Toolrest Question

[Robert Arnold]

I recently found myself in an unexpected situation. the depth of my most recent bowl has exceeded the reach of my toolrests. I have the larger J type as well as the inside bowl toolrests from Robust. Neither of these will allow me to get into the current bowl I am working on without having the tool extend precariously far over the edge. Any suggestions on where I could get larger toolrests or other possible solutions? Thanks, Robert

 

[john lucas]

How much overhang are you needing. I do 90% of my bowls using a straight tool rest. I have found my curved rests don't really give me any advantage. I do end up hanging some tool over the rests but proper cutting techniques have allowed me to get away with it. I should clarify. I rarely use a scraper unless it's just a very light cut to clean up an errant tool mark from the bowl gouge. Then I use a negative rake scraper that is pretty thick, although I'm just taking very light passes.

 

[hockenbery]

The big J rest from Robust give quite a bit of reach. Robust can probably make you a longer j rest.

How far over the rest you can work depends on your method of cut and skill.
Working further over the tool rest requires light cuts and sharp tools.
Also the further over the rest you work increases the likelihood of a catch of you cannot control the tool.

Practice a lot on bowls of a size you can turn with your rest and methods.
You have some nice looking bowls on your web site. Saw one 16” diameter so
You have some good technique for those bowls.

Once you achieve advanced and intermediate skills with a tool like the Ellsworth ground gouge your comfort for letting the cut reach over the tool rest will grow.
With practice most people can cut with an Ellsworth ground gouge extending 4-6” over the rest.
This is fool hardy when we are beginners because 4” over the rest is catch territory.

 

[olaf Vogel]

Find a buddy who can weld and make your own. To custom spec.

 

[George Guadiane]

Do you have a captured deep hollowing rig?
You could use that

 

[Robert Arnold]

How much overhang are you needing. I do 90% of my bowls using a straight tool rest. I have found my curved rests don't really give me any advantage. I do end up hanging some tool over the rests but proper cutting techniques have allowed me to get away with it. I should clarify. I rarely use a scraper unless it's just a very light cut to clean up an errant tool mark from the bowl gouge. Then I use a negative rake scraper that is pretty thick, although I'm just taking very light passes.

John I don’t need overhang I need to be able to reach into bowls that are 14 to 16 inches deep with a bowl gouge.

 

[Robert Arnold]

Do you have a captured deep hollowing rig?
You could use that

George I do have one but I wanted to stick to a bowl gouge if possible.

 

[Robert Arnold]

The big J rest from Robust give quite a bit of reach. Robust can probably make you a longer j rest.

How far over the rest you can work depends on your method of cut and skill.
Working further over the tool rest requires light cuts and sharp tools.
Also the further over the rest you work increases the likelihood of a catch of you cannot control the tool.

Practice a lot on bowls of a size you can turn with your rest and methods.
You have some nice looking bowls on your web site. Saw one 16” diameter so
You have some good technique for those bowls.

Once you achieve advanced and intermediate skills with a tool like the Ellsworth ground gouge your comfort for letting the cut reach over the tool rest will grow.
With practice most people can cut with an Ellsworth ground gouge extending 4-6” over the rest.
This is fool hardy when we are beginners because 4” over the rest is catch territory.

Al I already spoke to Brent at Robust and he cannot make a custom toolrest. The issue is not method of cut or skill level. I am turning bowls that are 14 to 16 inches deep. I need to make hollowing cuts which are not light and when the tool is extended too far the vibration becomes excessive.

 

[hockenbery]

John I don’t need overhang I need to be able to reach into bowls that are 14 to 16 inches deep with a bowl gouge.

The rest will reach in about 9” so you have
5-7” over hang with the gouge, doable but 7” will get tedious.
The 5” overhang should be little problem

I have an ancient Thompson boaring bar that I have used for some deep bowls where the gouge handle hits the side wall. It weighs about 10pounds but makes an ok surface using a 1/4” round cutter. It can work 18” over the the tool rest.

