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I was wondering if anyone out there uses the tormek for sharpening, (not shapeing) and what you thought of it, it seems very expensive worth it ?????
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Tormek sharpening
- Thread starter onewaywood
- Start date
slow and wet...
I bought a Jet "slow and wet" sharpener and adapted my Wolverine Jig to it.
(very easy) It is not a Tormek, but I refused to pay that much for an unknown improvement. I like the slow and wet way of sharpening. The 2" wide by 10" diameter wheel is a definite plus. I have much better control of the shape of my bevel when turning slow. The newly sharpened face is very fine. I am not wasting away my tools. And it looks as though (after a year) that the wheel will last the rest of my life.
The water tray is cumbersome to empty or clean with my modification of the Wolverine jig, but a paper towel once in a while and a blast with compressed air solved for that.
I give "Two thumbs up" for wet and slow...whatever the brand name, and the money saved paid for a couple of new gouges.
I bought a Jet "slow and wet" sharpener and adapted my Wolverine Jig to it.
(very easy) It is not a Tormek, but I refused to pay that much for an unknown improvement. I like the slow and wet way of sharpening. The 2" wide by 10" diameter wheel is a definite plus. I have much better control of the shape of my bevel when turning slow. The newly sharpened face is very fine. I am not wasting away my tools. And it looks as though (after a year) that the wheel will last the rest of my life.
The water tray is cumbersome to empty or clean with my modification of the Wolverine jig, but a paper towel once in a while and a blast with compressed air solved for that.
I give "Two thumbs up" for wet and slow...whatever the brand name, and the money saved paid for a couple of new gouges.
have both
I have both, the wolverine and the tormek. I like the tormek for skews and regular chisels and carving tools. Not saying the wolverine is any better but for me it is faster than the tormek for quick touch up as I don't always have water handy to recharge the tormek well.
For most the orginal question is like asking which lathe or chuck is better. It all depends on which one you have at the time. I like them both for different jobs but unless you have other uses for it I think the tormek is a little pricey.
Vernon
I have both, the wolverine and the tormek. I like the tormek for skews and regular chisels and carving tools. Not saying the wolverine is any better but for me it is faster than the tormek for quick touch up as I don't always have water handy to recharge the tormek well.
For most the orginal question is like asking which lathe or chuck is better. It all depends on which one you have at the time. I like them both for different jobs but unless you have other uses for it I think the tormek is a little pricey.
Vernon
I sharpen exclusively on the Tormek. I find I have much more control than I do with the wolverine on a "slow speed" grinder. Particularly with skews. Initial set up time and sharpening is no longer than with the wolverine and to bring the same tool back for additional sharpenings is really quick. No stone / metal dust all over the shop is another big plus for me.
The downside is that most people don't have tormeks so trying to sharpen your tools in a strange shop is a dicey proposition. Of course, not everyone has a wolverine so you really need to learn to sharpen free-hand if you want to be sure you can sharpen just about anywhere.
I got a pretty good deal on the machine and a bunch of jigs at a woodworking show 3 years ago. Now that the dollar has lost so much value, the tormek stuff is really really expensive (up more than 30% over when I bought). If I was making the decision today I might wait a year or two until the dollar strengthened again and prices maybe came back down.
Being able to sharpen planer blades, knives and bunches of other stuff is a nice bonus, but I really own it for sharpening turning tools.
Ed
The downside is that most people don't have tormeks so trying to sharpen your tools in a strange shop is a dicey proposition. Of course, not everyone has a wolverine so you really need to learn to sharpen free-hand if you want to be sure you can sharpen just about anywhere.
I got a pretty good deal on the machine and a bunch of jigs at a woodworking show 3 years ago. Now that the dollar has lost so much value, the tormek stuff is really really expensive (up more than 30% over when I bought). If I was making the decision today I might wait a year or two until the dollar strengthened again and prices maybe came back down.
