The CBN wheels are popular right now.........but.......

[Odie]

.

I am speaking strictly theoretically here, because I don't have a CBN wheel. These wheels are probably very popular because they are available in finer grits than composite wheels. Straight from the grinder, I can see how the edge on gouges will be sharper than a composite wheel will leave.

I have been using a premium Norton SG wheel 80gt for years, and it's not for sharpening at all! Huh......What, you say? 🙄

That reaction is understandable. My grinder serves no other purpose than to remove and shape metal. Both sides of my gouge edge are honed to a razor sharp edge.....by hand! 600gt on the bevel, and 400gt to remove the burr from inside the flute.

When it comes down to it, the edge one gets straight from a CBN wheel is probably acceptable for all cuts, with the exception of the very final finishing cuts. There, since the object is to eliminate as much sanding as possible, I don't understand how it's possible to get as sharp an edge from a CBN wheel that is less than 600gt to begin with........😕 (That is, unless honing is done on the bevel side of the cutting edge afterwards. In that case, the CBN will be inconsequential to the resulting edge it's possible to attain anyway.)

It is possible that a CBN wheel may remove metal as well as a composite wheel, and in that case, might do just as well for that particular purpose. I don't think the CBNs are used for general shaping, but strictly for sharpening.....am I right about that?

Someday, I may get a CBN wheel for experimenting, but am not feeling like spending the money for improvements that seem unlikely. I can certainly see how many turners are going to get instant improvements in the sharpness, over and above what they were getting from a composite wheel......if they are going straight from the grinder to the lathe.

The burr on a scraper may be an entirely different matter. I hope to get some feedback on the differences you are seeing with the burr on scrapers with the CBN wheel vs any of the composite wheels.

For my style of turning, the ONLY thing that counts is to maintain integrity of shape, and the ONLY thing that will do that, is a tool surface that requires a minimum of sanding. One of the several things that will accomplish that......is a sharp edge.

ko




.

 

[john lucas]

An 80 grit CBN wheel would be great for shaping. I don't have one yet. I have a 180 I can easily start sanding with 220 grit right off the 180 wheel if I've done my job well enough with the gouge. I do home sometimes with a 600 grit diamond home for problem woods.

 

[robo hippy]

I was talking to Stuart Batty about them last summer in Phoenix because he was using one in his booth. He made the comment that they were not good for shaping. I agree. The 80 grit wheels will remove metal faster than 80 grit standard wheels, but for heavy shaping of tools, the CBN wheels can be easily outdone by a 40 grit belt sander. That being said, Dave Schweitzer has a 10 inch 40 grit wheel on a high speed Jet grinder. That thing will remove a lot of steel.

As to how fine of an edge they leave, the only way to be sure is some micro photography. How fine of an edge do they leave? Well, from observation, a new CBN wheel will leave an edge that is not polished. The broken in ones, and it takes a week or month or three depending on how much use they get, will leave a very polished/shiny edge. Optigrind has a 400 grit wheel now, and I have never tried it, so can't compare. I tried some honing on my bowl gouges, and didn't find the results worth the effort. The biggest or most important thing to me is a high shear angle for a clean cut, and the actual grit doesn't seem to change that much. I have heard a couple of turners who refused to use 80 grit wheels because they didn't want 80 grit scratches in their work. That doesn't make sense to me, because I have turned many bowls with tools sharpened on 80 grit wheels and I could start sanding at 150 to 220 grit abrasives, and you can't remove 80 grit abrasive scratches with 150 or 220 grit abrasives. Well, maybe you could, but you would spend hours.

I can't remember scraper burrs from the standard wheels because it has been that long since I have used one, and that is maybe 10 years, not last week (The memory is the second thing that goes as you age.... Can't remember what was first...). I can do all the roughing on a 14 inch bowl and same on the inside without having to regrind the burr. I got about the same results from a burnished burr. I do sharpen right side up. Some say the upside down method produces a sharper burr, but not very sturdy. I will make sure to corner Jimmy Clewes about that at the Oregon Woodturning Symposium here in March because last time I talked to him, he had just gotten a CBN wheel but hadn't tried it out.

robo hippy

 

[Hu Lowery]

anybody know what grits they are comparing?