 

[hockenbery]

Al I already spoke to Brent at Robust and he cannot make a custom toolrest. The issue is not method of cut or skill level. I am turning bowls that are 14 to 16 inches deep. I need to make hollowing cuts which are not light and when the tool is extended too far the vibration becomes excessive.

I’m getting a better feel for your issues.

What size gouge are you using? Maybe a 1” bowl gouge would give you a good cut with minimal vibration.

Welding a gouge tip onto a 1” or 1.25 bar of steel might do it too. But the weight of tool is going to tire you out.

Using a hollowing rig may be your best bet.

 

[hockenbery]

Another thought you could use hook tool in a 1” or 1.25 bar.
If you use it upside down from the endgrain hollowing you can cut rim to bottom.
I have seen this done but never tried it myself.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

I agree...you're probably going to need to have a special rest fabricated. I've heard good things about the fellow who makes the rests that Dave of D-Way Tools used to sell. Here's his site:

https://www.brianameswelding.com/custom-tools.html

My cousin specializes in custom fabrication, largely for specialty linemen tools. After looking at my Robust rests he said anything that they make would be reasonably easy for him to make in his shop, including larger, longer rests. Once I get my new lathe, I'll probably take him up on that offer.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Another thought you could use hook tool in a 1” or 1.25 bar.
If you use it upside down from the endgrain hollowing you can cut rim to bottom.
I have seen this done but never tried it myself.

I've used a hook tool on end grain vases. To put it mildly, they're not very forgiving of mistakes. I'm not sure that I would be brave enough to try it as you described on a face grain bowl.

A 16" deep bowl is a lot deeper than anything that I've ever done and sounds more like a vase unless the diameter is also in proportion to the depth. The recommendations to use a boring bar sound pretty good. I have the Steve Sinner boring bar rig along with a Rolly Munro Hollower II guarded carbide cutter that I've used on hollowforms and it makes very clean cuts with long beautiful shavings. I have the 1⅛" bar which is able to work 24" over the rest although I've only gone a bit over 16" deep on hollowforms. All this is expensive, but something to consider.

 

[Odie]

The big J rest from Robust give quite a bit of reach.

If you don't have the J rest, you ought to consider getting one and trying it. It will go deeper than any rest I'm aware of. Making heavy hollowing cuts is much more difficult than many light passes.....especially when extending the tool an appreciable distance beyond the tool rest becomes necessary.

-----odie-----

 

[Paul M. Kaplowitz]

I use the Oneway curved toolrest both for coring and hollowing bowls up to 24" in dia by 8" deep. It works very well.
:"

 

[Odie]

I use the Oneway curved toolrest both for coring and hollowing bowls up to 24" in dia by 8" deep. It works very well.
:"

I also have the Oneway interior rest, plus the Robust interior, and J rests. The Oneway gets the most use, but all of them do get used. The one thing I feel is superior in the Robust rests, is the top is narrower. This means the resting surface of the tool rest can be positioned a little closer to the work. That is an advantage in certain situations where ultimate control is desired. The hardened steel rod also allows the tool to slide a little better. Robust is the better overall engineered tool rest......but, alas, the Oneway has the more useful curvature to it.

When the tool rest varies the least amount of distance between the resting surface and the work-piece, the better advantage it is for controlling the cut. When this distance varies, the fulcrum varies.....and, the amount of downward pressure created by the resistance of the wood being cut also varies.

