Totally Turning 2022

[egsiegel]

is anyone here going to be at Totally Turning in Saratoga Springs, NY?

 

[Rip Littig]

As a newer turner I'm thinking about it. I've never been to a live demonstration. No offense to Ashley Harwood but I was excited to see it looks like Stuart Batty is filling in for her. The cost seems very reasonable, it's just the four hour drive and a weekend away that has me on the fence. For those who have attended similar events, did you find the in person demonstrations far superior to watching HD videos online? I'm sure like many of you, I've watched bowl turning demonstrations online from Glenn Lucas, Stuart Batty, Ashley Harwood, David Ellsworth and Lyle Jamieson to name a few. Is it that much better in person?

 

[hockenbery]

I've never been to a live demonstration. For those who have attended similar events, did you find the in person demonstrations far superior to watching HD videos online?
Is it that much better in person?

I prefer in person especially if I can sit close to the lathe.

It gets iffy if you have to watch a tv. If there is a bad videographer it will be a bad experience for those dependent on the video.
With a good videographer the size of the screen will limit what you see.
Big projection screens properly set up the - details are big enough to see from 60-80 feet away.

TVs the image are smaller the details are smaller. If you are further that 12 ft from a 60” tv you only see details with close ups.

When I was at SWAT a few years ago a lady sitting on the front row told me she was at my first HF demo but was too far from the tv to see anything so she came back.

When I have seen Stewart - he does a good job of working with the Videographer to be sure they get good shots of key parts of the process.

Often with a live demo you can see and handle tools and turnings but not always.
Also interaction and networking with other turners.

 

[Dave Landers]

First, I'll say that a well-presented remote demonstration has a couple of advantages. Everyone gets a front-row seat, and you get the camera angle that the demonstrator wants you to see.

But you miss a lot. For example, you may not see body movement (or whatever) if the camera is focused on the tool (or whatever). And there's no opportunity for the demonstrator to pass around samples or tools, etc. Many of the questions that get asked during a remote demo (things like what size is that tool or how big is the blank, etc) are basically evident when you're in the room.

But the biggest thing you miss, in my opinion, happens outside the demos. Chatting with the other attendees or the demonstrators. I've learned several really useful tips and things from random hallway conversations. There's often a gallery where attendees can bring their work (and you absolutely should, regardless of your skill level or your own opinion of your work). You can talk with others about their work and yours. If there's a critique session, it's instructive to hear what they say about select pieces. Or grab one of the demonstrators and get a private critique of your stuff. And the vendors - actually see and touch stuff before you buy - can't do that on the interwebs.

 

[hockenbery]

As a newer turner I'm thinking about it. I've never been to a live demonstration.

Are you going to totally turning? Go!

Much different answer - mini symposiums become an immersive experience.
Overwhelming in a good way.

There will be a myriad of activities, beyond the demonstrations.
Lots of opportunities to talk with turners of all skill levels.

You won’t be able to see every demonstration so pick 7 things you really might turn in the next year and 1 you know nothing about to stretch your boundaries.

 

[Bill Blasic]

It is great to be around woodturners even though you will see a better demo on line than in person (especially if the turner knows how to run their cameras) but it is great to be there once in a while. Being able to see the trade show and meeting up with old friends. If you can make it go and start some great memories.

 

[Tim Tucker]

There are reasons why some prefer the remote demos.....but I think that in-person demos are the best - especially for newer turners. Look, you can always find really good stuff on Youtube and such - but what you cannot do on pre-recorded demonstrations is - ask a question while the turner is doing something you don't understand, or did not see well.
Yes, I am ...."that guy"...I will get there early - do my best to get a seat in the front row where I can see BOTH the turner's hands AND the display screen.And I WILL ask questions at will. THAT is why I am there. I have chosen to invest in myself by spending a little extra ( in relation to what lathes and tooling costs...seminars are only a "little extra"...right?) and taking all of the live, in person instruction I can get. That includes symposia. And - as Bill and others have mentioned - there is IMHO - GREAT value in the opportunity to get to meet other turner's from all over the country - and world in some cases and make and meet friends beyond your normal range of geography.
Perhaps especially now - in what we all hope is a "post-Covid" world - the value of in-person interaction is invaluable to me.And - for newer turners....The opportunity to meet people whose names they have heard, or their videos they have watched.....again, invaluable.
GO to the symposium. You will never regret it.

