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Spray guns and their use? Cleanup?

H

Hugh

Joined
May 6, 2004
Messages
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Location
Sonoma, CA
My finish on most of my vessels (that is what I turn most), and some of of my open bowls is "Deft" lacquer. I hand paint on many coats (sometimes up to 12+), allowing it to dry between coats. Then I let the whole vessel cure for a couple of weeks and then hand sand down to about 1500 grit and then polish up (usually by hand). Sometimes I sand between coats of lacquer (after 3-4 coats).

The question that is coming is that I would like to spray the lacquer onto the vessels. But I do not do a lot of bowls at one time. The question is: Spray guns? Is gravity feed better than suction feed? Do I need to spend a bunch of money on a "good" spray gun or can I get by with a gun from Harbor Freight? Do I have to clean the gun after every use? Is there a way I can just spray and then leave the gun with lacquer in the can and use it later? Hours later? The next day? Can I just clean the nozzle? I still plan on hand sanding the finish after it has many coats and has cured.

I basically know nothing about spraying. It has taken me too many years to come up with a nice finish the way I have been doing it and would like to end up with the same nice finish but faster and easier.

Thanks for the help. Happy turnings!
Hugh
 
Spray Guns

Hugh, I use the "Critter" sells for about $35 or so on Amazon. It uses mason jars as the paint, lacquer container. Easy to clean since all you need to do is screw the lid on a jar of lacquer thinner. The only down side if you are apurest is that the spray fan is only circular. That is if you want a fan wither vertical or horizaontal you can not adjust the pattern like you can with a more expensive gun. For bowls and the like it is great. Uses only 40# pressure for lacquer. I have used one for about a year. Darryl
 
Spray guns

This is just what I have found by running a refinishing shop for 25 years. Laquer is mostly solvent. The "high build" ones are 24 percent solids so when you spray less than half ever reaches your project and of that half 76 percent will evoperate. This is why you apply I think you said 12 coats. One of the nice things about laquer is it drys fast and is its own solvent. This means you could spray, let dry,spray,etc untill you had a build up. In this case I wouldn't bother to clean the gun untill I was done. A cheap gravity gun is the way to go. Takes less pressure and is easier to clean. I assume you have a compressor to run the gun. Personally I don't see any advantage for you with only one thing to spray at a time unless you want to buy another tool. As an afterthought, laquer is thin and will run on you before you know it so good lighting in essential and keep the coats thin.

Ron
 
I've been using the HF touch up gun for about 3 years now. I'm sure it's not perfect by good standards but it has served me well. I usually us it all weekend before cleaning it. Sometimes even longer. They are only $13 so If you don't like it there's no big loss.
I dilute the finish to get a better spray and drying time. I dump this finish back into a jar and then pour a little lacquer thinner in the spray gun. I slosh this around and then spray it out. Every once in a while I soak the head in lacquer thinner.
Humidity and temperature are my worst problems.
 
Texian said:
Is anybody using the HF reuseable "spray can"?
Click to expand...

Think it's about the same as the Preval units. Hard to clean the nozzle and doesn't atomize very well-finish mist has large drops that form bumps even when well thinned.

HF touch-up gun or the Crtiier are better if you've got a small compressor.

M
 
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Spray gun

As a past production manager in a diplay studio that used laquer exclusively, I can agree with everything said previous to my post. I admit I am unfamiliar with the sprayers mentioned. The guns we used were on the pricey side. We did let the laquerer sit "in the can" for long periods of time, but when we did, we clean the tip of the sprayer with a toothbrush. A little swipe is all it took. If we didn't we had to go soak them and then dissassemble the end of the gun to get them clean and block free. Heavy use also had us taking them off the line and maintaining them a couple of times a year to keep them running smooth. Hope this helps.
 
Shoot 'em up

Hugh said:
I would like to spray the lacquer onto the vessels. But I do not do a lot of bowls at one time. The question is: Spray guns?
Click to expand...

Hugh, Deft lacquer is also my finish of choice and I've been shooting it for all my large flat work for years. I have an inexpensive gun I bought at a big box store and a little "hot dog" compressor I picked up from Northern Tool. So when I began doing round work last year I started finishing (oxymoron?) with Deft because I love the speed, look, ease of application and ... well just everything.

