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Spindle gouge vs skew

Steven Forrest

Steven Forrest

Joined
Dec 23, 2014
Messages
218
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357
Location
Sebastopol, California
Anybody care to compare/comment on the relative strengths and weaknesses of spindle gouges vs skews? I've been watching pro turners do things with skews and make it look easy. I know for myself that the spindle gouge is just much easier to control, and you still get a clean surface. Why would you use a skew when you can use a spindle gouge, or vice versa?
 
A skew can give you much cleaner cuts on flats and convex surfaces (eg beads), is very fast for roughing and peeling cuts to reduce diameter. The long point is unparalleled for fine details, as well as for a near perfect surface on end grain and fillets. It is challenging to impossible to make concave cuts (coves) with a skew, which is where the gouge excels.

I hate sanding so I've been willing to invest in the somewhat more challenging learning curve of using the skew. Probably because I use them much less I no longer find the spindle gouge to be easier to control. just the opposite.
 
On most woods A skew gives a much cleaner surface. Crisper details on vee cuts, pommels, beads
There are some wood where I do better with a spindle gouge than a skew bacote is one.

When I do ornament finials I turn coves with fingernail grind spindle gouge the other parts are turned with a skew.
I start sanding the skew turned parts with 320 the spindle gouge parts with 220

I turn cylinders with different tools

Cylinder surfaces. In general order of smoothness - my opinion
1. Skew with 30 degree bevel
2. A pull cut with an Ellsworth grind bowl gouge
3. Continental spindle gouge 30 degree bevel
4. Spindle gouge with fingernail grind
5. Spindle roughing gouge

All give a smooth surface I can sand with 220 on most woods.
The skew and Ellsworth I can usually sand with 320
I usually turn goblet stems with the Ellsworth bowl gouge.

Skew peeling cut is terrific for making tenons on spindles.
 
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Skews take the most practice of any of the tools (other than my fluteless gouge) and by practice I mean, daily use and/or practice cuts for a while before turning the actual item, if skew has not been used in a while. fine muscle memory and all that. at least for me (and I cannot say I have yet mastered the skew, either, but after some practice time with it I can do a pretty good job, and as mentioned in some cases the finish is far preferrable than that of a gouge or scraper)
 
I use both a lot. Some days the skew is better for me and some days the spindle gouge. Not sure why that is. It's obviously about practice and usage. If I'm having trouble with the skew I simply switch to the spindle gouge. I find the spindle gouge a little rough to get a long clean line then I switch to the skew.
 
The operator is the only weakness for a skew. With it's long bevel you can shoot long cylinders and tapers very smoothly and with true. But a close second in the weakness category is the factory grind. Most are useless out of the box except for high end tools like Thompson or Carter. A properly held and sharpened spindle roughing gouge can come close to the skew if presented properly, but the bevel is not nearly as long and the true flat surface suffers a little. Gouges is a broad term, continental gouge, detail gouge, spindle roughing, and then the length of the bevel on each. Watch videos by Alan Lacer, and John Lucas to get quality information. There are pro turners, and then there are pro YouTube turners. The first has honed their skills to a very high level, the second category have tuned their marketing methods but are there to get subscribers. Lots of poor instruction on YouTube!
 
Richard Coers said:
But a close second in the weakness category is the factory grind. Most are useless out of the box except for high end tools like Thompson or Carter.
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I always wonder why people worry about the "factory grind" on any turning tool. It's gone after the first time you sharpen the tool unless you jump through a whole lot of hoops and measurements to reproduce it; even then unless it was done on a jig and you can exactly reproduce the jig setup it will probably be different. When I get a new tool I try the factory grind to see if I can learn something from it, but then on the first sharpening usually change it to a profile I like better, or at least am more used to.

I bet if you ask everyone in your club to bring in their "Ellsworth" or 40/40 ground gouge or Lacer-style skew for close comparison every one of them will be different.
 
john lucas said:
look up Steve Jones on facebook if you want to see someone who is unbelievable good with the skew.
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John, I follow Steve on Instagram. His almost daily overhead turning videos, often doing fine detail work with a skew, are a revelation. It literally almost looks like magic to me, though I know it's just decades of production turning that have honed his incredible skills.
 
Thanks for the responses, folks. Yes, I have checked out both Steve Jones and Richard Findley (also excellent!), Kip Christiansen's scales and chords video, Alan Batty...John Lucas, you're next in the queue! Went out last night and did a little practice with a beading/parting tool. It was great, except when it wasn't. That's the tricky part - reverse engineering the catches to figure out what went wrong, because it's just so destructive when it happens. The good thing about the videos is they show what is possible, all the little details that help, etc. It's hard to analyze your own failures, though, to figure out how to avoid them. You think you're doing it right - then BAM.
 