Being able to sharpen planer blades, knives and bunches of other stuff is a nice bonus, but I really own it for sharpening turning tools.
Ed
Interesting!
For a bowl gouge, do you have the stone rotating into the edge (as it would be on the standard Wolverine setup) or going away from the edge (as is done on the Tormek jig)?
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I have a Makita wet stone that I use for my chisels,plane irons and planer/jointer knives. Wonderful tool for those applications, but hardly necessary for turning tools which, I think you'll find, the majority of people don't even hone. Some never even use a slip to kick the wire edge off the inside of the gouge.
Precision in grinding can never be matched by precision in presentation, so I just freehand on my grinder. No special tooling required beyond a toolrest, same as the lathe. If the tool were held and presented to the work by a machine or tool, it would make a difference.
Precision in grinding can never be matched by precision in presentation, so I just freehand on my grinder. No special tooling required beyond a toolrest, same as the lathe. If the tool were held and presented to the work by a machine or tool, it would make a difference.
With the tormek I only use the honing capability on the turning tools (or bother to knock off the burr on the inside) if I am doing a finish cut on a particularly fussy tear-out prone piece of wood. I find the turning tools cut fantastic for 99% of my needs right off the stone.
My eye sight is not all that great and I found things were happening too fast for me on the "slow speed" grinder (free hand or with a jig), resulting in too many botched sharpenings and excessive tool wear. The tormek is quick to sharpen, but not too quick in removing metal for me to be able to control.
One thing to keep in mind with the tormek or wolverine, is that they only assist the grinding. You (not the jig) actually control the final shape. It's still possible to screw up the tool shape if you don't pay attention to what you are doing.
Ed
My eye sight is not all that great and I found things were happening too fast for me on the "slow speed" grinder (free hand or with a jig), resulting in too many botched sharpenings and excessive tool wear. The tormek is quick to sharpen, but not too quick in removing metal for me to be able to control.
One thing to keep in mind with the tormek or wolverine, is that they only assist the grinding. You (not the jig) actually control the final shape. It's still possible to screw up the tool shape if you don't pay attention to what you are doing.
Ed
I'm and avid Tormek user
Like most turners, I learned to sharpen my turning tools on a dry grinder. There is certainly nothing wrong with that approach. However, I converted to using a Tormek and highly recommend the "wet and slow" approach. Here are some of the advantages:
Like most turners, I learned to sharpen my turning tools on a dry grinder. There is certainly nothing wrong with that approach. However, I converted to using a Tormek and highly recommend the "wet and slow" approach. Here are some of the advantages:
- Sharper edge. A Tormek's 1000 grit stone produces a substantially sharper edge than comes off of a dry grinder's 80 grit wheel. Obviously, if you use the Tormek's leather wheel to hone the edge, the edge will be even sharper still. When I started turning, I was told the rougher grit grinding wheels (say 60 grit) produce a serated edge that was actually sharper than what came off a 100 grit wheel. Well, my skews and gouges cut much more cleanly off the Tormek than they ever did off the grinder.
- Longer lasting edge. I've not done a scientific study, but it really seems like my tools remain sharper if they've been sharpened on the Tormek instead of a dry grinder.
- Consistent shape. Soon after I started turning, I set my grinder up with a jig. Even using that jig, there was still a fair amount of variability in the shape of my bowl gouge from one sharpening to the next. The Tormek's jig's have less play in them. This makes it easier for me to return to the lathe with a tool that just the same as it was when I was at the lathe -- only sharper. Even if you just change the bevel angle a fraction of a degree, the gouge will pick up the cut slightly differently. That might mean your "last cut" becomes your second to last cut.
- Longer lasting tool. A Tormek removes material from your turning tool very slowly -- compared to a dry grinder. You'll be surprised how much metal you grind away even when using a slow speed dry grinder and a light touch. The same light touch with a Tormek will get your tool sharp(er) while only grinding away 1/3 as much metal.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
I don't dispute that the Tormek gets tools sharper. It's obvious. I've read research proving the cutting edge last longer but not how much longer. Do you remove less metal when sharpening. Probably but then My tools last a long time using the Wolverine. The difference is probably in the thousandths of an inch if you have a light touch.