-----odie-----

 

[john lucas]

Have you thought about using a Hunter #4 or #5 tool. Since the cutter is mounted flat when you use it as a bevel rubbing tool the handle is almost straight out. So a curved tool rest that goes into the bowl pretty far might let you get in there without having too much hanging over the rest. Wouldn't be good for hogging off wood but would be perfect for final clean up. A heavy negative rake scraper might also work in this situation. In fact the new Hunter Viceroy should work. You can hang a fair amount over a tool rest with that tool. I'll try a few cuts this after noon hanging it over the tool rest and see. Don't have any videos with the Viceroy tool yet. Here is a video showing the Hunter #4 if you not familiar with it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo

 

[robo hippy]

I used to use the Oneway inside bowl rest, but didn't like it because when working out on the end of it, it would bounce. I did have a black smith/ metal worker bend a large J hook and weld it to about a 2 inch round post that had a 1 inch post coming out the bottom, and the large part would sit on the top of the banjo keeping it at exact height. Tools did not slide well along the top though. You can take a piece of A2 drill rod and bend and epoxy it to the top and it slides better than any of the other metals I have seen except for the hardened A2. If you drop it and it lands on the drill rod, it will come off, but easy to epoxy back on.

robo hippy

 

[Mike Johnson]

If I were having to deal with this challenge I would purchase a 24" length of carbon steel
and use a torch to heat it and put a 90 degree bend at one end and mount it in the banjo
and check the horizontal level and make adjustments until it is perfectly level.
Another option would be an articulated extension arm that mounts to the banjo, this would
gain depth into the bowl and you could still use your existing tool rest on the extension. A
welding shop could make one of these or if you know someone that has a welder you could
fabricate one yourself. All you really need is a heavy flat steel bar that you can drill a hole on one
end to receive the tool rest and a mounting post on the other end for your banjo.

 

[George Guadiane]

George I do have one but I wanted to stick to a bowl gouge if possible.

Personally, I would have used the hollowing setup and started the next thing. Unless, of course, you're just looking for a means to justify getting some more tools?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Another thing to consider is that the buyer doesn't know nor care what tools you used.

 

[Odie]

Another thing to consider is that the buyer doesn't know nor care what tools you used.

Well, sort of, Bill......The buyer doesn't know, nor care what tools you use......only if the end result isn't noticeably finer than when using tools that don't work as well. In other words, just about any method of hogging out the interior will work, as long as power sanding can take over to produce a smooth usable surface . If the intent is to have planes that intersect in crisp corners, and visually appealing detail grooves, then the only way to make that happen, is to have a tooled surface that requires a minimum of sanding. If it requires a minimum of sanding, it will by default be more geometrically perfect.

-----odie-----

 

[Bill Boehme]

Well, sort of, Bill......The buyer doesn't know, nor care what tools you use......only if the end result isn't noticeably finer than when using tools that don't work as well. In other words, just about any method of hogging out the interior will work, as long as power sanding can take over to produce a smooth usable surface . If the intent is to have planes that intersect in crisp corners, and visually appealing detail grooves, then the only way to make that happen, is to have a tooled surface that requires a minimum of sanding. If it requires a minimum of sanding, it will by default be more geometrically perfect.

-----odie-----

I purposely used the word "buyer" to indicate someone who has already decided to buy the turning. Of course, you are more likely to have a "buyer" if the turning is well done with a beautiful finish and attractive design. Otherwise, you might just have "lookers".

Geometric perfection may or may not be a player depending on what the turning happens to be.Wood is something that never ceases to move so what may have been precisely round at one time is likely to move a little or a lot depending on the wood and its state of dryness. But even the most stable wood won't be absolutely micrometer precise forever. And sometimes the more warping the greater the attraction. Buyers are as varied in their interests as are woodturners.

 

[Odie]

I purposely used the word "buyer" to indicate someone who has already decided to buy the turning. Of course, you are more likely to have a "buyer" if the turning is well done with a beautiful finish and attractive design. Otherwise, you might just have "lookers".

Geometric perfection may or may not be a player depending on what the turning happens to be.Wood is something that never ceases to move so what may have been precisely round at one time is likely to move a little or a lot depending on the wood and its state of dryness. But even the most stable wood won't be absolutely micrometer precise forever. And sometimes the more warping the greater the attraction. Buyers are as varied in their interests as are woodturners.