 

[Brent@TurnRobust]

I haven't went to Totally Turning for a few years, but when I did go, I can tell you they did a first-class job. The demo rooms are reasonably small, so you'll get a good seat. +1 on all the other comments too about going to an in-person event. They also have a really nice instant gallery of turnings and a second gallery of flat wood. You will see FANTASTIC work in both galleries. Also a great trade-show. About one third turning related, the balance flat work. Plus, very good dining in downtown Saratoga Springs. I recommend you take the trip !

 

[Mark Jundanian]

I won't be making Totally Turning (when is it?), but I will be at AAW in June

I'll cast another vote for in person demonstrations/symposia. For all the reasons above, but most especially for the trade show where I can lay hands on tools & products, and ask questions of vendors in real time. And the instant gallery where I can truly see others work and have my work truly seen.

 

[Rip Littig]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Totally Turning will take place Saturday & Sunday March 26th & 27th in Saratoga Springs, NY.

Totally Turning Information – Northeastern Woodworkers Association

woodworker.org

 

[egsiegel]

As a newer turner I'm thinking about it. I've never been to a live demonstration. No offense to Ashley Harwood but I was excited to see it looks like Stuart Batty is filling in for her. The cost seems very reasonable, it's just the four hour drive and a weekend away that has me on the fence. For those who have attended similar events, did you find the in person demonstrations far superior to watching HD videos online? I'm sure like many of you, I've watched bowl turning demonstrations online from Glenn Lucas, Stuart Batty, Ashley Harwood, David Ellsworth and Lyle Jamieson to name a few. Is it that much better in person?

In person allows you to ask questions.
there are some good demonstrators this year. (I agree about Ashley/Stuart).
I've been to this one several times and think it is well done....big enough to see a lot, small enough not to be overwhelmed or sit way back

 

[egsiegel]

but the biggest thing you miss, in my opinion, happens outside the demos. Chatting with the other attendees or the demonstrators. I've learned several really useful tips and things from random hallway conversations. There's often a gallery where attendees can bring their work (and you absolutely should, regardless of your skill level or your own opinion of your work). You can talk with others about their work and yours. If there's a critique session, it's instructive to hear what they say about select pieces. Or grab one of the demonstrators and get a private critique of your stuff. And the vendors - actually see and touch stuff before you buy - can't do that on the interwebs.

Couldn't agree more

 

[egsiegel]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Totally Turning will take place Saturday & Sunday March 26th & 27th in Saratoga Springs, NY.

Totally Turning Information – Northeastern Woodworkers Association

woodworker.org

BTW....Totally Turning runs in conjunction with the NWA Woodworking Showcase. With TT admission you get both (not the other way around) so there are some non-turning demos and activities you could enjoy too.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

I'll be there. Really missed it the last two years. In person is different to remote, not necessarily better or worse. Personally I'm burned out on remotes and look forward to the live interaction.

 

[Bill Blasic]

There are reasons why some prefer the remote demos.....but I think that in-person demos are the best - especially for newer turners. Look, you can always find really good stuff on Youtube and such - but what you cannot do on pre-recorded demonstrations is - ask a question while the turner is doing something you don't understand, or did not see well.
Yes, I am ...."that guy"...I will get there early - do my best to get a seat in the front row where I can see BOTH the turner's hands AND the display screen.And I WILL ask questions at will. THAT is why I am there. I have chosen to invest in myself by spending a little extra ( in relation to what lathes and tooling costs...seminars are only a "little extra"...right?) and taking all of the live, in person instruction I can get. That includes symposia. And - as Bill and others have mentioned - there is IMHO - GREAT value in the opportunity to get to meet other turner's from all over the country - and world in some cases and make and meet friends beyond your normal range of geography.
Perhaps especially now - in what we all hope is a "post-Covid" world - the value of in-person interaction is invaluable to me.And - for newer turners....The opportunity to meet people whose names they have heard, or their videos they have watched.....again, invaluable.
GO to the symposium. You will never regret it.

