Turned item or carved item?

[Wilford Bickel]

I am wondering how others here feel about this topic, not trying to start a "war" just wanting an elightening conversation!

At what point does a turned item that is carved become a carving not a turning? I will admit that you would call me a purist in my turning - I love the smooth shapes and classic designs. I am not interested in carving and wonder if our Association is putting too much emphasis on carving and not what I consider true turning talents (This is based on the magazine as I have not been to a symposium - hope to in 2006 when it comes to Lousiville!).

Much of what I see now is to me a carving. Someone spent much more time carving on the item then they did turning it and I question classifying such an item as a "turning".

Should there be another classification for the items that are a combination of turning and carving. Should items that have added carvings compete against turned only items for awards or should they be in seperate competitions.

Food for thought - I look forward to your comments!

Wilford

 

[john lucas]

Wilford
It may be just me but I simply don't worry about it. For me it is the piece that's important not how it was achieved. I try to accept the work because I like what it says or how it looks. Sometimes I like the piece simply because it is turned. I can appreciate the skill required to turn the piece or the artists use of the wood and it's patterns. You get the same response when you paint a piece or burn it. Some like it some don't
I've always been a fan of Tod Hoyer and Louise Hibbert's work. This is highly decorated or textured work that I wouldn't necessarily call carved but is definitely more than turned.
I love Clay Fosters work and it is definitely leaning toward carving or sometimes not on the lathe at all.
I think the only time this should really be considered is for competition sake. If the rules say some or all of it must be turned that should answer that question.
Most importantly I think is to have fun doing what you do. If you like it then it really doesn't matter if someone thinks you carve too much on it.

 

[foot sore]

It seems to me that turning, carving, routing, etc., are techniques used in achieving some end result (a bowl for instance). The end result isn't a turning or a carving - it's a bowl. Which techniques I use for achieving the end result shouldn't really matter - except maybe to other curious woodworkers. 😀

But, does Wilford have a point in regards to this Association putting to much emphasis on carving vs strictly turning? It is specifically a woodturning association.

I am not interested in carving and wonder if our Association is putting too much emphasis on carving and not what I consider true turning talents (This is based on the magazine as I have not been to a symposium - hope to in 2006 when it comes to Lousiville!).

I am a newbie to turning (and this forum), so haven't been involved long enough to say, and I haven't seen the magazine he mentions. I certainly haven't seen any such trend in this forum... and I have been lurking for some time! 🙄

Paul

 

[hockenbery]

art, woodart, woodturning

I agree with Johns reply. This is an ongoing discussuion/issue.

What about turnings in other materials or manufactured wood products?

There are many superb turnings with very little wood.
How much stone, epoxy, synthetic ivory, metal, plastic, resins, seeds, seed pods, fibers etc... before it is no longer wood art? do palms have wood in them?

Our local art group has a just "paper show" every year. Someday I may actually turn a bowl from a phonebook and enter it. Would that be a woodturning???

Techniques and materials are less important than the final work.

happy turning,
Al

 

[Duane]

Just turned or value added

The above are all good thoughts. And here is more
How about those who use routers to make some sort of design on or in a turned piece. Thy might as well use a computer driven lathe. Just punch in a program and let it do its thing. Or how about Sand Blasting or wire brush textureing. Oh! I know. Segmented turnings. They aren't real turnings either. Most of the work on these pieces is done before it goes on the lathe insead of after like carved or sculpted pieces.
At this years symposium in Orlando Most of the pieces in the instant gallery were either carved, sculpted, dyed, textured, or glued. My buddy who went with me said of the instant gallery that as a turner of only two or three years he felt like he had been left behind. He also said in order for him to have any success at turning he would have to become proficient at each of these as well as photography. What happend to just turning wood.
I don't know what the answer is either. But I think as an organization we must figure it out . And fast. Before very many have lost their way.

Anyway just some of my thoughts. Even a blind sow can root up a acorn once in awhile.

Duane

 

[dinyarchavda]

Response to Duane

Duane:

You said: Even a blind sow can root up a acorn once in awhile.


True, but it takes talent to determine that an acorn has been dug up, and what to do with it to make it "shine". Serendipity is always a factor in any endeavour, but some people seem to always be more lucky than others in finding those acorns.

I agree with you that I didn't find a lot of the Instant Gallery appealing. But that is a matter of taste. The question becomes whether I can admire the technique, the ability and the imagination involved in making the piece, despite the fact that I don't like it. IF I can do that, I find that I can learn even from those things I don't like.