Yes, of course......all true, Bill. However the bowl only needs to be as close to geometric perfection as possible at the time the details are being worked out. After that, it really doesn't matter how the bowl moves, because the integrity of the details aren't then effected by subsequent warping!

Well.......unless we are discussing cracking, or lamination with dissimilar woods that move unequally.

-----odie-----

 

[Bill Boehme]

Yes, of course......all true, Bill. However the bowl only needs to be as close to geometric perfection as possible at the time the details are being worked out. After that, it really doesn't matter how the bowl moves, because the integrity of the details aren't then effected by subsequent warping!

Good point. That should have occurred to me since I do basket illusion pieces.

This reminds me of something that I wouldn't recommend to others, but I have found it to be necessary when a really thin piece wants to warp and flex while beading ... which happens more often than not. I run the lathe at a very slow speed and wearing heavy leather work gloves, I basically clamp the wood with my hands to minimize the flexing and do the beading ... sometimes with my right hand on the toolrest so that the beading tool is off the rest and free to float and follow the bead. Like I said, I don't recommend this. I think that I forget to breathe sometimes while doing this.

 

[olaf Vogel]

Here's my custom rest: 28" wide, 16" on one side, 12" on the other.
With this and captive bar, I've gone 24" deep.

Cost me $120 to have made up, including materials.
Not fancy, but it works.



There's zero bounce or flex on this thing.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Go big or go home!

 

[Don C Davis]

I would log into IAP and look on the vendor forums and hunt down Rick Harrel, he builds custom tools and makes fantastic tool rests--of course I have only bought 'normal' sized ones, but he's a no BS kind of guy and he will tell you what he thinks, and what an alternate solution may be if he doesn't want to build what you're after. He uses excellent materials, and his workmanship is second to none!

 

[Robert Arnold]

Here is the most recent bowl that caused me to write this post. 24" wide and 14" deep.

 

[robo hippy]

Olaf, before I read the post, I thought that was a metal spinning tool rest....or is it a 'multi use' tool...

robo hippy

Here's my custom rest: 28" wide, 16" on one side, 12" on the other.
With this and captive bar, I've gone 24" deep.

Cost me $120 to have made up, including materials.
Not fancy, but it works.

View attachment 24664

There's zero bounce or flex on this thing.

 

[john lucas]

I thought it was a metal spinning tool rest also.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Looking at the OP’s picture, it seems he is using a scraper to remove the inside wood, rather than a bowl gouge or other cutting tool, and you would want the scraper to not hang too far over the rest, or as Reed was saying the tool will start to bounce or the rest.
I have made a couple of J and reverse J rests, they work fine, but I do use gouges for the wood removal, scraper only for cleaning the cutting lines if any, my rest do not bounce in how I use them, but have no experience in heavy scraper use on them, again, making a couple of long reach toolrest isn’t hard to do, just make them strong enough, a 1” post will probably not do.


This doesn’t show much of the rest or use, but this is the only picture I have using this rest I think.

 

[Raul McCai]

I just cut some 1" bar stock and often some 3/8" thick flat stock and weld it up and presto instant exotic rest. My suggestion is get a welder. and an angle grinder. When using a scraper a long flat wide thick rest is ( for me) Da Bomb~!!

 

[olaf Vogel]

Olaf, before I read the post, I thought that was a metal spinning tool rest....or is it a 'multi use' tool...

robo hippy

Hi Robo,

Yes it’s a metal spinning style tool rest. But only used for Woodturning.
I do mostly large work, greens wood. I took a long look at how Ed Moultroup did his pieces and this was one of the different techinques.

So I figure I’d try it. And it works extremely well.

(In general I’ve been looking at metal lathes, spinning, milling etc, to see if different methods might be used to accomplish new goals.)

When doing large pieces, that are rough and there’s non continuous contact with the wood, it’s really hard to keep the chisel pivot point firm with just your hand.

So in this case, I work off the pin, on the rest.

With a 3 foot long chisel, and a 2” overhang, this allows incredible accuracy.
The hard steel pin does not have any give....unlike your hands.