Before you invest in any new equipment though just buy a couple spray cans of Deft and have at it. No muss, no fuss, no messy clean up, no pints of thinner to dispose of when you're done. At least you'll find out if you even like to spray finish without spending $$. Some people aren't any good at it and hence never learn to enjoy it.

I still use spray cans for most of my turnings because I don't produce that much work at one time and hauling out all that peripheral gear is a pain in the butt. And unlike the "Critter" spray gun mentioned previously the Deft spray cans actually have a fan pattern tip you can change from horizontal to vertical.
 
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Thanks for the help everyone. I am going to start looking much more closely at spray guns. I remember at a symposium - someone at one of the demos said that they used a gravity feed spray gun and did not clean it between spraying. I realize that it would have to be cleaned up periodically. I like the idea of leaving the finish in the can and then just hitting the tip of the gun with a toothbrush with thinner. That appeals to me. Maybe I will need to save up a few bowls and do 3-5 at a time. Might just work. I was hoping to get a bit smoother finish (less sanding after it has dried) with a sprayer. Also a faster application time.

Pencheff - I have tried using spray cans but find they cost much more than a quart of finish. And it seems to take more coats. I have used the spray cans for touch up work.

I have the compressor, so all I need is a gun. I will look around and let you all know what I end up with and the results. And yes it is always nice to get new toys to play with. Seems that we are never happy unless we try them all. Thanks again.
Hugh
 
I have been spraying lacquer on woodturnings for several years now. There are a few options. (I have used all of them at one time or another so I figure I would throw in my personal rants)
Up front, wear a mask with good cartridges and if you are using a lacquer, buy some retarder and some thinner.

Prevals don't atomize well, that's for sure, but are great for a quick touch up.

Spray cans use thinner material so it will take probably twice as many coats to get the same finish, and they will cost more, a lot more, in the end. But are a good choice if you shoot a piece a month or don't want the hassles of a gun.

As far as guns, a conventional spray gun is about 30%-50% efficient (the amount of material that goes onto the turning and isn't bounced back or sprayed around the air.) An HVLP gun (High Volume - Low Pressure) gets up in the 70% range, and it takes less air. You use about 20-40psi of air entering the gun and usually less that 10psi at the tip.

Gravity feed works good for low volumes, Suction feed, or a pot for higher quantities. Large gravity feed cups make a gun uncomfortable to use for a long period of time because they get top heavy.

A small detail gun that runs about $15-$30 will work fine. They are usually all metal and hard to find parts for, but at that size, if the needle and air horn are the right size for the material you are using, they are disposable.

A higher end small HVLP conversion gun, like SATA or BINKS, or (pick a brand) in the $200-$300 range, works great. I bought a SATA JET mini several years back, but it is overkill. A smaller gun works well for smaller items like used in woodturning, but for flat work they don't have the coverage. A new needle and jet kit, like if you wanted to use two different viscosity products, costs about $80-$100 for a higher end gun.

A better idea is to get one of the low cost HVLP conversion guns (conversion means it runs off of a normal compressor instead of an HVLP turbine) for about $50 at a harbor freight or Pepboys that is gravity fed. I bought a two gun kit with an air regulator for $50 at Pep a few weeks ago (haven't tried it yet).

A regulator and a filter are a great idea as well.

After each use, pour out any remaining product (assuming it is not a catalyzed lacquer) back into the container and shoot a few oz of lacquer thinner through it. If you leave some in the gun, enough so that it won't dry out until the next time you use it, you don't need much more cleaning.

Most guns will state their tip size in mm. If you are going to shoot lacquer or Deft, start with a 1mm - 1.2mm or so. A bigger size (hole) means you would require less thinning for a product with a higher amount of solids. The cheaper guns you may not have a choice to buy different tips.
If you are going to use water based product as well, buy two guns, one for each. Water based is a lot tougher to keep the gun clean. If you don't spray cleaner through it after use each time, it gums up real bad.
 