The Tormek is a fine tool and a joy to use (other than bringing water into a waterless shop) I certainly won't dispute that. My only problem is the cost. I have $87 + tax in my grinder and about $120 in my wolverine. All totalled that's a little over $200. I just can't justify the $600 + price of the Tormek. If money is not a problem then I would buy the Tormek. It's a great machine.
I did add a Shepach wet grinder to my arsenal for another $100 so now I can hone the tools if necessary and can sharpen my flat chisels and carving tools.
The Tormek is a fine tool and a joy to use (other than bringing water into a waterless shop) I certainly won't dispute that. My only problem is the cost. I have $87 + tax in my grinder and about $120 in my wolverine. All totalled that's a little over $200. I just can't justify the $600 + price of the Tormek. If money is not a problem then I would buy the Tormek. It's a great machine.
I did add a Shepach wet grinder to my arsenal for another $100 so now I can hone the tools if necessary and can sharpen my flat chisels and carving tools.
John,
The test method is not clearly explained and it is troubling that this is an "extract" from an article in Woodturning magazine #70 (presumably selected by Tormek) instead of the entire article, but it does give edge duration as about twice as long.
http://www.tormek.com/en/leaflet/pdf/wet_or_dry_en.pdf
I like the idea of pairing the Grizzly or Scheppach with a Wolverine style jig.
PS - Check your PM's.
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I bought the Tormek at Richmond. I agree with Ed on this. I have found my gouges last at least twice as long as off the grinder and I do hone mine. I use the grinder to shape and the Tormek to sharpen. I got the turner kit and the hand tool kit. It does a fine job on kitchen knives and my wife's scissors.
Have used a Tormek for long enough that I've replaced the wheel 4 or 5 times and for my purposes, it's a very superior system for turning tools. A few suggestions. Some extra tool holders saves a lot of time and also metal as one can keep them permanently set for families of tools. How sharp one wants a tool to be depends somewhat on the type of wood one is turning and also if it is green or dry though I don't know of any reason not to use tools that are brought to a very fine edge and honed. I turn mostly tropical hardwoods and do this mostly with Glaser tools made out of exotic metal. They function with fewer trips to the Tormek. This saves time compared with using softer tools and though the tools are more money, cost over time probably is the same as they last longer. I've found the fancy series from Hamlet are of superior metal. Glaser tools are no longer made. The biggest factor in this is the amount of metal being removed. On a Tormek, employing the permanently set jigs mentioned above, sharpness is achieved with the minumum amount of metal being removed.
I do use high quality loops to examine the produced edges.
I find that for sharpening items such a kitchen knives, I prefer the after market oriental type stones (the finer of the two).
I have a couple of regular bench grinders for removing gross amounts of metal from new turning tools. The Tormek is not suitable for this.
Malcolm Smith.
I do use high quality loops to examine the produced edges.
I find that for sharpening items such a kitchen knives, I prefer the after market oriental type stones (the finer of the two).
I have a couple of regular bench grinders for removing gross amounts of metal from new turning tools. The Tormek is not suitable for this.
Malcolm Smith.
Thanks for the pic!!!
Had a Jet, and returned it
I bought the Jet sharpner, and out of the box it had problems. While running it would suddenly stop. Looking at the wiring I noticed several wires that had over crimped connectors, cutting into the stranded wire. One connector was hanging by 2 strands (bad workmanship). I fixed the wires, but then during the sharpening process, the wheel would slip and stall. I took it back and got the Tormek, have been happy ever since.
I bought the Jet sharpner, and out of the box it had problems. While running it would suddenly stop. Looking at the wiring I noticed several wires that had over crimped connectors, cutting into the stranded wire. One connector was hanging by 2 strands (bad workmanship). I fixed the wires, but then during the sharpening process, the wheel would slip and stall. I took it back and got the Tormek, have been happy ever since.
