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Tear out soaking solutions

A

Alex Ku

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Guys,

I am using thin CA glue on small bowls to help with tear out.
Since CA is expensive I am looking for alternatives.
Here is what I found so far but have not tried yet:

1. Soaking in a 50/50 mix of white glue and water will work. Soak for several hours and let it dry overnight.

2. Soak the wood in Lacquer that has been thinned 50/50 with lacquer thinner. Cons: lacquer clogs sand paper.

3. Apply Johnson's paste wax. Acts as a lubricant to prevent tearout.
Cons Does not penetrate.

4. Epoxy System 3 Mirror Coat. $55 for 1.5 quart.
Cons. Expensive but 1.5 quart should go long way. 1.5 quart of CA would cost more.

Please let me know if you have already tried any of these and what is your opinion.

Thanks,
Alex
 
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Steve is right one with his response. If you are using lacquer for your top coat, just use lacquer sanding sealer on your piece after rough out. If you're turning green to finish all in one setting, your tools may not be as sharp as needed for the wood you are turning.
 
You could apply some of your finish to help clean up tear out.

The obligatory sharp tool helps.
 
I generally use a 1-pound cut of ultra-blonde shellac as both a sanding sealer and a "stabilizer" for tear-out prone woods (my local "poster-child" species for this is box elder). Shellac is compatible with most film finishes (poly, lacquer, and of course shellac/"friction polish".....as well as even a few oil finishes. Above all, very sharp tools and good technique (including shear scraping/"slicing") are the best bets against tear-out.

I have heard that some turners have also used Minwax High Performance Wood Hardener to assist with stabilizing woods (i.e. punky woods/spalted areas, etc.), and to help with tear-out. I have not used this for "tear-out assistance" for turning, but I have used it to repair dry-rotted window trim, and it does do a good job stabilizing the wood. I have no idea how compatible its 'resins' are with subsequent finishes meant to show wood grain; it does take paint fairly well.

First step: sharpen your tools and technique.... then treat the wood when you're sure the former is no longer helping....

Rob Wallace
 
Alex,
unless the wood is really punky,
plain water will often eliminate tear out.

I keep a plant misting bottle in the shop. Mostly for re-hydrating hollow forms
to keep the thin part from drying while I'm hollowing out the bottom.

If I see a little tear out I sprtiz it with the water. This will cause the fibers to swell and lock against each other allowing a clean cut.

Remember to take light cuts and sharpen your tool as you near what will be the finished surface. Heavy cuts and dull tools encourage tear out.

With good quality wood the tear-out is there but you need a magnifying glass to see it and sanding with 220 will take it away.

for more stubborn punky wood that won't respond to water a shelac with twice the alchohol will work well. It will penetrate, dry in a few minutes, is compatible with most finishes, and the shelac locks the fibers together.

happy turning,
Al
 
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Minwax wood hardener. available at most Ace Hardware stores (last I checked, not at Lowes or Home Depot)
 
Alex I have a case right now that I'm dealing with and will have to try something new. It is a green piece of box elder. It is tearing out pretty bad on the endgrain sides of the bowl. I have tried the usual. Increase the speed, switch to 40 degree freshly sharpened and honed gouge, much better but still bad tearout in 2 areas.
It's already very wet so I tried the paste wax. No change. Soak with lacquer, better but still pretty bad in the 2 areas. I think maybe the lacquer isn't drying because the wood is so wet.
The areas are large enough I don't really want to use the thin CA. I have to go to town tomorrow morning anyway so I might get some of the woodhardner and see what it does.
I be listening to see if anyone else has suggestions. Most of the time the methods above work.
 
n7bsn said:
Minwax wood hardener. available at most Ace Hardware stores (last I checked, not at Lowes or Home Depot)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the "heads up" on the Minwax wood hardener, n7bsn.......

Here's a review of this product from someone who uses it to repair rotted wood while restoring old Victorian houses:

click:
http://www.epinions.com/content_171240230532

I'd like to know a little more about it, and how it applies to cleanly cutting difficult woods like spalt, knots, burl, swirly grain, etc. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who is looking for something that would be suitable to this specific purpose.

From what I can tell, it's a surface hardener, sort of like applying a "shell" covering over rotted wood......and suitable for PAINTED surfaces. I'm not sure how well this would work as a preparation for a block of wood, or a previously roughed bowl blank that still needs to be brought to a final shape by cutting with lathe tools......but, there is promise to it! 😉

As I sit here and think about it for a few moments, it occurred to me that the Minwax Wood Hardener might be more useful to a woodturner......IF......it's possible to impregnate the wood with it. I wonder if a roughed bowl which has been coated in the MWH (Minwax Wood Hardener), and placed in a pressurized container might do just that.......????? ! (Off hand, I'm thinking two engine oil pans with a gasket might do the trick! The oil drain plugs could serve as place to connect an air supply for pressurization.....you think?)

