spindle roughing gouge

[Charlie Knighton]

i ordered a new spindle roughing gouge and received this gouge instead, the instructions say do not use the bevel ?????

any comments on this tool before i return it 😀😀 fastest shipping i have seen, ordered sunday received tuesday /it seems larger than the 5/8" descrition i could find



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRO-PM TURNING TOOLS USE ADVANCED POWDER METAL TECHNOLOGY
The Ellsworth Pro-PM signature gouge by Crown Tools of Sheffield, England is a well balanced, deep fluted bowl gouge with the classic Ellsworth side grind. Made from 5/8" bar stock and powder metal (PM) High Speed Steel, it has exceptional edge holding ability for the finest projects. The extra long handle provides additional leverage for deep hollowing. A set of detailed turning instructions from David Ellsworth is included:


Highly finished black ash handle has brass ferrule.
Packaged in plastic sleeve for protection and storage.
26" OAL, 5/8" bar diameter.
England.

List
131-543 ELLSWORTH PM SIGNATURE GOUGE Crown Tool 242EPMWS 8 EA

 

[MichaelMouse]

Must have been a number off in the SKU, eh?

That's an expensive gouge. Unless you have pangs of conscience, you might consider ordering your roughing gouge elsewhere. They're normally not too dear. I like my veteran 1.25" Sorby, but any with consistent thickness would do as well. About 10-20 cheaper.

Don't need a long handle on them, because they're designed to peel. Of course, if you really want THE gouge, try http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...op&Product_Code=IT-MARIO125&Category_Code=WIP Or you can rough spindles with a good straight chisel real handily.

 

[john lucas]

Sounds like a bad interpretation from chinese. I've had some good laughs over the years when reading instruction manuals. I've been fighting a new software program and the book is totally useless. I swear if computer people wrote a manual on how to use a hammer you would probably be driving with the claw end.

 

[LHauch]

Hi Charlie,

I have several of the Crown Pro-PM bowl gouges and really like the edge holding ability. While I don't have the Ellsworth signature gouge, I do have two of the 1/2" bowl gouges (5/8" dia.) with a standard bowl grind (final cuts on the inside of deep bowls) on one and a fingernail grind (rough profiling on the inside and out of larger pieces) on the other.

If you turn a lot, then you might want to consider keeping the gouge (you can always re-profile the tool if you don't like the Ellsworth profile.)

Compared to my M2 gouges, I find that I can turn almost 50% longer before having to sharpen the gouges. That percentage varies, depending on the wood I had some locust that the M2 gouge lost the edge after about profiling 2 cuts down a 10" vase, while I could get 3 cuts down with the Pro-PM before I started seeing some tear-out. Yes, I know, I sharpen a lot, but it cuts down on sanding! 😉

 

[LHauch]

As to not riding the bevel - one tip that I got from Jimmy Clewes this summer was that you should ride the bevel but the wood shouldn't know it. He also showed that for his finishing cuts, only a very small fraction of the bevel is riding on the wood (about 1/16th of an inch.)
My finishing cuts are looking a whole lot better after practicing his advise, so the Ellsworth instructions may be trying to communicate (not real well) this technique.
😀

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Unless you have pangs of conscience

well i tried to offer a low ball figure when i called them back ($50), they counted with $97, so its going back

as large as this gouge is, my question would one need a spindle roughing gouge if they used this large gouge 5/8, i do a lot of low speed out of balance stuff instead of round blanks so i use a spindle roughing gouge a lot and i am upgrading to a better tool 😕

 

[hockenbery]

Charlie,

"the instructions say do not use the bevel ?????"

The roughing cut not riding the bevel is extremely efficient and perhaps a more advanced use of the tool.
When roughing a form with the side ground gouge rotate the tool a bit so the bevel is off the wood and material is removed faster and no bumping the back of the bevel whe cutting air and wood.

On bowls I like doing this in a pulling motion as it allows me a good view of the form developing. I also like to take the last 1/4 of wood off with a bevel riding cut. the combined aggressiveness of the roughing combined with the large shaving removal creates some tearout.

Happy Turning,
Al

 

[Rob Wallace]

The spindle roughing gouge is for spindles....I HOPE...

as large as this gouge is, my question would one need a spindle roughing gouge if they used this large gouge 5/8, i do a lot of low speed out of balance stuff instead of round blanks so i use a spindle roughing gouge a lot and i am upgrading to a better tool 😕

Charlie:

Reading this, I'm a bit concerned.....It sounds like you might be using the spindle roughing gouge for "out of balance stuff"...... I assume this 'stuff' to be bowl blanks, since most spindle stock is usually not 'out of balance'.....

If you look at all the recent turning tool catalogs carefully ("Not for use on bowls"), and take heed of a lot of advice on the web, you should NOT be using a spindle roughing gouge on bowl blanks or other faceplate work, i.e. if the wood is being used cross grain in a chuck or using a faceplate (....end grain vessels are another story). SRG's are not meant to handle the stresses involved with roughing out of round/out of balance cross-grain turnings - they are now called SPINDLE roughing gouges for a good reason.