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Onewaywood
I used my Tormek for over 8 years now for everything I want to sharpen. I like it a lot but it is slow and i won't get into the arguement that it sharpens better than a grinder and a jig or it can give you better control when sharpening. It's a good machine and does what it is made to do, the main reason most guys won't buy one is the price and that's understandable. It is only recently that they came out with their jig to sharpen repeatable sharpenings with the Tormek and I challenge the guy who says it doesn't take longer to repeat the sharpenings on a Tormek doesn't take longer to do. I do it both ways and can sharpen on my grinder with a vari grind jig in a couple minutes. With the Tormek it takes more time than that just to get the tool set up correctly to sharpen, or don't you count that five minutes or so as sharpening time? Tormek is a great tool. I have forty eight hand planes and wouldn't use any other tool to sharpen the planes or chisels, but for me I say a good grinder and a veri grind jig along with a very light touch is the way to go for woodturning tools. I take very little metal off with my grinder so no need to worry about turning down your tools. Most guys grind their tools down because they force the metal to the stone so hard it turns blue. Try this and see if your forceing your tools too hard when you sharpen. Sharpen one side of your gouge then the other. Now with two fingers squeeze your gouge lightly. If you can't keep your fingers on the gouge your forceing the grind and your to fault not your grinder. Practice this and in a little while you will notice a difference in your sharpening. I been doing this for years and never wore a tool out yet. My Tormek is great but so is my grinder and wolverine jigs. I can't imagine anything being and sharper than my turning tools straight off the grinder and frequently off the honeing wheel. One more thing everyone seems to think you can't sharpen your skews on a grinder. Get the oneway skew jig and those skews cut like mad. These different machines can do the work, but you as the turner can you make the machines work the way they are made to?It's not the machine guys, it's always the guy behind the machine. Mitch
I used my Tormek for over 8 years now for everything I want to sharpen. I like it a lot but it is slow and i won't get into the arguement that it sharpens better than a grinder and a jig or it can give you better control when sharpening. It's a good machine and does what it is made to do, the main reason most guys won't buy one is the price and that's understandable. It is only recently that they came out with their jig to sharpen repeatable sharpenings with the Tormek and I challenge the guy who says it doesn't take longer to repeat the sharpenings on a Tormek doesn't take longer to do. I do it both ways and can sharpen on my grinder with a vari grind jig in a couple minutes. With the Tormek it takes more time than that just to get the tool set up correctly to sharpen, or don't you count that five minutes or so as sharpening time? Tormek is a great tool. I have forty eight hand planes and wouldn't use any other tool to sharpen the planes or chisels, but for me I say a good grinder and a veri grind jig along with a very light touch is the way to go for woodturning tools. I take very little metal off with my grinder so no need to worry about turning down your tools. Most guys grind their tools down because they force the metal to the stone so hard it turns blue. Try this and see if your forceing your tools too hard when you sharpen. Sharpen one side of your gouge then the other. Now with two fingers squeeze your gouge lightly. If you can't keep your fingers on the gouge your forceing the grind and your to fault not your grinder. Practice this and in a little while you will notice a difference in your sharpening. I been doing this for years and never wore a tool out yet. My Tormek is great but so is my grinder and wolverine jigs. I can't imagine anything being and sharper than my turning tools straight off the grinder and frequently off the honeing wheel. One more thing everyone seems to think you can't sharpen your skews on a grinder. Get the oneway skew jig and those skews cut like mad. These different machines can do the work, but you as the turner can you make the machines work the way they are made to?It's not the machine guys, it's always the guy behind the machine. Mitch
Mitch, if you use the Turning Tool Setter (TTS) or the jigs described in the book that comes with the Tormek, you should be able to set up for sharpening on the Tormek in less than a minute. Bring the same tool back to resharpen and set up time is about 15 seconds.