Tim,
With todays online demos you can ask any question you want and it is answered by the demonstrator. In the last online symposium there were question and answer programs after each demo. I will guarantee that with a online demonstrator who knows what they are doing you will see twice as much and a better view than sitting at a live demo. I've sat at least a thousand of them. Watch a Cindy Drozda demo and you will see every nuance of the tool working and usually why its working. Some of Cindy's demos last 4 hours and then she edits them and you can watch them for like 6 months. And yes I still go to symposia also for different reasons than the demos.

 

[Tim Tucker]

Bill - I watch 3-4 online demos a month. Somehow I got on everybody's list. Cindy and I communicate on a regular basis - and yes, I think hers are among the best IRD's available. But there is no possible substitute for the in person.- sorry - it is a different experience. The camaraderie is the part that we cannot duplicate on-line. The high variability in quality of the video of both IRD's and in-person demos is a wash to me. You can get a bad internet connection, or the demonstrator have technical issues on their end - Ask the Woodturners Worldwide about that one....Again for the best experience for real live in person demo - get there early. Get a front row seat where you can see what is going on at the lathe..The social experience and meeting of folks is worth it to attend symposiums for me and likely most newer turners. I can appreciate that at some point when a person feels a sense of self-accomplishment - maybe the IRD becomes the favorite method of seeing a demonstration.

There are many of us that would argue a bad seat at the Super Bowl still beats a big screen in your living room. It is the experience of truly "being there"....

 

[Bill Blasic]

Well Tim I guess we are just going to agree on disagreeing. Don't get me wrong as I've gone to symposia for over 15 years, 3 and 4 a year. I enjoy them. I've had the best turners in the world here in my shop for hands on, even Cindy was here for 5 days and been to her demos but compared to watching her online demos there is no comparison to actually see what she is doing with the tools she is using. I will be at 4 symposiums this year and you will see me at some of the demos but I suspect it will be for ideas and to meet up with those I've met over the years. And I had no problem watching 80 hours of demos from the last worldwide online symposium, probably why I'm so burnt out about online demos Cindy has a metal demo this coming Wednesday that I'll probably see.

 

[Tim Tucker]

I don't think we disagree in principle Bill. Just timing.. Your time/experience perspective in turning is much longer than mine. My thoughts about IRD's vs in-prtson demos are are influenced by my relative newness. I still feel the need for personal interaction with folks that you have likely gotten past. And - while we can ask questions at IRDs - the pragmatics of everyone typing at the same time....in every case I have asked questions, some have gone un-answered just because the demonstrator has a timeline and they get buried with a ton of questions. So, while neither method is perfect - I use them BOTH to the fullest possible.
COVID has changed our world - and some of the changes are not all negative. It has forced us all to learn via new methods and...hopefully still be able to get back together as we used to and keep alive old friendships and make new ones.
So, rather than think we disagree - how about this: I appreciate you -and your experience. And I hope that you can look back to a similar time for you and remember the value placed on those in-person meetings/training/reinforcements of when you still felt you were a journeyman.

 

[Russ Braun]

If you’ve never experienced the eagerness to get back to your lathe after a Symposium, trust me, it’s well worth the challenges of attending!!
If you want twice that feeling, sign up and volunteer; definately interact with people as much as possible…you will not miss the next Symposium after doing that!!

 

[egsiegel]

And yes I still go to symposia also for different reasons than the demos.