Try that that with a 28” winged bowl.

That pivot is even more important when hollowing or working 8” off the tool rest.

So, yes. It’s a metal spinning rest, but works very well for wood.

 

[olaf Vogel]

Robert,

Nice bowl! Good size.How did you like leaning over for hours?

Compare that to Leo’s pics where he’s working the “wrong” side.
He’s fortunate in being able to work off the end of the lathe.

Iets assume that’s over the bed. Spinning the opposite direction would be beneficial.
With a long chisel, a metal spinning rest and a pivot, you could work the bowl without contorting yourself too lean over.

It gets worse when doing a large hollow form.
Last year I did a 26” dia, 14” deep hollow form, with a 6” opening. Killed my back...
And got me thinking there might be another way....

 

[Odie]

So, yes. It’s a metal spinning rest, but works very well for wood.

Is there a source for purchasing these metal spinning rests?......or, are they all completely handmade?

-----odie-----

 

[Marshall Sadler]

Oneway sells three versions, a 24" swing, a 20" swing and a 16" swing. They might not be as heavy duty as Olaf's, but they should work for the rest of us. Only problem with the Oneway rests is they are $131.95; ten dollars more than Olaf's. The Oneway Catalog says that it also includes an "Anti-Rotational Clamp Plate." That may be where some of the extra cost comes from, but you could have a machinist make that too. The Oneway Catalog shows a picture of a 2436 with a array of large copper spheres, vases and other assorted items, all of which are impressive.

 

[Mike Johnson]

You could purchase a piece of cold rolled steel the dimension you need and spend a day drilling the holes into the steel bar. You can also purchase the steel round stock the dimension you need to fit your banjo and complete the metal spinning toolrest assembly yourself. An easy project if you have a drill press and good quality drill bits. Mounting the round stock to the toolrest can be done in a various number of ways, press fit, set screws, welding, epoxy, drill and pin. You don't need tool steel for this project unless you want to spend a week drilling holes and have and endless supply of high quality drill bits!

 

[hockenbery]

When you make bigger tool rests, as Leo said you need a bigger post
You might try to figure out how to mount a ONEWAY outboard it’s banjo takes a 1.5” post.

We all know vibration increases when we work further from the center of the rest
Larger tool posts reduces vibration.

In deep hollowing the idea is to work close to the post on the tool rest.
And a 1” post can take a lot of force applied above the post
Less force on the end of the rest.

 

[olaf Vogel]

You could purchase a piece of cold rolled steel the dimension you need and spend a day drilling the holes into the steel bar. You can also purchase the steel round stock the dimension you need to fit your banjo and complete the metal spinning toolrest assembly yourself.

Which is exactly what I did.
Drilling the holes was tedious, and took about 2 hrs.
But you need a good press. I’ve got an old Barnes camelback with autofeed
Low rpm, lots of torque, lots of downforce plus oil = drill bit was fine at the end.

I cut the gussets from flat stock and bought the right dia. Post. 1-3/4”
My blacksmith did the welding.

The pivot pins are grade 8 bolts and washers welded together.

When you make bigger tool rests, as Leo said you need a bigger postYou might try to figure out how to mount a ONEWAY outboard it’s banjo takes a 1.5” post.

We all know vibration increases when we work further from the center of the rest
Larger tool posts reduces vibration.

In deep hollowing the idea is to work close to the post on the tool rest.
And a 1” post can take a lot of force applied above the post
Less force on the end of the rest.

Exactly. So the flat top is 2” square. Bloody heavy.

I swing the rest as close as possible. Then use a long chisel.
It’s 3/4” Thompson, slide inside a pipe that’s 4’ long.
Set screws hold the chisel. Rope and hockey tape on the grippy end,
Not pretty, but functional.

Working off the pivot pin provides a lot of control
And my left hand is nowhere near rotating parts.

If I go deeper, then I have a larger, heavier handle with a captive bar system.