As far as I know, in the manmade stones there is no way to orient the grit. Sandpaper uses static electricity to glue the pointy side up on the grit particles. Do the CBN manufacturers also orient pointy side up? If they do, are we then comparing apples and oranges when we talk an eighty grit stone and an eighty grit CBN wheel?

Hu

 

[robo hippy]

Well Hu, you asked a question I hadn't heard yet. I do know the process of getting the grit onto the wheels is done by electroplating, but don't know if that involves electrostatic orientation of the grit or not. One would think that 80 grit is 80 grit, but that may be like abrasives. The cheaper stuff, which used to be sifted through a grit screen, has a much broader curve of grit variation than the electrostatic type stuff. 80 grit CBN does take off metal faster than 80 grit standard wheels.

robo hippy

 

[Roger Chandler]

I use a 60 grit Norton SG wheel on one side and a 180 grit CBN on the other side of my grinder, for two years. As soon as it is feasible for me, I am going to get an 80 grit to replace the Norton matrix wheel, as its diameter is shrinking pretty good now.

Where honing may take a few minutes to get perfect, on a bowl gouge, I can get a polished edge with my CBN in seconds and as John mentioned I can start sanding at 220 grit.....on some woods 320 grit.

I use shear cutting and shear scraping cuts a lot.........I would not go back to matrix wheels unless I could not find a CBN to purchase...........your mileage may vary!

You can shape pretty well with an 80 grit CBN wheel.......I have seen it done.......it may take a few minutes longer to establish the grind if you are changing it in a big way or have a new gouge to put a grind onto, but I still think the edge is far superior to a matrix wheel and no dust, no dressing required and the balanced wheels just allow for your grinder to run smooth as silk.........

 

[Steve Worcester]

...
It is possible that a CBN wheel may remove metal as well as a composite wheel, and in that case, might do just as well for that particular purpose. I don't think the CBNs are used for general shaping, but strictly for sharpening.....am I right about that?
.

It is commonly accepted that the finer the grit, the cleaner the cut. The cleanliness of the cut is in the hands of the operator more than the grit of the wheel. In the right hands an 80 or 120 sharpened gouge will go right to a finish or no sand depending what the operator wants to accomplish. I personally find honing a gouge to be futile and a waste of time. A 600+ grit edge goes way down in sharpness as soon as it hits wood. Furthermore, the exotic metals don't get as sharp as a generic HSS but they will hold that level of sharpness longer. With that said, if it works for you, great. Carry on.

I use an 80 grit CBN for shaping and a 120 for general sharpening.

 

[idahohay]

Steve, you couldn't have said it better. Especially the part about honing.

 

[Odie]

It is commonly accepted that the finer the grit, the cleaner the cut. The cleanliness of the cut is in the hands of the operator more than the grit of the wheel. In the right hands an 80 or 120 sharpened gouge will go right to a finish or no sand depending what the operator wants to accomplish. I personally find honing a gouge to be futile and a waste of time. A 600+ grit edge goes way down in sharpness as soon as it hits wood. Furthermore, the exotic metals don't get as sharp as a generic HSS but they will hold that level of sharpness longer. With that said, if it works for you, great. Carry on.

I use an 80 grit CBN for shaping and a 120 for general sharpening.

Yes, that does seem to be the general opinion about honing for the many.......but, it doesn't hold up to a sharper edge in combination with skilled use of the tool. In the end, the only thing that counts is the quality of the cut, and some turners seem to be satisfied with less than is possible. My guess is some turners aren't aware of what the possibilities are......!

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Yes, that does seem to be the general opinion about honing for the many.......but, it doesn't hold up to a sharper edge in combination with skilled use of the tool. In the end, the only thing that counts is the quality of the cut, and some turners seem to be satisfied with less than is possible. My guess is some turners aren't aware of what the possibilities are......! ko

I agree with you whole heartedly that many turners are not aware of what is possible.
A,great way to see what is possible is to take a week class at a craft school like Arromont or Campbell or a class in a turners studio like
Ellsworth, Bosch, Clewes and many others.
Another way is visit the instant gallery at a symposium, what an eye opening experience.