Dinyar

 

[dinyarchavda]

Response to Duane

Duane:

You said: Even a blind sow can root up a acorn once in awhile.


True, but it takes talent to determine that an acorn has been dug up, and what to do with it to make it "shine". Serendipity is always a factor in any endeavour, but some people seem to always be more lucky than others in finding those acorns.

I agree with you that I didn't find a lot of the Instant Gallery appealing. But that is a matter of taste. The question becomes whether I can admire the technique, the ability and the imagination involved in making the piece, despite the fact that I don't like it. IF I can do that, I find that I can learn even from those things I don't like.


Hockenberry:

One of my club members turned a hollow vessel, then wound a rope around it very tightly, covering all of it, and soaking it with CA glue. Once it had "stabilized", he turned away the inside wood, leaving just a rope "basket". It was truly one of the most imaginative things that I had seen.

I used to be a "purist", in that I just turned stuff. Of late, I have started ot play with texturing and dyeing, and, in addition to opening up whole new areas, it has also allowed me to take more chances with my "pure" turnings.

Dinyar
Dinyar

 

[Mike Schwing]

Interesting conversation!

As another new turner, but one with a rather quick learning curve, I'm at the point where I am prepared to embark on the learning curve of surface enhancement, carving, etc.. The only reason why is that I like what I see others doing with wood beyond turning and I would like to have that option when I want it.

However, I can think of several artists that have restrained their wood art to strictly turning single pieces of wood, and their work blows me away.

As I attempt to decide where to begin this next phase of the journey, I wonder if I should at all, specifically because so many of the turning magazines and websites are "more than turning", and sometimes I wish there were less of it rather than more. I want to see more purely turned objects.

I'd guess that as a turner matures, he/she has a desire to do something different, and coupled with competition to be "recognized", there are only so many signatures available in purely turned wood.

I suppose in summary, I would like the AAW to be a little bit more focused on turning rather than carving, too. It can be a bit intimidating to look at things and say "how am I ever going to compete with that?"

 

[Phil Brennion]

All very good answers above.
Here's one of my personal takes on the subject - It seems at present carving and embellishment have been just a natural progression in the turning field . It has been the same in pottery for thousands of years and now in glass as well as other media. While pure forms are the foundation of most good vessels- I might pose this question to turners who ponder the carving/embellishment issue of turned bowls. When will woodturning cease to be identified with a proliferatioon of vessels, and move beyond that form with any significant impact to the field ? Many may ponder the need to be a carver, others I hope are pondering the need to be a turner of vessels.

 

[Wilford Bickel]

Great Comments

These are just the thoughts I wanted to see brought out when I first posted. While I did not get to attend in Orlando, I was very disappointed when I received the magazine containing pictures from Orlando. The majority of the work was heavily carved. I don't think this was a concern until the development of the mechanical carving tools (such as Dremel) over the last few years.

I do believe this is something our Association must react to fast - I would say we need some way to seperate items such as if over 10% (just an example) of the surface is textured or carved then it goes into display and competition as a carved turning - not just a turning. We don't want to loose members but we are based on turning.

As I said before - no war but I welcome all comments!

Wilford

 

[Duane]

Turned then carved or just turned.

Now boys. just how do you think that blind sow would feel if she did root up an acorn.
Anyway alot of good thoughts above. I think issues like this need to be talked about as much as possible. To get as many different points of view as possible. As for my self I am getting into more and more turned and then carved pieces. I find it to be even more satisfying than just turning. And I would not have belived that a few years ago. But I still get way to much fun out of just turning.
I think it was Ann Landers who once wrote " you should always dance with the one that broung you". In our case we are turners and should be true to the lathe.
It might be the point we are missing is that there must be room for both. Turning as a foundation for sculpting, carving.and texturing. Without the turned foundation you wouldn't be able to carve or sculpt.
I think one of the things that has caused a lot this issue is the demonstratores we all love to watch. Many of them have had to learn and incorporate other skills into their work just to keep ahead of every one else. Many of us want to be turners have to take up carving and other skills so that we can be like our heros. It's the same thing as in golf or pro bass fishing or any other sport or hobby. I think also that some of these demonstraters feel like they have to more or less show off to us so that they will remain popular and keep getting billings.
Anyway just a few more of my thoughts. I do tend to ramble on don't I. No you don't need to answer that.

Duane.