Most of us here have air compressors........(thinking).......and mine goes up to 180psi. I wonder if that would be enough pressure to accomplish the purpose of bringing the MWH to the interior of the wood on a roughed bowl......?

Now, assuming all that worked........how well would the dry impregnated MWH respond to your lathe cutting tools......? ......and, how well would a MWH prepared wood surface accept a final finish.......? Would all the effort serve to solve the problem of getting a clean cut on previously "punky" wood?

All of this was just "thinking out loud", of course........and if anyone has any comments, they are certainly invited.........😀

OOC
 
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Odie

I usually get down to the finish cuts, then apply the wood hardener. With the wood I use it on (spalted maple) it only appears to penetrate less then a 1/4 inch (5mm).

But it does respond well to shear cuts and usually does help provide a quality finish, without having to resort to the 36 grit gouge (yup, I've sometimes gone all that way)

TTFN
Ralph
 
I keep my tool pretty sharp. I sharpen it to 600 grit and then hone.
Cutting edge smoothly slices paper with very light pressure.

After rough turning is done I mostly use light slow shearing cuts
Still on some woods I have tearouts.
 
n7bsn said:
Odie

I usually get down to the finish cuts, then apply the wood hardener. With the wood I use it on (spalted maple) it only appears to penetrate less then a 1/4 inch (5mm).

But it does respond well to shear cuts and usually does help provide a quality finish, without having to resort to the 36 grit gouge (yup, I've sometimes gone all that way)

TTFN
Ralph
Click to expand...

Ralph......

36 grit gouge! Ha! 😀 Yeah, I know how you feel about that......and, there probably isn't a single person reading this thread that doesn't relate to the disappointment of having to resort to that. 😱

I can recall some punky wood in the past that was so bad that little chunks of wood would tear out of the grain.......not just your average tear-out. I guess it was this sort of thing that made my mind wander a little in my last post........you know, need for something that penetrates well enough to solidify very bad rot.

I have no idea if my pressurized engine oil pan idea would work, or not.......but, it might be worth a shot if all else fails. We've all seen some exceptionally beautiful wood with lots of rot......it'd be nice to find a way to preserve that beauty without the need for "oversanding" to compensate for the inevitable tear-out associated with that kind of rot.

For really bad cases of rot, I wonder if it's possible to apply a coat of the MWH, make a few cuts, then reapply MWH......until an acceptable result is achieved........? Might be a bit time consuming, but I've seen some chunks of wood with such beauty that it would be worth the extra effort.

Thanks for the come-back.

I am putting a note to purchase some MWH in my list of things to get....I'd like to give this stuff a little test run...........

OOC
 
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Alex Ku said:
I keep my tool pretty sharp. I sharpen it to 600 grit and then hone.
Cutting edge smoothly slices paper with very light pressure.

After rough turning is done I mostly use light slow shearing cuts
Still on some woods I have tearouts.
Click to expand...


Hi Alex.......

Pardon me, but it appears as if you and I were typing at the same time.

Yes, very true.......it's my belief that it's the nature of wood to occasionally run across some weak areas of grain structure that would frustrate the sharpest of tools......and the best of turners. It's not solely a matter of that grain pointing in a disadvantageous direction in relation to the rotation of the lathe spindle and tool presentation......it's also a matter of irregularities in the wood itself that tend to have a lack of surrounding support. These "irregularities" could be rot, grain pattern of burl, bark inclusions, etc......all tend to not support surrounding grain fibers.

ooc
 
Malcolm Tibbetts said:
I'll "second" Al's comment about the use of just plain water. I once did a couple of segmented bowls from Blatic birch plywood. Tear-out was definitely a problem. A damp sponge solved my problem.
Click to expand...

Hello Malcolm........

I believe Baltic Birch Plywood is the same wood Rude Osolnik was using for a time......I wonder if his experiences were the same as yours. I also wonder if the fact that the plywood is impregnated with glue has something to do with how well water responded to your efforts with this medium.....? Anyway, I believe he used the Baltic Birch Plywood for awhile, but eventually went on to other things........I guess we'll never know what his reasoning was for not pursuing the BBP.......

I'm sure all the advice given in this tread is useful for one application, or another......but, I'm pretty sure there isn't any one universal method that works for everything........?

ooc

BTW: I am a great admirer of your work......🙂
 
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Always fun to see this thread resurrected. Same set of answers about the hardeners and the softeners. Since both, as their proponents attest, work, it makes you think that there may be some unknown third factor involved, like paying special attention to presentation and control when difficult areas are encountered. I would say this paradox applies only to real tear-out, not the pecking of pieces out of punky delignified wood. There a substitute lignin like the resins used by the hardeners is of real benefit.

