Suggestions for a Hollowing System

[Al Chavez]

Hello Everyone,
I'm considering a hollowing system to use with my new PM 2014. My question is which hollowing system would you suggest for me to invest in? I beginning to realize that this may be a major purchase.

I am currently using a few hand tools to hollow very shallow closed form bowls and experimenting with hollow vessels.

I have bought the extension bed and tool rest extension so I can make larger bowls and vessels. I am using a swan neck hollower with carbide tips and a 10 inch bar, a few scrapers including one that I reshaped for a relief and some bowl gouges with an Ellsworth grind and a bottom feeder. I am also using a box tool rest that overhangs five inches from the tool post that I can extent into the vessels ( not into very narrow openings though). I feel like this is a good beginning but I am also starting to understand the limitations of this approach.

Some features I think I want for a hollowing system would include:

• Larger tools. I would eventually like to make hollow forms and closed bowls that are between 12 inches and 18 inches diameter and 16 inches deep. I would like to make forms as large as my lathe allows
• Swan neck tools and straight tools with different cutters
• Square stock for the tool shaft maybe 5/8" square stock
• Long tool handles that can be swapped out with different bars
• Tools that I can use initially without a stabilizer and laser system
• A system that has the capability to add a stabilizer and laser

I'm not really sure about which systems may work for me. I am looking at Trent Bosch but I am not sure if the cutters can articulate or if that is an important feature.

Are there other systems that work for you?
Is anyone wanting to sell their set up? Please message me.
I am considering buying some more hand tools soon but I want to invest in a modular system rather than buy individual tools that won't work in a system.
Thanks
Al in Texas

 

[Doug Freeman]

That’s an ambitious size for that lathe. Is the outboard/extension banjo long enough to get to the side of an 18” piece? Roughing out big pieces will be your challenge with that lathes light weight and smallish motor. Doable but a full size lathe would have handled those sizes much easier.

An articulating system (Bosch with stabilizer is one) is probably what you need. I have the Jamieson captive system, which might be made to work with your setup, but I’m not sure the lathe extension is long enough for the depth and OD you state and get the backrest to mount. There are a few different articulating systems available, not sure any of the have a large and long enough bar to get 16”.

16” deep should have a 1-1/8” or 1-1/4” bar dia. IMO you want the stabilizer/ capture equipment from the beginning - no sense in taking the chance of hurting yourself early on if you plan to add a device later (the purpose of torque and tip height constraint systems is injury prevention - it can be done holding the tool, just more risk).

IMO you want a cutting edge indicator, laser or camera system, from the beginning. Just helps prevent blowouts.

I’m not a fan of the articulating cutters, and you dont want a setup that puts the cutting edge out of line with the bar center, without a torque constraint - recipe for injury. The thing that sold me on the Jamieson system was the completeness of the “I want it all” system for the $. I like all the various cutter mounting positions and bar size/lengths. Either the carbide or hss tool bit (my preference) can be mounted to get about anywhere inside a vessel, and the hss bits are cheap.

EDIT: wanted to add Bosch handled vs Jamieson or other non-handled system - I much prefer using my left hand/finger tips on the bar at the work piece opening, and right hand resting further back usually on the “D” handle, to control the system/cutter position vs being 2-4 ft behind the tool rest trying to control it. I think the Bosch system allows finger tip control. The stabilizer traps the bar. I dont think a handle has to used but a short one is needed for the right hand to rest and help move.

Be sure to look at total cost of systems. 1/2” bar for smaller, 3/4” bar for 8-10” deep, 1-1/8” for deeper, and any additional parts needed.

 

[hockenbery]

The Bosch would work fine

you might also consider the Jamieson handle.
The easy and cheap way to go is cut a 2x6 3 feet long. A bolt through one end mounts it to the ways of your lathe.
On the other end you can mount the back rest. You can make a back rest from plywood. Put some nylon tape on the top of the lower piece forming the slot or just wax it with an old candle.