SRGs are typically NOT made out of rod stock (as are the P&N SRGs), and the thin part of the tool's tang can snap off during a bad catch. Please don't use them for roughing cross-grain bowls !!! You are asking for trouble!!!

For roughing out your blanks, I would use a 1/2" or 5/8" bowl gouge (one of my favorites is the Ellsworth gouge, by the way!). Keep the SRG on your tool rack for use on spindles or other between-centers work..... There are any number of demonstrations and videos available to show how this is done correctly with a bowl gouge.

If this is not the case, I apologize, but if so, I hope this may have saved you some grief, time, money, or injury.....

Turn Safely,

Rob Wallace

 

[MichaelMouse]

well i tried to offer a low ball figure when i called them back ($50), they counted with $97, so its going back

as large as this gouge is, my question would one need a spindle roughing gouge if they used this large gouge 5/8, i do a lot of low speed out of balance stuff instead of round blanks so i use a spindle roughing gouge a lot and i am upgrading to a better tool 😕

Well, the advantage to the roughing gouge is that it is uniform in both thickness and angle. Means you've got a sweet spot that runs all the way around. Disadvantage is that you can't or don't want to reach with it, and it takes up a lot of room, so you seldom want to even try to use it inside. Not a problem normally, but if you're going to have lots of air in the final circle you might want to consider another tool. If you can close up fairly tight to the piece with your rest you can whittle away high spots pretty rapidly with sweeps, transitioning to pushes as you develop a place to reference the bevel. It takes great wide shavings because it can put a lot of steel on the wood, cutting progressively deeper without thickening the shaving.

Pulling cuts put you in the throw zone, which is silly, especially for the outside work. Working a side grind rather than a tool supported on its side makes little sense from a control standpoint as well. Even when pulling inside, which I do to clear the pillar in my roughing, you want to be careful of the roll angle so you don't throw shavings back into your face, and you'll find that plunge and roll type sweeps are much easier on the arm. If you have an interior long and strong ground fingernail to long wing, the Rougher or the pattern shown in the picture below or the HUGE Mario referenced are the upgrades.

Note that the edge, as the wood sees it, is the same, but the rest supports the tool and the operator pushes it with the one on the left. Further benefit for we right-handers, is that the cut is L to R!

 

[Charlie Knighton]

out of balance

i turn mostly vases huh... hollow forms, i start the out of balance piece between centers and make a cylinder, decide which part of cylinder i would like as top and which bottom, then go from there most of my wood is found wood that is split along the grain

("Not for use on bowls"), is a great description for catalogue tools, and no offense taken Rob, it is something that constantly needs repeating, there are people taking up woodturning daily

i was just wondering as this is a large and they call it a roughing gouge it could be used as a spindle roughing gouge or in place of a spindle roughing gouge or is there any advantage of using it on out of balance pieces between centers, (i should add between centers)

 

[rsser]

Charlie, if you're roughing out to a form, not just a cylinder, it will work fine. You'd might want to grind it pretty much straight across in that case as the wings are designed for scraping and slicing. But you could use these techniques once your form was smooth all round to refine the shape.

I have a HSS version and like it for bowls and platters. There's quite a lot to using it though. If you PM me your email address I can forward a copy of Ellsworth's schematics on tool presentation for various purposes. And his DVD on the tool is worth the dough if you want to get the most out of the tool.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Ellsworth signature gouge

Charlie-I use them exclusively. Have 3 going at one time so sharpen 3 at a time. He (David) says NOTto use the bevel until the final finsh. It is used horizontally on the tool bar, not elevated. I have used them for years (I think I have 8-9 "dead" ones (ie can't get them in my jig anymore) waiting to use them with free hand sharpening.) Finish cut on the outside is a pulling cut with the flute (top edge 1/8 inch away)facing the bowl, while the inside finish cut the flute is pointing up and the side bevel rubs. Can't say as I use them the way David describes. Maybe it's because of the way I have ground them.
Charlie-they obviously just sent you the wrong tool. They used to be $72 but have gone up in price the last 2 years.
As many have mentioned before, you get used to the tool and grind you use and adapt. Doesn;t mean to say there isn't an easier or better way. Gretch

 

[john lucas]

A lot of old time turners used rough out gouges with the bevel cut really steep, like 60 to80 degrees. Then they didn't rub the bevel and kept the tool more or less level with the floor. This was just a rough cut to get things round because you got a lot tearout. It is fast and with this steep an angle the gouge held an edge pretty good. that's the way I learned. I don't do that anymore. I prefer bevel rubbing cuts. It's not as fast at removing wood but I feel I spend less time cleaning up the mess and with a tool sharpened at about 45 degrees I can cut all but the finishing passes with this same tool. Then I pick up the skew and spindle gouge and finish the project.