary from almost zero to almost ten. One obvious example might be an experienced and skilled machinist who no longer has those tools available to him/her. One tries to guess the level of understanding and capability and reply in a fashion that will communicate effectively without being insulting or demeaning.

Another example - I have posted questions on a computer forum a couple of times, and the replies were a total mystery to me. Had to write back and plead to have it explained in tiny baby steps, virtually one keystroke at a time.

 

[Garmar]

John; to a great measure you have asked and maybe answered a question of how to grow the interest in woodworking(woodturning). Seems to me that if one doesn't have tooling or mentors(neighbors, friends, or associates) to instruct, urge, and inform a good potential is lost. That's another reason to review and teach basic fundamentals via our Journal. GREAT QUESTION John...

 

[Carole Valentine]

Nope. No real woodworking experience ( a few months trying to learn until I discovered the lathe) and certainly no mechanical (or electrical) experience. If something goes wrong with any of my machines, I am pretty much sunk. My saving grace is that I have a pretty logical mind...or at least I used to!😕

 

[Charlie Knighton]

turner's life experience

my turner's life experience is

without any previous woodworking or a mechanical background

on top of that not much biology, and the required art history class i had to take spring semester as a senior was barely attended and luckly the professor gave me a D---,

i had built a couple of bookcases that did not fall down, but i really do not like power saws, but do use a chain saw when i have to. i have been turning about 3 years and find the many different aspects of woodturner fulfilling. i started woodturning with a basic course through a community college (course tax deductable and i am a plank owner of the progarm) and am on my 2nd lathe. (ps i have a delta lathe for sale). these forums have been very helpful as i seesaw up the learning curve, while having a spring show and winter craft fair has given me a time frame in which i need to produce and improve. both events are mixed media and mixed craft which has impacted and influenced my turnings.

various regional and one national symposium have been very helpful and i hope to continue to attend.

 

[Bill Boehme]

John,

Your observations led me to think about what I perceive as an apparent broader trend away from mechanical aptitude and associated problem solving skills. As an example, before I retired a few years ago, I spent my career as an engineer and was the manager over a group of about 100 other engineers. During my last few years as a manager, I began to notice a shift away from mechanical aptitude and technical curiosity as motivating forces leading new college graduates into the profession. Apparently, those old fashioned motivating forces were being replaced to some extent by the attraction of money.

Personally, I have no fear of digging into anything mechanical or electrical to either repair or "improve" it. I have been woodworking for many years and after retiring, I used a Rockler's gift certificate to purchase a lathe. It wasn't too long before I had completely disassembled the lathe and was on my way to "improving" it. Your question is somewhat scary: what if I did not understand how things worked or how to go about troubleshooting something or even designing and building something myself.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Nothing prevents anyone from acquiring knowledge except themselves. If they don't, they will have to rely on magic incantations, third-hand misinterpretations or maybe the government to get them out of trouble.

If they have an education they know where and how to acquire knowledge, and a framework to hang it on. Trouble is, we speak of "giving" people an education, which is impossible. It's a participatory sport. Helps if they can read, which is becoming a lost art, and even more if they do.

It's knowledge of Chemistry, not ingestion of chemicals that broadens our minds, but you do have to have a bit of curiosity and spend some effort rather than streetcorner cash to get there. Oprah show can't give you everything you need to survive, no matter what she or Phil think.

I can be a bit more charitable when I realize that my generation was still able to fix a car with a wrench and a rag, not a diagnostic module and reprogramming. The present crop hasn't had much opportunity to take apart a car, watch, or even a frog they way we had. Any wonder they lack knowledge?