This set up will enable you to reach the inside wall of pieces as large as you describe. The 2x6 can swing to give your tool the proper angle.

I have used this system to do lots of hollowing demos on shortbed lathes. One demo was on a jet1221 way under powered for hollowing but we got a nice 6” pot hollowed.

Get a 3/4 straight tool and a 3/4 bent tool. I like the Bosch bars.

The jamieson is a good starter system. You can add a laser easily and you can add video too
Also if you ever got to the mega hollow forms- they are allmost always done with a large Jamieson style system
If you are interested I can take some photos.

I have the Simon hope and have used the Bosch for a couple o hollow forms. Both are great but neither work any better than the Jamieson. And the Jamieson is easier to use on wide pots.
The Simon hope is quicker to change heights than the Jaimison. Unless you get a different lathe that is not an advantage for you.

Later you will want to add the Bosch scrapers and maybe the extreme bent tool.

 

[Al Chavez]

Get a 3/4 straight tool and a 3/4 bent tool. I like the Bosch bars.

The jamieson is a good starter system. You can add a laser easily and you can add video too
Also if you ever got to the mega hollow forms- they are all most always done with a large Jamieson style system
If you are interested I can take some photos.

Later you will want to add the Bosch scrapers and maybe the extreme bent tool.

Yes, please do.
The bed extension will make the PM 2014 effectively a 3314. There is a lower position for the bed extension that will create a 19" swing but with a much shorter bed. I suppose I really need to focus on a system that is for use with a short bed lathe. I have ordered the bed extension and it will be delivered in a month so I will have a much better idea of what I am working with.

Thank you for sharing what works for you!

 

[Al Chavez]

An articulating system (Bosch with stabilizer is one) is probably what you need.
IMO you want a cutting edge indicator, laser or camera system, from the beginning. Just helps prevent blowouts.

I’m not a fan of the articulating cutters, and you dont want a setup that puts the cutting edge out of line with the bar center, without a torque constraint - recipe for injury. The thing that sold me on the Jamieson system was the completeness of the “I want it all” system for the $. I like all the various cutter mounting positions and bar size/lengths. Either the carbide or hss tool bit (my preference) can be mounted to get about anywhere inside a vessel, and the hss bits are cheap.

EDIT: wanted to add Bosch handled vs Jamieson or other non-handled system - I much prefer using my left hand/finger tips on the bar at the work piece opening, and right hand resting further back usually on the “D” handle, to control the system/cutter position vs being 2-4 ft behind the tool rest trying to control it. I think the Bosch system allows finger tip control. The stabilizer traps the bar. I dont think a handle has to used but a short one is needed for the right hand to rest and help move.

Be sure to look at total cost of systems. 1/2” bar for smaller, 3/4” bar for 8-10” deep, 1-1/8” for deeper, and any additional parts needed.

Thank you for the great feedback Doug. I will have to consider the limits of the new lathe that you've mentioned. I did buy a tool rest extension that adds 7 inches to the banjo and a bed extension that adds 13 inches to the center to center length or adds 5 inches to the total swing but not both at once. I am sure I will find the limits of the tool and then work within those boundaries.

I read a post you put in another thread about a D.I.Y. hollowing system that you made. Can you post some pics of that at some point?

thanks
Al in Texas

 

[Chris Lawrence]

Making a captive system is pretty easy and cheap. I made my captive hollowing system out of a couple pieces of 1" square tubing welded together instead of a D ring. I made the captive ring with a couple pieces of u metal and short cuts of the 1" square tubing. I repurposed a banjo from a decommissioned lathe to attach the captive ring to the lathe but it could easily be made from wood like Hockenbery suggested. Here is a video i made for my channel using it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bk3dYPeir4&t=420s


I think the hollow form was 7 or 8 inches deep. I use the John Jordan hollowing bars.
Not sure why its not letting me put in a start point. Fast foward to 7 minutes in unless you want to watch it all.