Can't chat over a beer on a virtual demo!

 

[Dennis Weiner]

AAW member# 9345 since 95. For years, I always passed this event up. After all, How many bowls, goblets, and embellishments sessions can one see?!
So, I decided to go.... and I'll see you guys up there for that beer.

 

[Robert Ludwig]

I,ll be attending see you guys for a beer. Be there friday night. Wheres the meetup?

 

[egsiegel]

I,ll be attending see you guys for a beer. Be there friday night. Wheres the meetup?

I'll be there Friday too...beer in the lobby usually

 

[Chris Rauber]

The quality of demonstrators at the show seems to be declining over the last 5 years unfortunately. Still love Saratoga Springs and Totally Turning, but it used to be kind of a stacked cast in comparison.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

It looks like a pretty good cast of characters to me, but different people have different interests. (Now I'm thinking it's too bad I can't pop off to NY this weekend).

 

[egsiegel]

The quality of demonstrators at the show seems to be declining over the last 5 years unfortunately. Still love Saratoga Springs and Totally Turning, but it used to be kind of a stacked cast in comparison.

I thing there are some good demonstrators this year....usually are.
Some nationally know, some local, some friends of mine I haven't seen in a while.

I think the biggest problem these events face (as do local clubs), is it is hard to find new topics for demonstrations (and demonstrators).
I go to these things and I see the "big names" doing the same demo as at the last place...or last time at the same place.
OR
We see new people demonstrating what they learned from the "big names" at the last symposium.

How do we find/develop new content to keep these gatherings worth while?

 

[R Henrickson]

I think the biggest problem these events face (as do local clubs), is it is hard to find new topics for demonstrations (and demonstrators).
I go to these things and I see the "big names" doing the same demo as at the last place...or last time at the same place.
OR
We see new people demonstrating what they learned from the "big names" at the last symposium.
How do we find/develop new content to keep these gatherings worth while?

I think part of the problem as outlined is 'marketing' -- it is easier to sell a 'name' than an unknown. In addition, many turners seem to have a relatively narrow range of interests -- e.g., bowls, hollow forms, some forms of embellishment. Relatively little spindle-related work, aside from perhaps pens, is demonstrated. In doing demos for regional clubs, I try to do things other than bowls / hollow forms / other such fare, to show other possibilities (several different types of multiaxis turning, 2D and 3D spindle constructions, traditional types of turning, etc). I'm interested in Windsor chairs. I've gotten complaints that I'm doing "something different" or that's "too complicated". "Why don't you do what everybody else does?" "I don't want to see/do something different". "I just want to turn bowls".

How to get new content -- for example, look at what is posted on various forums. There are people doing interesting and different things. It's up to the organizers whether the same topics and/or people are scheduled. But they *have to* entice people into paying registration, room and board, and travel -- at least several hundred dollars or more -- if the event is to be financially viable. Unfortunately, 'unknowns' doing 'something different' may be harder to sell. I would hate to be the organizer for any of these events.

 

[Donna Banfield]

There are two things that impact the turning demonstrators at TT. First, they cannot allow any demonstrator to use a woodburner, even at low heat, like Cynthia Carden Gibson might do, to be a demonstrator. That is according to the fire marshal. When Bihn Pho agreed to demonstrate there, sometime around 2013-2014, (and the years may be fuzzy) it wasn't until he arrived at the Symposium that specific detail was shared with him. He had to change his entire presentation at the last minute to accommodate that restriction. If you're familiar with the work done by the late Binh Pho, his artwork began with a woodburner to sketch out his stories. The ban may have extended to using his NSK Presto, the dental drill he used for piercing, which would always create smoke, also forbidden, according to the fire marshal. The turning coordinator, Kurt Hertzog has been very careful to explain that detail in advance to any future demonstrator. Which will limit the options on demonstrators.