Hugh,

Just to emphasize one of Steve's points, unless you're planning to use waterborne finishes, do NOT get one of the turbine HVLP units (comes with it's own blower air supply) for solvent finishes. The Turbine units like Wagner, Campbell-Haus, Apollo, Fuji were designed for waterborne finishes. They warm the air as it passes through and solvent finishes will dry almost before they hit the surface giving a granular surface unless you use heavy retardants. If you're going to get an HVLP gun, make sure that it is a "conversion, non-bleeder" type which take normal compressor air and reduce the pressure to lessen the force with which the finish is propelled to the receiving surface. Non-bleeders do not keep a bit of air moving through the gun when not actually spraying, so you won't stir up dust in the spray area to get into the finish.

You also need to spray in a well ventilated area in addition to using a good mask rated for organic vapors. Working in a fog of spray mist will coat you and wreck your finish.

Good Luck
 
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underdog said:
And will an airbrush work for spraying turnings?
Click to expand...
They will work, but most are designed to
1) shoot a thinner product
2) cover a smaller area and with greater detail.
 
Bottled gas vs. Compressor Air

I renewed my search for a spraying solution after reading this thread. I came across lots of people in the craft/modeling space who have switched from compressor based systems to using bottled gas, typically Nitrogen or CO2.

The main advantages that are claimed include no water, gas does react with the finish in the gun, portability, easy & fast setup, quiet operation and no power requirements. The users of the bottled gas also claim that the bottles last a long time because the work that is being sprayed is small.

Does anybody have any experience using bottled gas for the finishing of woodturnings that they can relate?
 
Over the last weekend, I shot some lacquer w/retarder through the cheap Pep boys HVLP gun. I first dialed in the pattern and mixture I wanted, then sprayed 6 or so vessels. It worked pretty well, but I have figured out where they cut corners in designs.

My higher end (SATA) gun has a seal in the air cap (behind the air horns) so you just have to have that part snug and it seals up great. The cheap gun has an O-ring at the point where the aircap seats at the back of the gun. It looks like plain rubber, so it will probably get eaten up fast by the lacquer, and if left the least bit loose, material drips from there and runs down the handle.
 
I went to a HVLP sys mine is a Turbinaire with a variable speed , non-bleeder
all stainless steal passage ,and all stainless needle sets all advailable. My most common finnish is Deft NC laquer yes the gun heats up but the air is dry, which I have never accomplished out of my commpresser. I get no orange peel,fish eye,or blusshing I can spray as fine as Mama's air brush , or fan to production spay semis . I can remove the cup and attach it to my pressure pot 2 1/2 gal. Yes I have some coin into it but now my shop copresser is designated for My Dynabriade orbital sanders . The turbine is so
quiet I actually enjoy spaying again . It also works great for Marine Varnish ,
Shellac. I am just getting ready to try some water base praducts. I love the
Crystal Clearness of NC laquer and dislike the yellow effect of poly.
Good luck
Matt
 
I have been spray painting a little over 45 yrs. I have used every spray system mentioned here at one time oranother and at least 2 that were not. I personally prefer and use a conventional cup gun. Most of what I spray now are clear materials such as laquer and conversion varnish. My partner and I had a little competetion one afternoon. He with the hvlp and me with the conventional. The thought was to see who could get the most squ ft and a good finish. It was a virtual tie. His machine was a Turbin- aire. My gun was just shy of $400.00 new. I think if you use a high quality gun it is possible to pretty much duplicate hvlp performance assuming the operator has extensive experience. Of course the hvlp will spray water based materials and a conventional gun is hard pressed in that area. As with many of our tools today the hvlp makes almost anyone a pretty good spray man. These are just my opinions based on my personal experience. It is unreasonable to expect a $75.00 cup gun to compete with a $1000.00 spray system. I hope this helps,
Jim 🙂
 
jbell64@earthlink.net said:
It is unreasonable to expect a $75.00 cup gun to compete with a $1000.00 spray system. I hope this helps,
Jim 🙂
Click to expand...
I certainly don't expect it to, but it is a price point. I have no intentions of buying a turbine system, because of how little I would use it. By the same token, I don't expect the $75 gun to work as well or as long as my $atajet. But if I can get an exceptable finish out of the $75 gun, I would be happy. Given I go through an extensive sanding, buffing , polishing sequence after, they work well.
 