(Video edited by moderator to start at 7 minutes)

 

[Al Chavez]

Thanks for the video Chris. I watched the whole video.
I appreciate you sharing your d.i.y. system.
You all have me thinking of different options.
Al

 

[Chris Lawrence]

Forgot to mention my lathe is 42 inches between centers. In that video my headstock was not all the way to the end of the lathe. It was probably close to 1/4 of the way to the center of the lathe bed.

 

[Clifton C]

Lots of good advise so far. As Doug said, ambitious for that size lathe. But, the idea is to keep exploring the possibilities.
https://lylejamieson.com has a wealth of info on hollowing. I have read and reread almost every page on his site. Last page, last two paragraphs of this PDF have some good advice about vibration, and then about building a hybrid system https://lylejamieson.com/wp-content/uploads/press-hollowing-tools.pdf
Then there is this for big stuff. http://advancedlathetools.com
And more big stuff. https://www.theokspindoctor.com
And then a good vid to watch would be "Brian McEvoy's, Secrets to mastering the large captive boring bar". In this vid, Brian shows a free standing trap, so the length of the lathe bed is not an issue.
For some reason I'm remembering Chief Brody's quote from JAW's... "You're gonna need a bigger boat".

 

[Al Chavez]

Ha!
Yeah Clifton,

"You're gonna need a bigger boat".

I have no doubt about that. For now I am going to see what I can do with the PM2014.
I emailed Lyle Jamieson yesterday and asked about using his system on my PM. He replied this morning that he has a system for every lathe.
Thanks for all the links. I'll be researching those today. I have considered a free standing tool rest but had not thought about a free standing trap. Doug brought up an excellent point about the lathe extension not having enough travel to make larger vessels. I was heavily leaning towards a Jamieson system but that single consideration has me revisiting the Bosch system.

It looks like the Bosch system is attached at the tool post on the banjo and doesn't need the extra space behind the tool rest for the backrest that the Jamieson needs.
I am still researching. Simon Hope is no longer shipping to the US.

I really appreciate this great community. The information you all share is great.
Al

I've also emailed Trent Bosch with some questions about the compatibility of his system with my lathe's capacity. His site has a listing of different lathes to help determine which system is the best fit but the new PM2014 isn't listed yet. The PM2020 is though. I will update if I get a reply.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

I enjoy my TB system, though I'm using Jordan cutting tools I already had in it for my 3/4" tools. Trent also offers 1" bars for going deep. I especially like that it folds up so small for storage and setup is literally as easy as dropping a toolrest into the banjo. It's the only system I've used, so I can't offer comparisons.

 

[Dave Landers]

I use Trent Bosch's hollowing system. One thing I like is that with the stabilizer, the way you use the tool is the same as without it. Same body movement, etc, you just get added support. It's also nicely upgradable - I started with just one set of hollowing tools, and have added others and added the stabilizer and added the visualizer (camera). He also has handle inserts so you can initially get away with one handle for multiple tool sizes.

I think his system does work best if you can stand at the end of the lathe, without the tailstock. On a long-bed lathe with a fixed headstock, or when removing the tailstock is difficult, you might be better off with a different system.

I usually start hollowing without the stabilizer, then set it up (with the camera) when I want extra control getting closer to final wall thickness.

I have found that his curved tools don't reach around under the neck of a flatter-topped form. Probably would need an offset cutter for that. But I can adjust his Radius Scrapers to work for me. I ground down the scraper on my smaller one so it fits in a smaller hole. Also replaced the screw with something lower profile for the same reason.

 

[Doug Freeman]

. Doug brought up an excellent point about the lathe extension not having enough travel to make larger vessels. I was heavily leaning towards a Jamieson system but that single consideration has me revisiting the Bosch system.

Reread Hockenberry post. A simple 2x6 can be used as an extension to the rear off the bed extension to mount the back rest on. You mentioned the banjo that comes with the bed extension is 7” longer? If so it will be long enough to get a tool rest to the side of a big project to turn the OD.