 

[john lucas]

MM You are dead on about repair of current products. We used to repair our TV's by going to the drugstore to check all the tubes (remember that). I quit repairing my own car. I got tired of laying the driveway trying to fix it during the weekend and then trying to find someone to haul you off to get the parts that you weren't 100% sure were bad because you can't check all the electronics.
Heck I tried to repair the toaster the other day and there was a circuit board in there with an obvious bad part. Had to throw it away. Just about everything is like that anymore. Even if you have some electronic skill you can't find the wiring diagram. I tried to fix a power supply for a jet mini VS lathe. After many phone calls I found out the tech's don't repair them. They toss them and put another in. I never found a schematic.
I do repair just about everything from plumbing to electronics. I have kept our machines running at work and I'm currently learning metal so I can repair or modify my machines.
I got into woodworking during college out of necessity but also because my Grandfather was an excellent woodworking hobbiest. I also had an introduction to woodworking in highschool but all it really left was a memory, nothing worth keeping.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

turner's life experience

something else to consider besides previous woodworking or a mechanical background are weather a person is right brain/left brain and weather the teacher is right brain/left brain. i attended Cindy Drozda's and David Nittmann rotation and they discussed Right Brain/Left Brain: Creating Signature Work. What was not discussed is how a right brain turner teaches a left brain pupil or visa versa. 😕😱😀

 

[Ron Sardo]

Something to ponder

I interview people at times to work in my business. I give all interviewees a 12" rule and ask, "Show me 3-3/8" on this rule". Better than 80% have no idea how to read a rule.

 

[Griesbach]

John, if I understand you question correctly you're asking about dealing with a student, group or individual, that have no prior experience in the subject matter...that being woodturning. In my teaching experiences I have always sat down with the student(s) prior to starting anything and had an informal (to them) chat. I'm trying to find out their motivation for the subject matter, their prior experience if any and, hopefully, some insight into their skills and abilities. This allows me to massage the material to the individual and sets the stage for a free flow of dialog.

Is this any help?

 

[Truffuls]

I have the knowledge but...

I have some knowledge or basic understanding of woodwork and I've been a tinkerer and grease monkey since growing up in my father's gas/repair station. I'm very mechanically inclined, so much so that I usually end up rescuing my "Masters in Mechanical Engineering" husband.

I lack the confidence and quick mathematical knowledge to attempt jigs, dove tails, furniture making and machining. And, my non-turning tools really suck.

Every time I get an idea I'm hindered because I don't have the tools or confidence.

Hubby won't let me get a MAPP torch so I can't do any tool making but I'm packed full to the brim with ideas.

Frustrating to say the least.

I'd kill to spend a week with Mark St. Leger so I could get my act together. He's a genius and a very sweet guy.

 

[john lucas]

Cyril You have to do that for all of my classes. They found out that they can't get the classes to fill if they call them intermediate or advanced so I end up with advanced people and raw beginners in just about every class. I have to find out early who knows what and I'm always prepared to give the advanced person a little extra.
Ron I use to teach electronics and copier repair and then found them a job. I had to give them one of the tests that asks questions like which of these is a screwdriver , and simple math like 4x4 and questions on ruler fractions like you posted. It was appalling how bad some of them do. Fortunately I found some good people and found them good jobs. I loved that job but it ended and ended up in this photo position.

 

[Frank Kobilsek]

John,
I studied Manufacturing engineering in College. I'll never forget a Processes class I took that included a section on welding. The instructor stuffed the class into a welding lab one afternoon for a demostration. As he was about to strike an arc, myself and another farm boy where completely shocked as our class mates stood there looking at the piece. We both shouted Stop and had to explain that watching the arc would burn their retina.
Frank

 

[john lucas]

Frank I was a Phys Ed major but took the machining and welding classes. I am very glad I did. Now almost 30 years later I have a metal lathe, mill and as of last weekend a decent welder. I'm having a ball learning to use these things again. I'm still saving for a gas torch. I have a forge but I have to haul all the stuff outside and fire up the forge so it takes the better part of a day to do any blacksmithing. I do enjoy it however.

 

[Bob Hadley]

As someone who grew up around machines it have always found it distressing how many people have no exposure to basic mechanics, let alone hands-on instruction or training.

For example (using cars): is not such a person more likely to run their tires bald, delay routine maintenance and ignore clues to impending breakdowns?

And when their engine blows up because they never checked, changed or added oil since the day the got the car, they stand in bewildered amazement of their own misfortune!

Seems to me that, at the least, basic exposure to how stuff is made and how stuff works should be standard curriculum in grade school. For boys and girls.

Such basic exposure would benefit them for life.