One thing I do know for sure, Odie, is that baltic birch plywood is made with water-resistant glue. Wiping won't dissolve it, a long soak might.
 
I use all these at times, and also use the wood restoration epoxy (amber hued) to recover woods. The remembering that viscosity and surface tension are keys to penetration helps get the better product for the situation. Small items that can fit into a gallon paint can (because of expense) allow soaks in Miniwax hardner and it does penetrate well into end grain over a few days of soaking. Hardens the fibers well, but it does tend to alter color to an amber hue.

Also use white glue and water mix in a Harbor frieght paint pot with 40-50 pounds of pressure to address checks or punky spots. I get 1/4 to 3/8 inch penetration and it does tend to address cracking. Down size is that it does lead to blotchy finishes if you cut through parts of it and do not seal the surfaces with clear dewaxed shellac before additional finishes.

The two part epoxy designed for rotted wood in boats does have a very thin viscosity and good wetting properties and will run through fine cracks all over the floor. Provides excellent crack penetration and good end grain penetration over about 24 hours until it sets up. Leaves an amber hue in the filler, but handles some cracks/checks and snotty end grain like nothing else I have found. Green masking tape seems to restrain it pretty well, but blue tape leaks.

Last, I have learned to be anal about sharp honed tool edges for final cuts in snotty grain to minimize the problem and as I get better at "shear scrape" cuts I need these crutches less.
 
I had the most tear out problems with Red Wood Burl. To see what is the wood structure like I took a razor sharp knife and "shaved" a piece of burl in different places. Some cross cuts looks OK but some reveal a sponge like wood structure here and there.
My guess that unless you fill it with something solid it'll produce tear out no matter what.

BTW I found online a new product called "Acri-soy" penetrating sealer. It is completely non-toxic.
Have anyone tried it?
 
I failed miserably to by some minwax wood hardener today. I'll try some paint stored monday. I was wondering if the various rot repair formulas will change the color of the wood. The wood I'm working with now is Box Elder and I don't want an ugly stain on it.
I'm going to attack it with sharp tools again tomorrow and maybe when I cut past what's torn now I'll have some decent wood.
 
Maple treated with wood hardner took a light amber color rather than whitish. It was not objectionable for the use I had, but it was different hued. I soaked the whole block and it was even hued.
 
Well so much for trying to get rid of the tearout in this bowl. I was actually doing pretty well. I soaked the tearout prone area with thinned lacquer. Then used my sharpest gouge, a higher speed on the lathe and slow feeding to reduce it to a couple of small 1" or so patches. I soaked these with thin CA and still didn't get rid of every last one but had it down to sanding with 80 or 100 grit. Shear scraping on this one didn't improve the finish quality any over the sharp gouge and may have even added a little bit of tearout.
I worked on the inside and had still had the same 2 areas but is seemed a little less prone to tearout using the 40 degree gouge. I had thinned it all down to the last 4 inches when I heard a funny noise. I shut the lathe off immediately. The bowl had cracked almost 6 inches down the side right through the tearout prone area. Fortunately I wasn't running the lathe very fast. I opened the crack and poured thin CA in and then closed the crack.
I'm not going to sand waste time sanding this one. I'll just put it on the shelf and watch it for the next 2 or 3 years and see how the glue holds. I don't dare sell something like this. If the glue does hold up over time I might sand it down and keep it for myself.
Bummer. It started out as an 18" bowl and by the time I got rid of the bad areas it was down to 15 1/2 about 6" deep. It would have been a nice piece. Fortunately I cored out the inside so I will get another stab at turning a piece from this. Needless to say I will stay well out of the line of fire.
 

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john lucas said:
Well so much for trying to get rid of the tearout in this bowl. I was actually doing pretty well. I soaked the tearout prone area with thinned lacquer. Then used my sharpest gouge, a higher speed on the lathe and slow feeding to reduce it to a couple of small 1" or so patches. I soaked these with thin CA and still didn't get rid of every last one but had it down to sanding with 80 or 100 grit. Shear scraping on this one didn't improve the finish quality any over the sharp gouge and may have even added a little bit of tearout.
Click to expand...

Like I said above, box elder is one of my "Poster child" species for displaying tearout..... almost never fails - wet or dry..... If it didn't frequently have such nice color I would not touch it as a turning wood.....Fortunately it has some redeeming values!

Rob Wallace
 

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odie said:
I'd like to know a little more about it, and how it applies to cleanly cutting difficult woods like spalt, knots, burl, swirly grain, etc.