Al

 

[Odie]

This is an opinion.......but, learning to be critical of one's self and dealing with the observations, conclusions, and self motivated corrective actions are far more important to "individuality" as it relates to progress, than "group think".

ko

 

[James Seyfried]

Another way is visit the instant gallery at a symposium, what an eye opening experience.

Al

I went to the Ohio Valley Woodturning Symposium a couple of years ago (a first for me) and I was amazed and humbled at the range and quality of all the unique pieces posted in the instant gallery. There are many exceptionally talented and accomplished woodturners that don't post their work online. And that is just one facet of the experience.

 

[hockenbery]

I went to the Ohio Valley Woodturning Symposium a couple of years ago (a first for me) and I was amazed and humbled at the range and quality of all the unique pieces posted in the instant gallery. There are many exceptionally talented and accomplished woodturners that don't post their work online. And that is just one facet of the experience.

As you point out, a small percentage of turners post on the forums. Those that do bring a wealth of information!
Contributions from turners of all experience levels extend my knowledge and understanding.

I see the forum is a tiny tip of the woodturning field iceberg.
I have formed perceptions of hundreds of turners from from my experience with AAW symposium, regional symposiums, and organizing workshops. While turning is not a competition, getting into shows and being invited/selected to demonstrate at clubs and symposiums is. In an informal way my mind organizes these turners into tier one and tier two turners. The tier one turners (50) are creating unique work sought widely by collectors or those that just flat out use the tools better than anyone else and they get invited to demonstrate at AAW. The tier 2 (200) are excellent turners with some unique work, they get invited to regional symposiums and they get chosen for AAW through the application process.
We have the good fortune to have a dozen or so tier two turners active on this forum. Threeon my tier one list who have posted in the past year are: Betty Scarpino,Mark Lindquist and John Jordan.

The great thing about woodturning is our sharing and accepting culture. I can always learn something from a turner picking up a tool,for the first time.
I still get awestruck and amazed by the tier one turners.

Al

 

[Steve Worcester]

This is an opinion.......but, learning to be critical of one's self and dealing with the observations, conclusions, and self motivated corrective actions are far more important to "individuality" as it relates to progress, than "group think".

ko

This sort of getting away from your original post, but I think that the individual needs some foundation to start from (in woodturning), that's were this sort of venue assists.
From there, the individual needs to find a direction, should they choose to. But at the same time, never stop learning and seeking.

I am my own worst critic, but I have also learned from my mistakes, and laughed from them. Taking yourself too seriously can be more detrimental than learning from it.

 

[Odie]

This sort of getting away from your original post, but I think that the individual needs some foundation to start from (in woodturning), that's were this sort of venue assists.
From there, the individual needs to find a direction, should they choose to. But at the same time, never stop learning and seeking.

I am my own worst critic, but I have also learned from my mistakes, and laughed from them. Taking yourself too seriously can be more detrimental than learning from it.

I don't mind, Steve.

The thread can go anywhere, as long as it's still related to woodturning as a general theme. As well, I am my own most stubborn critic! As I see it, if I want to take my interests and achievements to the highest level I am capable of, there is no alternative to it. I do believe you're being a bit trite by using the cliché: "taking yourself too seriously", though. It all depends on where you set your own personal goals, and how important they are to you. I will probably never achieve my personal woodturning goals, but that doesn't mean that being absolutely serious about maintaining continual progress towards that end isn't a good motivational tool for me.

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

I had a different understanding of the phrase "taking yourself too seriously". To me, it said to avoid developing an inflated perception of oneself.

 

[Odie]

I had a different understanding of the phrase "taking yourself too seriously". To me, it said to avoid developing an inflated perception of oneself.

That would be true as well, Bill.......

However, sometimes confidence in one's abilities can be seen that way, and because of that, it could be thought that way of those who have the desire/will to pursue their own path without having a guide to show the way. I guess you could say there are advantages and disadvantages of either mode of making progress. One leads to individual triumphs and disappointments, while the other leads to progress without the knowledge of why that progress was made.....all along, not knowing there are other, and possibly as good, or better ways of reaching their goals. The advantage in that is progress can certainly be made, but without the total knowledge of the why. The disadvantage of that is not knowing what self-determination to solve problems might have led to. Maybe we could discuss why this is, or isn't important....? As I see it, if I have successes that are the result of doing things that aren't considered "main stream", it ultimately becomes the substance of individuality!