 

[Bill Donahue]

You're talking about me! I have absolutely no mecanical experience; have never used a hedge trimmer, usually run my tires bald, never check the oil, etc. After I took the tests to become a Navy pilot, my score on mechanical appitude was so bad that the interviewer asked "haven't you ever tried to fix a bike?"

When I decided to take up woodturning I didn't know what a lathe or a bandsaw was. Saw a news segment about a woodturner, went to his shop to buy my wife a Christmas gift, he showed me how he worked, and I decided on the spot to try it

The only problems I've had after taking three classes at Woodcraft and two classes at John Campbell were with terminology. After a year of woodturning I still have to stop and think when I hear things like - bevel, chamfer, jig, end-grain, etc. Fortunately, every instructor I've had was more than understanding. If a person is really interested in the outcome, woodturning can be enjoyed by everyone.

 

[john lucas]

Bill That's the kind of things we need to know as instructors. what you need to know. As someone who has a lot of mechanical skills and since I'm a knife and blade nut have studied how tools cut quite closely. It's very easy for me to take things for granted and not give out the information you need.

 

[Bernie Weishapl]

I grew up on a farm so was fairly mechanical minded. Could fix or weld about anything. Have been in electronics for 43 yrs so can fix about anything electronic. I taught electronics for 10 yrs during this time. We had a 6 week math class and I was amazed at how many like was said couldn't read a ruler, couldn't multiply or divide in there head. Everybody had to have calculators. I did some woodworking of small things before I started turning. I am one of those show me a picture or show how to make something, I can.

What amazes me even more today is people can't make change when you give them $5 for a $3.29 purchases especially if they don't have a register to tell them. How many can't change a tire. I remember when my granddad ask me to get him a plus screwdriver or a minus screwdriver. We have engineers and tech's at work that don't have a clue what those are.

 

[john lucas]

Wow it's been a long time since I've heard them called plus and minus screwdrivers. Cross point, phillips, and flat blades still confuse some people.

 

[Bernie Weishapl]

LOL John. Yep I haven't heard that since granddad passed away.

 

[MichaelMouse]

The only problems I've had after taking three classes at Woodcraft and two classes at John Campbell were with terminology. After a year of woodturning I still have to stop and think when I hear things like - bevel, chamfer, jig, end-grain, etc. Fortunately, every instructor I've had was more than understanding. If a person is really interested in the outcome, woodturning can be enjoyed by everyone.

My first handout to new EMT students is a list of basic Greek and Latin anatomical/physiological words. First to turners should be something similar. This is pretty abbreviated, but it's a start. http://hometown.aol.com/dschwdturn/qew/qqnomenclature.html

Still remember the plaint of a normally bright and cooperative student as I helped her review her vocabulary for Biology class. "Why do we have to learn these big words? Why can't they use words we know? " No answer except to remind her that calling a dog a domesticated mammal was two words and more confusion.

Why was the IA teacher helping with Biology vocabulary? Lots of teachable Physics and Mathematics moments in the shop, hardly any Biology. Only reason I can give is that I was willing to answer a question. Never said "look in the book," because I had no idea if the answer was even in there.

 

[hockenbery]

John,
Great topic.
One of the real challenges with any of my classes is finding a common vocabulary. I especially notice this when I assist foreign instructors. I recall one using an analogy of a scythe ( I interjected that he and I were the only two in the room that had ever held one)

My experience with "intermediate students" even those who have been turning for several years is that I should not expect them to know the meaning of common terms such as:
endgrain, facegrain, long grain, short grain ,uphill, downhill, bevel, flute,

Some how we/they get by with fuzzy concepts that and do pretty good work in spite of the deficiency in vocabulary.

Reading a rule is a dead art. When i tell a kids class to make a 3/4 inch long tenon on their gavel handle at least a 3rd will ask which mark to use.

Happy Turning
Al

 

[john lucas]

a3/4" tenon. Let's see that would be 1/2" + 4 of those little marks. 🙂

 

[Richard Baker]

Naw. It's .500 plus four little marks.

Can visualize this same type discussion on a "computer" forum. Been there. "Please explain it in tiny baby steps, one keystroke at a time".