Repeat - look at the total cost of a complete system that will do small to large, as well as flat shoulder projects ( many systems/bars cant get to a flat or near flat area up around the entry hole, and it gets more difficult the bigger in ID that area is). Also cost to move the system to a larger lathe since you mentioned that could happen down the road.

 

[hockenbery]

Yes, please do.
The bed extension will make the PM 2014 effectively a 3314. There is a lower position for the bed extension that will create a 19" swing but with a much shorter bed. I suppose I really need to focus on a system that is for use with a short bed lathe. I have ordered the bed extension and it will be delivered in a month so I will have a much better idea of what I am working with.

Thank you for sharing what works for you

Sorry to take so long
this is the home made back rest of plywood with 2x6 extension the angled 2x6 is to give something to screw the plywood to that is no end grain. The 2 plywood pieces aabove and below the slot Hold the handle in place without a bar. The back rest doesn’t get much pressure from anything.




mounted on the lathe. This is Jet 1221 and it is Not adjusted for height. it would usually be further back. Stuck it here for a photo




this a mounting bracket I use for laser or video. It is a boat railing fitting Bolted to a block of wood underneath. I made it by cross drilling 1” holes the cutting the block in two through the centers of the holes. This yields 2 blocks with cross channels to hold against the jaimison handle. you could cut vee grooves with a bandsaw if you don’t have a drill press.
it is usually mounted where the “D” comes back into the shaft. But I moved it up when a deep form had the block hitting the back rest.

 

[hockenbery]

Doug brought up an excellent point about the lathe extension not having enough travel to make larger vessels. I was heavily leaning towards a Jamieson system but that single consideration has me revisiting the Bosch system

I would not reccoment a free standing support unless you go to a really big Jamison style system for doing deep (18” or taller ) forms. These will have 3-4 foot long D handle.
The 2x6 solution works great. Jamison sells a flat steel piece that does the same thing that his back rest bolts to.
if you have the jamieson back rest, it can be bolted to a 2x6.

jamison handle - $80
3/4 bosch total access tools (straight & bent tools) $145
For $225, a 2x6, a 1/2 sheet 1/2” of plywood, and a box of screws - you have system that can hollow anything you can turn on your lathe and you can move to a larger lathe when the time comes.

add a bent scraper for $115 and you can Smooth the inside.

the Bosch stabilizer works great.
the Simon hope system works great.
other systems work great.
the Jamison system works great.

None of the other systems do anything that you can’t do just as well with a Jamison handle and a home made back rest.
none provide any advantage while working. The Jamison is a little easier to use when hollowing a wide hollowform.

 

[Al Chavez]

Thanks Hockenbery and Doug and everyone else that has contributed towards this discussion.
I really have taken all the info everyone has shared, including the D.I.Y. suggestions and explored what might be the best fit for me.
I am currently leaning towards the Bosch with some different diameter bars (1/2 and 3/4) though I am not 100% certain. Trent and I are emailing each other about the specs on the PM 2014 and his system. I have a couple of flatbar scrapers and few carbide tips chisels but I am considering adding some Jaimeson bars with different diameters (1/2 and 3/4) a straight bar and a hook in each diameter. Regardless of the choice I make and whether I build a d.i.y. system or purchase one of the systems shared here, I really do appreciate all the help.
Al

 

[Ric Williams]

FWIW, I used a Bosch stabilizer on my Rikon 1218 for awhile until I got my 3520C. I had to shorten the mounting post to fit the 1218, and then replace it with a longer post for the 3520C, but it was really simple and works really well. The small stabilizer only handles tools up 5/8", so if you're planning to use 3/4 tools you'll want the larger stabilizer.

 

[Al Chavez]

FWIW, I used a Bosch stabilizer on my Rikon 1218 for awhile until I got my 3520C. I had to shorten the mounting post to fit the 1218, and then replace it with a longer post for the 3520C, but it was really simple and works really well. The small stabilizer only handles tools up 5/8", so if you're planning to use 3/4 tools you'll want the larger stabilizer.

