sunken wood

[Ed Jarvis]

I met a man who tells me that he gets small logs that were under water along time when we have floods, very stable he says and calls them water cured. What does this mean?
Ed

 

[Bill Boehme]

It means that they were "sinkers" -- wood that sank when being floated to the mill for processing into lumber. Cutting logs and then dumping them into a river to float downstream to the mill was a very common practice in the 1800's. Under water, these logs did not decay since they did not have sufficient oxygen and often were buried in mud in the river. Recently, it has been a profitable business to recover these sunken logs and cut them into lumber. When properly dried, they are very stable and also have beautiful grain.

 

[John Torchick]

Waterlogged logs

Just thinking- how long would a log take to dry out? Could you cut soggy logs into boards to speed up drying? I've seen a show in TV that talks about recovering such wood.

 

[Peter Clark]

John-
It is my recollection that they dry faster than the 1" per year that hardwoods typically dry. From what I understand the water leaves the inside of the wood cell and is only present in the fibers. If that make sense.

Absolutly, cutting into smaller pieces will make it dry faster because of the increased surface area.

I have worked with some of the reclaimed pine from the Mississippi River, Very stable, harder than normal pine and gorgeous!

Hope this helps.

 

[hughie]

here you go , this should answer your question



http://www.ancientkauri.co.nz/index...uri_kingdom/facts_zealand_ancient_swamp_kauri

http://www.swampkauri.com/

http://www.swampkauriwoodturning.co.nz/indexnew.htm

 

[Barbara Gill]

The drying Rule of Thumb of 1"/year is very inaccurate. There are too many variables for it to even be close to true.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Interesting to note that the users of waterlog timber tout their respect for the environment in using a "lost" resource. Unfortunately the damage done to streambeds and spawning grounds during recovery is considerable.

The wood is as it was, dries as it would have, less the sap loss. The process that preserved it did not allow any changes. That's why it's still good.

 

[Barbara Gill]

A number of years ago someone here in Urbanna gave me some Cherry from a log that had floated down the Rappahannock River. Apparently during the course of the soaking, whatever chemical(s) that actually darken the wood were leached out. It remained blond even after years of being worked; it was much lighter than normal Cherry right after milling.

 

[robo hippy]

One way some of the old timers would 'cure' Madrone logs was to sink them in the mill pond for a couple of years. Madrone is notoriously difficult to dry, and they generally sink all by themselves due to high water content. My guess it that the 'bound' water (inside the cells) is able to go out without any stress to the wood, then you are left with only free water (the stuff that gets on you when you turn green wood). The sunken logs can pick up some color from whatever water they are in. Haven't heard of the water leaching out any color, but when I LDD soak my bowls (and when I used to use the DNA), the solution would leach out color, nice purple/pink from Madrone, dark brown from Walnut, etc.

robo hippy

 

[MichaelMouse]

One way some of the old timers would 'cure' Madrone logs was to sink them in the mill pond for a couple of years. Madrone is notoriously difficult to dry, and they generally sink all by themselves due to high water content. My guess it that the 'bound' water (inside the cells) is able to go out without any stress to the wood, then you are left with only free water (the stuff that gets on you when you turn green wood). The sunken logs can pick up some color from whatever water they are in. Haven't heard of the water leaching out any color, but when I LDD soak my bowls (and when I used to use the DNA), the solution would leach out color, nice purple/pink from Madrone, dark brown from Walnut, etc.

robo hippy

Not a good guess. Bound water is chemically bonded to the cellulose (sugars) that form the cell walls. Free water is what is in the vessels and the lumens of the cells themselves. Therefore, there would have to be some form of chemical reaction from a more ionic compound than water to "replace" anything. Alcohol will not fit the bill, BTW.

Various dyes are made from wood leachate, and the process of steaming to color walnut and cherry sapwood is pretty routinely done in kiln operations.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

mm or anyone:

i am curious

process of steaming to color walnut and cherry sapwood is pretty routinely done in kiln operations

are they coloring sapwood to match heartwood or something else

 

[steelguy]

Steaming Walnut

Charlie - they steam walnut during kiln opeations to blend in the sapwood to match heartwood. It works reasonably well, however it is still visible. In bowls, I don't mind sapwood, but in furniture, I try to avoid it. My father (long past, but an old industrial arts teacher) and I used to go to a sawmill/kiln dryng operation to pick-up walnut. He taught me how to locate the sapwood boards, even in the rough sawn, kiln dried and steamed condition. In most of my furniture projects sapwood is OK as long as it is only on one side of the board and is going to be concealed. Structurally it is quite sound, but is where you will find worm hole activity.

Jerry

 

[Bill Boehme]

...are they coloring sapwood to match heartwood ...

The color comes from the heartwood.