There is nothing wrong with either way to attain goals, but the majority will choose one, while the minority will choose the other. Both will probably wonder why the other chooses to pursue their own methods of achieving their own individual goals, because each will feel satisfaction in their own progress.

ko

 

[hockenbery]

......One leads to individual triumphs and disappointments, while the other leads to progress without the knowledge of why that progress was made, not knowing there are other, and possibly better ways of reaching goals. ko

A great endorsement for interaction with other turners.

The Founders of AAW had this grand concept that by bringing together turners who had developed in isolation they each could learn from each other and move forward at faster paces. From that concept of sharing came the AAW symposium, the local chapters, the regional symposiums, the journal.....

Perhaps the best thing any serious turner can do is participate in a national or regional symposium.
The instant gallery make you aware of what others are making and let's you share what you are making with others.
Demonstrations provide opportunities to see different methods and a way for the demonstrator to share what they have learned.

Individuals attending will get hundreds of new ideas, learn refinements of techniques they have mastered, and add new methods to the tool kit.

If your focus is bowls. There will be 10 different Bowl demos (7 will be given) twice.

Ashley Harwood Rim and Foot Design on a Bowl
David Ellsworth Natural Edge Open Bowl (from half log)
David Ellsworth Open Bowl (from half log)
Jerry Kermode Beginning Bowls and Plates
Jerry Kermode Natural-edge Bowls with a Stitch
Lyle Jamieson Foundations of Bowl Turning
Mark Baker Classical tazza
Neil Turner Open form with coral texture
Stephen Hatcher Creating Unique Bowl and Platter Accents
Stuart Batty Bowl Turning with the 40/40 Grind

 

[robo hippy]

If it was close enough for me to drive to, I would, then I could bring a lathe so I could turn in my space. Next time it is closer to me I will. I think I remember when the Symposium was in Portland there was a lathe set up in the vendor area that had demonstrations going just about all day.

I have to do some thing stupid/silly at least once a day.... Some times I don't even have to try...

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

If it was close enough for me to drive to, I would, then I could bring a lathe so I could turn in my space. Next time it is closer to me I will. I think I remember when the Symposium was in Portland there was a lathe set up in the vendor area that had demonstrations going just about all day. I have to do some thing stupid/silly at least once a day.... Some times I don't even have to try... robo hippy

Reed it can't be but about 2500 miles.

🙂 Where is your sense of adventure
You could pick up Kelly on the way. 🙂

It is a long way. I would not drive that far unless I had a few long stops along the way.

Al

 

[Rick Doganiero]

The honing vs non-honing debate rears it head in our woodturners club a few times a year like a seasonal allergy. There are 2 schools of thought the non-honer, CBN worshipers who think it is a monumental waste of time and the honers who feel that honing is the only way to woodturning enlightenment. Neither side willing to budge an inch.

I have honed my tools (never by hand) by way of a Tormek grinder years ago when I first started turning. I no longer do so, soley based on the time. I hold no ill feelings toward those that hone. I currently sharpen with a CBN wheels but I am not ready to join the crusade.


I have a few thoughts / questions I'd like to throw into this discussion. Not because I want to fan the flames just to hear peoples thought processes.

1) Hand honing: are you really getting a sharper edge? Can you control your honing stone to perfectly match the grind from you grinding stone? Are you rounding over the edge and making the edge less sharp? I'd like to know if a hand honed edge is actually sharper or "feels" sharper because the small burr on the edge has been removed. Those that have high power microscopy can you show me the edge of a tool before and after hand honing.

2) How sharp is sharp: Once your hand honed tool is placed to the wood it begins to be worn down and lose its sharpness. At some point it will be, or may be (... again more microscopy needed) less sharp than the tool coming off a CBN wheel. At that point you are actually using an inferior tool and producing results that are suboptimal. So in the end does it "really" matter how sharp the edge.