Communication is a *****.

 

[Anthony Yakonick]

I can be a bit more charitable when I realize that my generation was still able to fix a car with a wrench and a rag, not a diagnostic module and reprogramming. The present crop hasn't had much opportunity to take apart a car, watch, or even a frog they way we had. Any wonder they lack knowledge?

I wish it was that easy, you have to spend a few days at my or any dealership.

 

[Ron Sardo]

John,
Reading a rule is a dead art. When i tell a kids class to make a 3/4 inch long tenon on their gavel handle at least a 3rd will ask which mark to use.
Al

So is reading a analog clock.

Sad

 

[MichaelMouse]

So is reading a analog clock.

Sad

They'll learn as they get older. Presbyopia makes digitals illegible until you find your glasses. You need to know what time it is right away, even in the middle of the night, because your partner is sure to ask....

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

You guys are scaring me. It can't really be that bad............can it?

Ed

 

[Ron Sardo]

You guys are scaring me. It can't really be that bad............can it?

Ed

It's true, kids can't read an analog clock, they depend on a digital clock.

Not only that, now kids have only 8 planets, when I was a kid, we had 9! 😱

 

[Bill Boehme]

You guys are scaring me. It can't really be that bad............can it?

Ed

I was just about to post the same thing!😱

 

[rsser]

Get out several basic books on woodturning and while you'll find some consistency in language you'll also find a lot of variation.

Darlow's Fundamentals book is one I find the hardest not having a tech background - he uses a consistent technical language for tool presentation and handling that repays study.

On the other hand, with Raffan, while it's an easy read there are some descriptions of presentation and handling that are so unclear I can't get them despite multiple readings.

Most of what I've been taught face to face is recipe knowledge ... without learning about the underlying principles of ways of shearing wood fibres with pointy things. Maybe that's common, which is why so many posts are qualified 'this works for me'.

 

[Bill Turpin]

A Woman's Point of View (long)

This response is from my wife, Nettie, who is a member of the AAW but does not usually frequent this forum.

I don't remember a time when I didn't enjoy making things and trying to figure out how things work.

I didn't grow up around tool or woodworking. My father only built a couple of things (a couple of kit bookcases and a backyard A-frame swing) that I can remember. He never worked on his car except to put chains on during the winter months.When my brother began tinkering with his car, he didn't want his older sister hanging around with him and his friends.

My favorite childhood toys were Loncoln Logs, Tinker Toys, American Blocks and my brother's Erector Set. Now move forward nearly 50 years to my introduction to woodturning. Although I feel that I'm very mechanical for a woman, I lack experience and instruction in the use and maintenance of tools. I have a good library of woodturning books and have access to extensive video resources through our turning club. But a photo in a book or a brief explanation on a DVD don't substitute for hands-on experience.

My husband, who has turned 1 1/2 years longer than me, grew up working with tools. He can work his way through many situations that styme me. When I encounter a new problem that I can't solve on my own and go to him for help, he immediately sees his way to a solution. Explaining his solution to me is generally frustrating for both of us. He doesn't comprehend why I can't visualize his remedy and I lack the experience to explain to his understanding what I don't comprehend.

When I attend a class, I need the instructor to be prepared to present everything in a step-by-step manner if needed. I remember the teacher of one of the first classes I took saying something about a jam chuck. I didn't know what a jam chuck was, let alone how to make or use one. Being the only woman in the class made me afraid to ask and appear stupid.

I enjoy turning. Wood is an amazing medium. I've learned a lot in nearly 4 years at the lathe, but I have a lot more to learn.

I think a teacher should assume nothing! Be prepared to ask your students about their previous experience with every underlying technique involved in acquiring the skill you wish to impart. You probably won't have to explain everyting to every student, but with that preparation you won't be shocked when someone asks, "What is a glue block?" or "How do you use a 4-prong drive center?"

Nettie Turpin

 

[john lucas]

Thanks Nette Good response. I always try to tell my students that there aren't any stupid questions except those not asked. There were probably several other people who were also afraid to ask what a jam chuck is. You would have done them a favor by asking. I do know what you mean though. Been there done that.