The second thing that many attendees do not understand, for most regional Symposiums, only the big names get paid to be there, and reimbursed expenses and hotel costs. The demonstrators who are 'local', and by that, I mean, are not big names but are talented nevertheless, and live within a 4-5 hour driving distance, only get paid a stipend, last I recall was $200 per rotation. No travel, hotel or any other expenses reimbursed. That's not just TT, but is typical for most regional symposia.

So, for those who are second guessing the choice of demonstrators, this is what I was told:, and I quote; "the big names will fill the seats."

 

[Tim Tucker]

I would like to add a "new-ish" perspective. Just going on my 4th year in turning - I know a lot of names I see online and in-print...but have not seen in person. So, I suggest that for those of you that have been turning much longer than have I - and many other "short term" turners for that matter - your perspective is ....different, because you have "seen it all". Or at least....much more of it than a lot of folks. So, it IS important to have some new and innovative presentations for those who have been turning longer. But those of us who are still trying to reach a level of confidence in our shapes and finishes are also still entertained - and taught a lot - by the demonstrations that you may find boring or redactive. I can see both sides of the issue and some of the complexity of it.

If woodturning were a craft that was taught such as one of the trades ( plumbing, electrical, carpentry, auto mechanics - etc..) the organizers of symposia would find it easier to organize by syllabus, or skill level in a structured manner. But because we are free to experiment and learn in a way that is not like a career oriented educational manner - we as woodturners are harder to organize for presentations that are applicable to all attendees in a large group at a time.

 

[hockenbery]

The second thing that many attendees do not understand, for most regional Symposiums, only the big names get paid to be there, and reimbursed expenses and hotel costs.

. Florida Symposium is quite good to the locals. Last 4 times I’ve been a local they provided registration, food lodging and fee for each demo. No travel expenses.
Like all regionals the florida symposiums is owned and operated by the local chapters. In 2006 I did Totally Turning ( paid for airfare, hotel, food, demos) And for the first time the Florida Symposium ( paid demos only). In casual conversations with board members I pointed out that most of their “ local” demonstrators were demoing at AAW other regionals. I also shared with them how Totally Turning treated me.
The Florida symposium does a pretty good job of using the local spots for both nationally known Floridians and giving first exposure for lesser known Floridians.

Just going on my 4th year in turning

One stat from the AAW that is quite consistent year to year is 40% of the attendees it is their first symposium.

 

[Tim Tucker]

.

One stat from the AAW that is quite consistent year to year is 40% of the attendees it is their first symposium.

Curious to know retention percentage….based on 1 year and maybe 5 year basis.

 

[hockenbery]

Curious to know retention percentage….based on 1 year and maybe 5 year basis.

This is dated information. So don’t know if it has changed.

AAW used to have an annual retention of 85% - extremely high for similar organizations.
An annual new members of 20%
Growth rate in members of 5%

I looked at attrition by length of membership about 10 years ago. At that time it was highest among the shortest membership.
And close to zero for members who had been in for 4 years or more.

The electronic registration made length of membership impossible to track if there was a break in membership.
AAW has something like about 10% of the non renewals simply people forgetting to do so.
In the old fashioned manual system the AAW staff would renew lapsed membership and give them their old membership number.
The old system membership ran for the calendar year so renewing in the same year gave retroactive no break in membership.
Unless it has changed the electronic system signs up lapsed member as new members in the month they sign up.


So now someone with 10 years as a member forgets to renew. They miss a getting journal realize their membership has lapsed.
They sign up and count as a New member and as a member who left at ten years.

 

[egsiegel]

I think part of the problem as outlined is 'marketing' -- it is easier to sell a 'name' than an unknown. In addition, many turners seem to have a relatively narrow range of interests -- e.g., bowls, hollow forms, some forms of embellishment. Relatively little spindle-related work, aside from perhaps pens, is demonstrated. In doing demos for regional clubs, I try to do things other than bowls / hollow forms / other such fare, to show other possibilities (several different types of multiaxis turning, 2D and 3D spindle constructions, traditional types of turning, etc). I'm interested in Windsor chairs. I've gotten complaints that I'm doing "something different" or that's "too complicated". "Why don't you do what everybody else does?" "I don't want to see/do something different". "I just want to turn bowls".