3) What about the angle are you grinding toward..... uhh oh.... better not even go there.

Rick D

 

[robo hippy]

If I had a month or so off, I would drive it. Early June, join dad, brothers, and a couple of others for fishing on conservation lake in NW Ontario. AAW Symposium end of June, then second weekend in July the Oregon Country Fair, known locally as 'the hippy fair' the only show I do any more. Most fun and most entertaining. Now, for the first time ever, pot will be legal there.... I quit over 20 years ago though, so no different for me.

I really want the Star Trek Transporters......

robo hippy

 

[Odie]

The honing vs non-honing debate rears it head in our woodturners club a few times a year like a seasonal allergy. There are 2 schools of thought the non-honer, CBN worshipers who think it is a monumental waste of time and the honers who feel that honing is the only way to woodturning enlightenment. Neither side willing to budge an inch.

I have honed my tools (never by hand) by way of a Tormek grinder years ago when I first started turning. I no longer do so, soley based on the time. I hold no ill feelings toward those that hone. I currently sharpen with a CBN wheels but I am not ready to join the crusade.


I have a few thoughts / questions I'd like to throw into this discussion. Not because I want to fan the flames just to hear peoples thought processes.

1) Hand honing: are you really getting a sharper edge? Can you control your honing stone to perfectly match the grind from you grinding stone? Are you rounding over the edge and making the edge less sharp? I'd like to know if a hand honed edge is actually sharper or "feels" sharper because the small burr on the edge has been removed. Those that have high power microscopy can you show me the edge of a tool before and after hand honing.

2) How sharp is sharp: Once your hand honed tool is placed to the wood it begins to be worn down and lose its sharpness. At some point it will be, or may be (... again more microscopy needed) less sharp than the tool coming off a CBN wheel. At that point you are actually using an inferior tool and producing results that are suboptimal. So in the end does it "really" matter how sharp the edge.

3) What about the angle are you grinding toward..... uhh oh.... better not even go there.

Rick D

Early to bed, and to rise.....makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise! (Well, one out of three ain't bad!.....and, that could be debated! 😛)

Howdy Xraydog.......(great handle!)

I really don't care what others do....hone or not. It's not about anything other than what each of us are satisfied with. I hone, and I do it by hand. I take it to the next level, and hone both the bevel and the flute.

Yes, I do feel that a hand honed edge is sharper than coming straight off the grinding wheel, but the finer the wheel grit, the less difference between the two it will make. This, of course, depends on some level of sharpening skill, either way. I agree 100% that a hand honed super sharp edge will only last momentarily. Does this mean it won't be useful for the 15 seconds of use it's good for? I think not, but I do continually hone, truing up the edge as I go. Most turners probably won't put up with this, and they won't have the benefit of that super sharp edge either. I guess it all depends on how important that honed edge is to a turners style of turning, and how much inconvenience he's willing to put up with! (Keep in mind that if a turner is using light passes with the tool, and using the edge in sections, he'll have more than 15 seconds of usefulness to an edge, overall. All bets are off with heavy cuts!)

How sharp a tool is, is only one component of an equation with several important components. Just because an edge is sharp, doesn't mean a turner has the ability to take advantage of it. A microscopic photo would be good to see......I'd enjoy seeing it, but I wouldn't be completely certain how well it would apply, unless it's my own honed edge I'm seeing. (I've developed my own style of honing by hand, that I feel few others are using.)

Have a good day, all........Physical exam today. Need to meet with my younger son, and even though I'm now officially retired, I'm still working part-time!......I need to finish up a job that's getting overdue there. It will be a busy day! 🙂

ko

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

It seems to me that everyone could agree to disagree and get on with the turning. Neither side has been convinced and I did not see any incontrovertible evidence to prove either argument.
So lets part friends and find another more constructive subject.

 

[Odie]

It seems to me that everyone could agree to disagree and get on with the turning. Neither side has been convinced and I did not see any incontrovertible evidence to prove either argument.
So lets part friends and find another more constructive subject.

Gerald.......