Thanks Ric,
That is the conversation I am having with Trent. If I can use the 3/4 inch bar then I will most likely go with that system. Trent asked for some dimensions and I am waiting to hear back.
Thanks again for that bit of info.

 

[Ric Williams]

Probably sounds a lot like the conversations I had with Trent. He's very helpful. Hope it all works out to your liking.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

@Al Chavez , have you looked at articulating arm systems, specifically the Elbow and the Simple Hollowing System?

 

[Al Chavez]

Hello Mark,
Yes, I have. I remember first seeing the Simple Hollowing system in a post you replied to and then you a made a new thread discussing it that I've followed. I like the articulating arm part but I also like the idea of using a handle on the bar like the Trent Bosch system. I am also leaning towards a system that is entirely supported at the tool rest rather than a having a back rest or a tailstock supported system. The PM 2014 has a short bed and attaching the system at the tailstock would not maximize the height of pieces I can turn.
Thank you
Al

 

[hockenbery]

leaning towards a system that is entirely supported at the tool rest rather than a having a back rest or a tailstock supported system.

a lot of folks share that preference for working behind the support.
that makes Bosch system a leading choice.

I‘m more comfortable having the support behind me

the cutting edge of the tool cuts the same regardless of where the sport is.

 

[Allen Mattsen]

a lot of folks share that preference for working behind the support.
that makes Bosch system a leading choice.

I‘m more comfortable having the support behind me

the cutting edge of the tool cuts the same regardless of where the sport is.

If you have experience with both types, such as Bosch or Jaimeson systems: is there one type that is easier on your body and/or back vs the other?

 

[hockenbery]

If you have experience with both types, such as Bosch or Jaimeson systems: is there one type that is easier on your body and/or back vs the other?

I have used the Jamieson system for 20 years demoed with it at many clubs and symposiums.
have had a Simon Hope for about 5 years Demoed with it at 1 symposium and a few clubs.
I have hollowed two pieces using this Bosch system

I would say these systems are all about equal with regard to being no body stress and used properly you can stand with your back straight with all of these systems. Used improperly you can lean over with all of them and get a sore back.

one big difference is that with the Bosch system the support mechanism is between you and the opening And you hold a tool handle. This feels really natural to folks who have done lots of hand hollowing
with the Jamieson and Hope you hold the hollowing bar and the support mechanism is toward the tailstock. I much prefer this probably because I’m used to it and if using a laser I can see bit further around the wide forms I do.
i now use video and all systems are equal And video set at eye level makes the user stand with good posture.

if you have any thought to do the 4 feet tall pieces get the Jamieson. The Jamieson style scales up nicely for the tall pieces.

what I used for a long time is the Jamieson handle, Bosch hollowing bars, an ugly plywood back rest, and some plumbing pipe to hold a laser.
this is the least expensive and just as effective as the articulated systems.

the Hope system is a tiny bit quicker to set up and takes less room than the Jamieson.
probably not cost effective but I like using it and is a lot easier to set up for demos.

 

[robo hippy]

I don't have a lot of experience with hollowing, but do have a few comments. The articulated systems do claim that you can reach out to 10 to 12 inches, or at least they used to. When playing with them, it seemed to me that they are fine up to about 6 or so inches for roughing and fine finish cuts, but beyond that, they were only good for fine finish cuts. The multiple arms are not as solid as bar stock. I did prefer hand held McNaughton cutters for the roughing, and did find the articulated arm system (Monster) to be a bit easier for fine finish cuts. I do have a home made system with a 1 1/4 inch bar stock that seems pretty solid out to 18 inches or so.

If I was going to be doing more hollowing, I would go with one of the camera and screen systems rather than the laser set up. It just works better.

I consider boxes and 'closed' end grain forms to be good practice for learning to hollow. Closed forms meaning the opening is smaller than the max diameter. In part because it is easy to see inside what you are turning, and to get the 'feel' of the cuts you will be using.

robo hippy