 

[Barbara Gill]

Charlie - they steam walnut during kiln opeations to blend in the sapwood to match heartwood. It works reasonably well, however it is still visible. In bowls, I don't mind sapwood, but in furniture, I try to avoid it. My father (long past, but an old industrial arts teacher) and I used to go to a sawmill/kiln dryng operation to pick-up walnut. He taught me how to locate the sapwood boards, even in the rough sawn, kiln dried and steamed condition. In most of my furniture projects sapwood is OK as long as it is only on one side of the board and is going to be concealed. Structurally it is quite sound, but is where you will find worm hole activity.

Jerry

The steaming takes very pretty wood and dulls down the color. When I first got into flat woodworking I couldn't figure out why so many woodworkers were staining walnut. I was used to the appearance of the wood after it was either dried in my solar kiln or in the dehumidification kiln. Then I saw what some of the woodworkers were working with and understood.

 

[ray hampton]

what will the salt content be after a log have been in the ocean for a couple of years ?

 

[Barbara Gill]

what will the salt content be after a log have been in the ocean for a couple of years ?

I guess I was the only one who was involved with a log that was floating in saltwater although it never got near the ocean. My answer is that I wouldn't have the slightest idea. I am sure there would be so many variables that the question would not have a simple answer.

 

[robo hippy]

Back to the bound water thing going away in sinkers. I would guess that is some what similar to what boiling does, but rather than heat, you use time to break those bonds. Maybe time/ageing contributes to a chemical reaction or break down of the cell walls, but a sinker log does dry differently than a fresh cut log. Again, observations would appear to me to be related to the bound water. For sure, nothing evaporates out.

robo hippy

 

[jimbob91577]

In theory anyway...

Do you suppose it would be more beneficial to submerge whole logs into a river, pond, or lake, than it would be to submerge rough cut slabs - or would it make a difference?

Considering the slabs would have more surface area and all..

 

[MichaelMouse]

Do you suppose it would be more beneficial to submerge whole logs into a river, pond, or lake, than it would be to submerge rough cut slabs - or would it make a difference?

Considering the slabs would have more surface area and all..

If you're curious, might want to start here. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/ah188/chapter10.pdf

The Wood Handbook on the same site has a wealth of free information on wood properties, including a definition of bound and unbound water, and how they affect seasoning. Properties of sunken logs do change, apparently, depending on fresh or salt, cold or warm, soft or hardwood. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1984/winan84a.pdf

 

[steelguy]

What happens during steaming WALNUT

Hi All: I found this exerpt in a Best of Woodwork CD

HOW STEAMING WORKS
IT WAS LONG BELIEVED that steaming
walnut darkened the sapwood primarily by
causing some of the heartwood pigments to
migrate into the sapwood. This notion of borrowing
from Peter to pay Paul seemed plausible
since heartwood highlights were lost in
the steaming process, and both the heartwood
and sapwood became more uniformly
brown (less variegated) in color. However,
controlled and carefully measured tests conducted
in the 1960s revealed the chemistry
involved is far more complex than simple pigment
migration. It was found that pure walnut
sapwood, trimmed of any associated
heartwood, could still be coaxed to darken
when exposed to steam. In other words, pigments
were being formed and not merely
moved around.
This unexpected result next led the
researchers to investigate which aspects of
steam (the heat and/or the moisture) actually
caused pigment formation. They found
that moisture did play some role in the
process: steaming was more effective in
freshly-cut green wood with moisture content
above the Fiber Saturation Point than it
was with stock that had been air-dried prior
to steaming. On the other hand, heat seemed
to be the primary trigger in accelerating pigment
formation. In fact, when the pressure
was increased in the steam chamber to allow
for temperatures above the boiling point of
water, the pigment-forming process appeared
to be optimized as the temperature
approached 230° F. Whether the moisture
simply helps transmit the heat or actually contributes
chemically to the pigment formation
is still not clear.
It is thought that the dark color of walnut
results from an enzyme action on some of the
wood’s natural phenols, causing them to polymerize
into pigments. This process is accelerated
by heat, but heat is not indispensable.
Nature achieves the same result at ambient
temperatures as sapwood slowly converts to
heartwood in the living tree. Also, while steaming
quickly breaks down the beautiful highlights
found in walnut, over time nature destroys
them anyway, as the wood takes on its longterm
patina. So, while modern technology
allows us to tamper with walnut’s chemistry
and force a speedier transformation of its natural
pigment-forming process, the mystery
remains as to how it actually works.

Research consulted:
“Color Changes in Black Walnut As a Function
of Temperature, Time, and Two Moisture
Conditionsâ€; by A. B. Brauner and W. E. Loos,
Forest Products Journal, vol. 18 #5, May 1968.

Jerry