You only set two or three things.
Distance of the bar from the wheel (15 seconds with the TTS for initial set up. 0 seconds on the resharpen).
Tool protrusion. (15 seconds with the TTS)
Jig setting (15 seconds if it needs to be changed for initial sharpening. 0 seconds for resharpening).
Ed
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
One of the main issues with the Shepach was the stone would stall to easily. I simply put a spring on motor and attached it to the chassis. You cannot stall it now. This machine definitely isn't the quality of a Tormek but was so inexpensive by comparison I thought I would try it out and it's fine for planes, chisels, and carving tools.
If I go with the grinds that the TTS-100 has, the set up time on Tormek is faster than matching up the nose angle with the sliding base on Wolverine. If I don't let my tools become very dull, to refresh a grind is as fast as Wolverine. The shaping of a tool on Tormek is extremely slow, especially on skew. It is hard to recommend this system to everybody. The price of this system with all the goodies is more than a lot of turners' whole turning budget. A dry grinder with sharpening jigs would do the same job for a fraction of money.
I believe the only method that is faster is using the dry grinder free hand, just the platform, no jig at all.
I believe the only method that is faster is using the dry grinder free hand, just the platform, no jig at all.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Gordon I have a wooden jig that fits in the Oneway sliding arm and touches my wheel in 2 places. Takes about 5 seconds to set up the arm for any of my tools. I made several of these jigs because I use a lot of different grinds.
I also added a riser block to the V groove so that I can set the jig one time for my bowl gouge and then place the riser block in the jig for my spindle and detail gouge. This means I never have to adjust the arm for any of these tools. This makes it extremely fast. I can sharpen any one of those tools in less than 30 seconds and that involves walking over to the grinder. I keep it somewhat far away because the walk loosens up my back and keeps me fresh longer.
I also added a riser block to the V groove so that I can set the jig one time for my bowl gouge and then place the riser block in the jig for my spindle and detail gouge. This means I never have to adjust the arm for any of these tools. This makes it extremely fast. I can sharpen any one of those tools in less than 30 seconds and that involves walking over to the grinder. I keep it somewhat far away because the walk loosens up my back and keeps me fresh longer.
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Ed I have one of them TTS since they came out, I have the older Tormek so I had to buy mine as an option. They are an improvement over the Tormek before the TTS jig came out and they do work well. What do you think was the reason Tormek came out with this TTs jig for Ed?The Oneway Wolverine vari grind was eating their lunch on sharpening sales. They had to come out with something like this.Like I said I use both and like both systems only was writing in defense of the grinder, everyone is saying it is not as fast. Fifteen seconds Ed, your stretching it my friend. When you turn how many times do you need to regrind on one turning? I regrind once at the most and then I hone at least twice before grinding again so that fifteen seconds when you come back to regrind again doesn't impress me. I believe in sharpening and doing it well, and I also believe in honeing several times before regrinding. I am only telling you what I think and not disagreeing with you Ed, I have both systems and they are both good. I am glad you like your Tormek and I wish you Happy Turning and sharpening. Mitch
Mitchell,
Most of turners don't start out with a Oneway or Powermatic lathe. It would be hard to swallow the price tag of a Tormek system when testing the water with a mini lathe and a set of Harbor Freight gouges. I believe the $80 Woodcraft slow speed grinder is the most popular sharpening system. From reading in several forums, I think a lot of turners just use the DIY version of the Wolverine jig to save money. I agree with you, the Wolverine does a fine job. The pay back of upgrading to a better lathe is more obvious than moving on to Tormek.
I have no ties to any sharpening system. It is just my wild guessing. Tormek has been successfully maintaining high price, high quality image. They have to innovate to make improvements to retain their pattern rights. What is eating their lunch is most of their patterns were expiring; the clones are stealing market shares.