I think you are reading into these posts things which aren't there. I am not seeing anyone trying to prove anything, but I am seeing a discussion with different viewpoints.

BTW: If you'd like to add to the discussion, your input on subject would be welcome.

ko

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Kelly I have the CBN from Wooden Wonders for about 2 months (been out of turning for 4 weeks due to finger injury) and I love it. It sharpens faster than white wheels and no toxic dust. As to honing I do (need a new diamond hone) but it does not seem to make as large a difference with the CBN as it did on the old wheels.
The thing about sharpening is experience. The next best and greatest machine is mostly a matter of opinion. I think we should be sharing technique and what has and has not worked for us. My "opinion" or yours is not worth the paper (oops no paper) it is written on unless you can back it up with solid experience for facts.
Did not mean to demean in previous post.......but this is getting way off subject and no new info is comeing.

 

[Odie]

Kelly I have the CBN from Wooden Wonders for about 2 months (been out of turning for 4 weeks due to finger injury) and I love it. It sharpens faster than white wheels and no toxic dust. As to honing I do (need a new diamond hone) but it does not seem to make as large a difference with the CBN as it did on the old wheels.
The thing about sharpening is experience. The next best and greatest machine is mostly a matter of opinion. I think we should be sharing technique and what has and has not worked for us. My "opinion" or yours is not worth the paper (oops no paper) it is written on unless you can back it up with solid experience for facts.
Did not mean to demean in previous post.......but this is getting way off subject and no new info is comeing.

Howdy Gerald.....

I think you made a significant observation when you mentioned that honing doesn't make as much a difference with the CBN vs your older white wheels. I don't know what grit your CBN wheels are, but they are generally finer grits than composite wheels are......and those tend to overheat steel much too quickly with anything 120grit and up. As I said previously, I haven't used a CBN in my home shop, but do use a slow speed diamond coated plate for sharpening carbide cutters at work. I asked in another thread about slowing the grinder rpm down some......and, I'd like to do some experimenting with a slower speed, particularly with harder steels. Don't know if there would be any benefit to that, but who knows? I have done a lot of experimenting with lathe tools the past 33 years, and much of it has been wasted effort......but, there have been a few observations that led me to a different understanding, and ways of applying new knowledge to my turning.

BTW: This is my thread, and I don't mind at all if the subject matter varies with the conversation. If anyone has any related thoughts, I welcome it.

ko

 

[robo hippy]

Gerald,
There is fine metal dust that floats in the air that is generated when you sharpen on a CBN wheel. I have an article posted on my web site, and a link here somewhere, but I found dust inside a closed cardboard box that was about 2 feet above the grinder. The box had a magnetic lamp base in it.

The CBN, at slow or high speed generates less heat than standard wheels. Not sure exactly, and that is even with the fine grit and the 180 grit wheels. I haven't tried the 400 grit wheels yet though.

robo hippy

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Gerald,
There is fine metal dust that floats in the air that is generated when you sharpen on a CBN wheel. I have an article posted on my web site, and a link here somewhere, but I found dust inside a closed cardboard box that was about 2 feet above the grinder. The box had a magnetic lamp base in it.

The CBN, at slow or high speed generates less heat than standard wheels. Not sure exactly, and that is even with the fine grit and the 180 grit wheels. I haven't tried the 400 grit wheels yet though.

robo hippy

You have a point that there is still dust, or metal flake. This is not the toxic dust that comes off the white wheels and can fill the air. A thought on this is that with CBN the grinding time is much shorter (or is for me) than with other wheels and therefore less particulate creation and therefore less "dust"

 

[Terry Vaughan]

There is fine metal dust that floats in the air

robo hippy

If you set a propane blowtorch running with a clean blue flame then grind some tools on the other side of the workshop you will see tiny sparkles appear in the flame. I found this using the blue wheel on my grinder as I don't yet have a CBN one. Whether there is enough metal dust in the air to do harm I don't know, but of course when you are grinding you are right in front of the machine.

Terry

 

[john lucas]

I used to have a cloud appear after sharpening on my White Wheels. I don't notice that cloud at all with the CBN however I do notice a lot of debris below the wheel. Now how much really small stuff that you can't see is in the air I can't say.