How to get new content -- for example, look at what is posted on various forums. There are people doing interesting and different things. It's up to the organizers whether the same topics and/or people are scheduled. But they *have to* entice people into paying registration, room and board, and travel -- at least several hundred dollars or more -- if the event is to be financially viable. Unfortunately, 'unknowns' doing 'something different' may be harder to sell. I would hate to be the organizer for any of these events.

Very well said.
I always look for "something different" to demo. I also try to find topics that can be done (in some form) by relative beginners as well as used as a jumping off point for very advanced turners. That often is a challenge...but I like to think I have been successful.
Somehow there needs to be a balance....new vs. repeat...big name vs. unknown....in order to satisfy the majority and draw people to participate...and to grow our community.

 

[Russell Karkheck]

is anyone here going to be at Totally Turning in Saratoga Springs, NY?

I am. Just to add my (possibly unnecessary) $.02: First of all, Totally Turning is a great venue. The hotel attached to the convention center is quite comfortable, and there are myriad good restaurants nearby. The conference rooms are comfortable, with bathrooms for us white haired "frequent flyers" nearby. I agree with most of what has been said pro and con regarding both in-person and IRD demos and the social aspect of the former. As to this particular conference I, too, am thrilled that Stuart Batty is replacing Ashley Harwood. Stu is a GREAT presenter, and the best teacher I have ever had - for anything. Although his presentations online are always informative, Stu comes alive in front of an audience, and seems to feed off it. So, in addition to great and inspiring instruction, you get some really good entertainment at no additional charge! See you there. Russ

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Have to say in regards to repetition I have been to less than a handful of symposia and I learn something different each demo. Even if it is something I have done several times I have found that demonstrators have a different take on doing the same thing in a different manner. Not to say I will not tire of these but they are fun especially if the vendor area is well stocked

 

[Donna Banfield]

Florida Symposium is quite good to the locals. Last 4 times I’ve been a local they provided registration, food lodging and fee for each demo. No travel expenses.

Al, I would always put you in the category of a big name. You have been integral to woodturning at the grassroots level for well more than two decades. And what you demonstrate, and your method, is top notch. I've seen it. I would expect you to be in the top tier in the demonstrator circuit.

My post was simply sharing my personal experience with respect to regional symposia, and the expectations of attendees at these regional symposia, when they may express disappointment when seeing the demonstrator roster. You get what you pay for cannot be more appropriate in this case.

 

[hockenbery]

My post was simply sharing my personal experience with respect to regional symposia, and the expectations of attendees at these regional symposia, when they may express disappointment when seeing the demonstrator roster. You get what you pay for cannot be more appropriate in this case.

Thanks for the kind words.

I totally agree.
Don’t forget another group of unpaid folks in the symposiums - the people who organize them. Sometimes they don’t have very good demonstrator selection processes.

I’ve had the pleasure of seeing a couple of your demos and you are first rate!

 

[Chris Rauber]

The addition of woodturners wonders saved the vendor space that has been on the shrinking side. No more are the days of bad dog burls, buttermilk lumber etc. now there are some people selling walnut slab cut-offs that werent properly dried for 25 dollars a foot. Now the turning gallery is inside what used to be designated just for vendors.

 

[Russell Karkheck]

Absolutely true. And they still kick attendees out of the vendor space as the last rotation ends. Seems like a good time for people to buy things. Don’t think this year’s lineup is quite as good as in times past - except for Stuart Batty. Always learn something useful from him. I also think they could do a better job with photography. Better lighting and more cameras. However, depending on the lineup, I’d consider coming back again.

 

[egsiegel]

Symposium was fun.
Smaller than usual.
And what has been said about the vendor space is true....just a few. That is a big loss for the show.