Most of turners don't start out with a Oneway or Powermatic lathe. It would be hard to swallow the price tag of a Tormek system when testing the water with a mini lathe and a set of Harbor Freight gouges. I believe the $80 Woodcraft slow speed grinder is the most popular sharpening system. From reading in several forums, I think a lot of turners just use the DIY version of the Wolverine jig to save money. I agree with you, the Wolverine does a fine job. The pay back of upgrading to a better lathe is more obvious than moving on to Tormek.
I have no ties to any sharpening system. It is just my wild guessing. Tormek has been successfully maintaining high price, high quality image. They have to innovate to make improvements to retain their pattern rights. What is eating their lunch is most of their patterns were expiring; the clones are stealing market shares.
Everyone has a different budget, skill level, inherent level of ability and needs. No single solution will be perfect (or even adequate) for everybody.
For me the Tormek is the best sharpening solution and fortunately I could afford it at the time I bought it. I don't think I get my tools sharper than other competent turners using other methods, but I know for a fact that I get them sharper and do it a lot easier than I am able to using other methods. That's just me. Other people will certainly have different results. I tried freehand sharpening and the wolverine on a $80 slow speed before I made the decision to move to the Tormek. I still keep the grinder for shaping and other heavy duty tasks.
Some people advocate "buy your last _________ (whatever tool) first" and save a lot of money. I'm actually glad that I bought a starter lathe and an inexpensive slow speed grinder to start. As I've upgraded I feel I have a much greater appreciation for the abilities of the newer (and hopefully better) tools.
Time to stop typing and head out to the shop to turn some wood with with some really sharp tools.
Ed
For me the Tormek is the best sharpening solution and fortunately I could afford it at the time I bought it. I don't think I get my tools sharper than other competent turners using other methods, but I know for a fact that I get them sharper and do it a lot easier than I am able to using other methods. That's just me. Other people will certainly have different results. I tried freehand sharpening and the wolverine on a $80 slow speed before I made the decision to move to the Tormek. I still keep the grinder for shaping and other heavy duty tasks.
Some people advocate "buy your last _________ (whatever tool) first" and save a lot of money. I'm actually glad that I bought a starter lathe and an inexpensive slow speed grinder to start. As I've upgraded I feel I have a much greater appreciation for the abilities of the newer (and hopefully better) tools.
Time to stop typing and head out to the shop to turn some wood with with some really sharp tools.
Ed
There is some systematic test evidence* that a spindle gouge sharpened and honed on a Tormek will keep its edge longer than one done on a dry grinder. The test was with spindle turning only, on ash and pine.
I'm unaware of any systematic tests done with bowl gouges and scrapers, and am about to embark on tests of 3 scraper edge treatments (dry ground, wet ground and lapped, and a turned up/burnished edge).
Microscopic images show that a dry ground edge produces jagged thrown-up spikes (the burr); a burnished edge is somewhat smoother, and of course a wet-ground and lapped top looks like a mirror on the top right to the edge.
(And just for interest, thwacking the scraper edge into hardwood to remove the burr makes almost no difference; but then it's hardly the wire edge you get on a bench chisel with a 25 degree bevel.)
*Farrance, Woodturning magazine, issue 70. A summary is on the Tormek site as noted. The article is unclear about the test metrics but that aside the difference is clear both visually and in length of time of edge holding.
I'm unaware of any systematic tests done with bowl gouges and scrapers, and am about to embark on tests of 3 scraper edge treatments (dry ground, wet ground and lapped, and a turned up/burnished edge).
Microscopic images show that a dry ground edge produces jagged thrown-up spikes (the burr); a burnished edge is somewhat smoother, and of course a wet-ground and lapped top looks like a mirror on the top right to the edge.
(And just for interest, thwacking the scraper edge into hardwood to remove the burr makes almost no difference; but then it's hardly the wire edge you get on a bench chisel with a 25 degree bevel.)
*Farrance, Woodturning magazine, issue 70. A summary is on the Tormek site as noted. The article is unclear about the test metrics but that aside the difference is clear both visually and in length of time of edge holding.