From what I can tell, it's a surface hardener, sort of like applying a "shell" covering over rotted wood......and suitable for PAINTED surfaces. I'm not sure how well this would work as a preparation for a block of wood, or a previously roughed bowl blank that still needs to be brought to a final shape by cutting with lathe tools......but, there is promise to it! 😉

As I sit here and think about it for a few moments, it occurred to me that the Minwax Wood Hardener might be more useful to a woodturner......IF......it's possible to impregnate the wood with it. I wonder if a roughed bowl which has been coated in the MWH (Minwax Wood Hardener), and placed in a pressurized container might do just that.......????? !
Click to expand...

Odie, I have used Minwax Wood Hardener a lot -- mostly for architectural restoration. I have also used it a bit on punky wood for turning.

I can address your concern about it being a surface treatment -- when used for its intended purpose, it soaks into the wood like a sponge and goes all the way through it without a problem. It is far thinner than water so it has no problem with soaking into soft woods or woods that have partially decayed. It is water clear and affects the wood color about the same as any clear finish such as lacquer. I have also used it on wood with "wild" grain patterns.

How do I like it? Well, it has its uses, but in general, I don't recommend it for one reason -- it makes the wood too hard to turn unless used very sparingly. I have used it on a decayed rose bush stump and it has made some beautiful pieces that I use for jewelry and ornamental purposes. No additional finishing is necessary -- just wet sand with MicroMesh to the desired level of gloss.
 
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What your saying is that I should try the wood hardener on scrap first to learn how to work with it.

Rob Beautiful piece. You should take a look at my article on how to photograph really glossy work. Send me an e-mail and I'll send you the PDF.

I've decided to patch the crack line (which you actually can't see) with butterfly patches. It will ease my fears of it ever opening up and it will add a visual surprise to a bland area of the bowl. Now if I could just make the butterfly's out of red box elder I might have something.
 
You can try liquid acrylic floor wax - I have used it before and it works well on some woods........
 
I recently had some nice spalted soft maple that was a little too far gone. The pull-out of fibers and pecking was terrible. When I got toward the finishing phase, I saturated it with some full strength poly I had left over from some cabintes, let it cure a few days, and problem solved. It darkened the wood some, and I was obliged to complete the finish with poly, but it was better that loosing the piece.
 
boehme said:
Odie, I have used Minwax Wood Hardener a lot -- mostly for architectural restoration. I have also used it a bit on punky wood for turning.

I can address your concern about it being a surface treatment -- when used for its intended purpose, it soaks into the wood like a sponge and goes all the way through it without a problem. It is far thinner than water so it has no problem with soaking into soft woods or woods that have partially decayed. It is water clear and affects the wood color about the same as any clear finish such as lacquer. I have also used it on wood with "wild" grain patterns.

How do I like it? Well, it has its uses, but in general, I don't recommend it for one reason -- it makes the wood too hard to turn unless used very sparingly. I have used it on a decayed rose bush stump and it has made some beautiful pieces that I use for jewelry and ornamental purposes. No additional finishing is necessary -- just wet sand with MicroMesh to the desired level of gloss.
Click to expand...


Hi Bill.......

Thanks for giving us your take on the MWH....appreciate it.

....so hard that it doesn't cut easily with lathe tools.....! I wonder why, or what makes it that hard....?

Still got it on my list, though.....would like to give it a try.

ooc
 
Another approch that has worked for me is to apply a wax/turp mixture to the endgrain and then sand. all these methods are aimed at supporting the wood fibers whether you are trying to cur or sand them off. I can never sand endgrain on the inside of a bowl with just sandpaper and the bowl spinning. Seems like you just sand the sidegrain. The wax fixes that issue. Stopping the lathe when sanding is also a big help.

The last thing I wanted to mention was to use a smaller bowl gouge. Dave Lancaster always used a 1/4" bowl gouge for his finishing cuts because he said the finish was better. This also seems to work for me.
 
I found some minwax wood hardener today at the Porter paint store. Last bottle they had. I'll give it a try on some scrap this weekend if not sooner and let you know what I think.
 
odie said:
....so hard that it doesn't cut easily with lathe tools.....! I wonder why, or what makes it that hard....?

Still got it on my list, though.....would like to give it a try.

ooc
Click to expand...

It is like Inlace in some respects. If you let Inlace harden for more than a day or two, it is almost like turning stone -- or maybe Corian, but a bit harder. And sanding is a mess because it creates a very fine dust with a noxious odor somewhat like MEK. A small amount is not bad, but if you continue filling the wood until it no longer will soak up any of the hardener, it just becomes a big piece of hard plastic with some wood embeded in it. For some pieces with a lot of potential (like my rose stump), it is worth the extra work and expense. My guess is that this stuff combined with wood becomes abrasive and dulls edges quickly.
 
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