I spray a lot of my work and to me it is the best and easiest way to get a high quality finish. Two things that have been touched on but not really emphasized enough in my opinion-

Use plenty of light to see what you are spraying, can't understand why people work and finish in dim lighting, then seem surprised when blemishs show up in the real light at a show, gallery, or even in your own house.

And the most important thing is lung protection, use plenty of ventilation, proper mask, and a good spray booth if possible. The fine mist that build the fog does more than ruin your glasses and give your hair body, it can also clog your lungs! The fumes from lacquer are never good for you but that fine mist can be deadly, and also be aware of fire hazards. Watched a great furniture builder chain-smoke while spraying finish, scared me but he was always lucky I guess.
 
woodwish said:
I spray a lot of my work and to me it is the best and easiest way to get a high quality finish. Two things that have been touched on but not really emphasized enough in my opinion-

Use plenty of light to see what you are spraying, can't understand why people work and finish in dim lighting, then seem surprised when blemishs show up in the real light at a show, gallery, or even in your own house.

And the most important thing is lung protection, use plenty of ventilation, proper mask, and a good spray booth if possible. The fine mist that build the fog does more than ruin your glasses and give your hair body, it can also clog your lungs! The fumes from lacquer are never good for you but that fine mist can be deadly, and also be aware of fire hazards. Watched a great furniture builder chain-smoke while spraying finish, scared me but he was always lucky I guess.
Click to expand...

My entire career now totaly ending after 38yr, I could never find any thing that would replace a lacquer finnish on wood , I spent at lest twenty yr sumerged in lead paint ,milk paint, acetones, creosotes, and other banned
substances . I was addicted to lacquer as much as Historicail Bldg . One of the major reasons I went to H.LV.L.P. spray system was I have to sray in the field. in very stuffy people homes that are nationly registered . When I worked on exterior Items for Staberry Bank In Porstmouth N.H. I could spray
Milk Paint ( required finnish) and I could never spay milk paint with a coventional gun. Well back on track Unfoutenatly the only people who still spray laquer are wood workers KNOWLEDGE IS POWER , RESPECT IS WISE.
Woodworkers,turners, and the list is endless are the luckest people in the world : we are touch with the soul of the earth. As a Society the things we
do to our selves is amazing . If I cotinued to do wood I wood never quit laquer even at my insaine levels . Less overspay about 80 % + Transfer
55 C.F.M. at 6 P.S.I. my turbin- aire on lowest setting . Ican spay the inside
a large vessel with minimun cloud.

THINK OF THIS
Spay boths even the smallest ones are required to be equipped explosion proff
electrical conections that is why the cost so much.

any electricail device can cause a spark

Read a Manufacturers material Safty Data Sheet right online

Check into an Organic Vapor resporator and make sure it is rated for Restricted or confinned Space

I must repeat though wood workers are smart we don't trffle Spin, Spin,Spin

I would never quite using laquer or My H.V.L.P. '' LIVE FREE OR DIE ''

May you get the luster of your dreams

Good Luck
MATT
 
I use the cheap HF gravity feed spay gun with pretty good results. My biggest impovement, I quit using Deft and started using Watco Pre Cat Lacquer. HUGE Differance. Leaves a much nicer finish and seems to build faster. Besides that it was cheaper buy a $2 a gallon
 
Hugh
Iwas just ordering up some finnish from www.hoodfinishing.com , and I noticed a gadget that made me think of your question. This company sells a " Rechargeable Aerosol Spray CAnister " item # 12400 for $19.95 it might be worth checking out for that cheap money. The only differance I Found between DEFT and Pre -Cat Laquers is that if you spray Pre-Cat you are limited by the number of coats; although it has a thicker finnish per coat anything more than 4 coats is risky according to the Makers . Also I find it much more Brittle than N.C. Laquer. which is much thinner and prone to run if you try to put it on thick. I use both but love deft especcially after 20 plus coats. My cherry 5A Quilted and curly black walnut bathroom counter with its inlaid corian sink has at least 30very wet coats of Deft . and most people (non-wood) think I melted glass over it. The phone # for hood finnish is
1-800-229-0934 they are located in N.J.

Knoledge is Power
Good luck gettin the luster of your dreams
Matt
 
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