Steven Forrest said:
Thanks for the responses, folks. Yes, I have checked out both Steve Jones and Richard Findley (also excellent!), Kip Christiansen's scales and chords video, Alan Batty...John Lucas, you're next in the queue! Went out last night and did a little practice with a beading/parting tool. It was great, except when it wasn't. That's the tricky part - reverse engineering the catches to figure out what went wrong, because it's just so destructive when it happens. The good thing about the videos is they show what is possible, all the little details that help, etc. It's hard to analyze your own failures, though, to figure out how to avoid them. You think you're doing it right - then BAM.
Click to expand...
Set up your phone to video your cuts while practicing. Doesn't have to be high production video but it's instant replay for the mistake you made.
 
When I did skew camp with Alan Lacer he had us intentionally create catches of various kinds so we could really get a feeling for how they go wrong. A good understanding of what not to do is a very helpful addition to instruction on what to do. At very slow speed you could see exactly what was happening.
 
I learned to use the skew on a spring pole lathe. Catches are so minor and you can see exactly what happens. One of my good friends starts all beginners on the skew. He hand rotates the wood so they can feel it cut. Then he runs the lathe at slow speed. By days end they are all using the skew. He said it helps them learn how the bevel of the tools work and makes it easier to use gouges.
 
I very rarely use a gouge my main weapon is the skew. When I first started turning over 50 yrs ago I used all sorts of tools. the trick to all the tools is the bevel when you learn how the bevel alters the cut then you will have mastered that tool be it a gouge or skew. The skew has basicaly three posistions for cutting these are the point, centre and the heel most catches occur when you drop below the centre line. In my experience the skew is the most versatile tool and if used correctly will leave you with very little sanding work to do I have a number of different size skew chisels that I use.
Dont worry to much we have all sent wood flyiong out of the lathe learning to control a skew its par of the course,
Cheers Mike
 
john lucas said:
it helps them learn how the bevel of the tools work and makes it easier to use gouges.
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I don't use a skew much. But when I have, I see this is true. The cutting edge (bevel) of the skew is obvious and easily seen, and it is straight (vs the curve on a gouge). That removes a lot of the uncertainty about how and why it's cutting. That knowledge transfers pretty well to just about any other cutting tool.

I really need to get a good skew and start using it...
 
I still attempt to use the skew. There may be some hope for me yet. One sharpening tip that I picked up was that the burr needs to be stropped off. Even with a 1000 grit diamond card, there is a burr. A bit of honing/polishing compound on a piece of leather or even MDF, and the burr is gone. Some woods seem to do much better with the skew. Most of mine have a slight arc to the profile rather than being straight. The Woodturner 21 guy seems to have almost no sweep to the edge. Drives me nuts to watch him turn tight coves with the skew...... More practice is needed!

robo hippy
 
Still learning on the Alan Lacer UberSkew, and looking to get others. I bring back the edge with the Alan Lacer 600-grit diamond slipstone, the 3-grade diamond paddle progression, and stropped on a fire-hose strop sprayed with .5 micron diamond spray until it shaves leg hair. Learning and feeling the confidence to use it to its fullest potential will take years at least.
 
I very much appreciate the detailed and humane responses. I think going slowly, even hand turning the wood, is a productive path. After watching the videos, I found myself trying to do everything smoothly and quickly - just like the experts! But when I finally slowed my pulse after a catch and slowed my movements way down, it got (a little) better. So I'll practice and try some things over the next few days and report back. Also, will try the honing suggestion. I don't hone gouges - but maybe it'll be worth it for the skew.
 
Thats the way keep on with the practise and take your time may I suggest that you learn how to control the point and what you can do with it on the skew first then progress from there.
Good luck Mike
 
I think the skew requires more finesse to the movements as you use the tool. When rolling a bead for example if there is any sudden or jerky (for lack of a better description) movements it's really easy to come off the bevel and dig in getting a get back as the result.
 
Steven Forrest said:
. Also, will try the honing suggestion. I don't hone gouges - but maybe it'll be worth it for the skew.
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Gouges only have one bevel and direction of cut. Skews are bi-directional, having a bevel on both sides and designed to be used on both sides. Any edge with the burr down will not cut worth squat. A skew will do fine with the burr up, but not worth squat with the burr down. You will find a significant improvement by STROPPING the burr. Even honing with 1200 gr will leave a slight burr. Strop the burr off then strop the other side a little.
 
Hi

I recently made a video for the AWGB on the beading and parting tool, a tool I use a huge amount as a production spindle turner. Many see it just as a heavy parting tool but it is far more versatile than that and I use it as a hybrid parting tool and small skew. When selecting a tool I am always looking for versatility, if one tool can do a range of cuts then it is (in my opinion) better than having 2 or 3 tools to do the same jobs. The video is here if you have 20 minutes free. Throughout the video, I am using my Signature version of the tool, which is a more refined version of the standard tool and comes ground as I use it in the workshop every day.

I hope you find it interesting and helpful.

Richard
 
Mark Jundanian said:
Interesting video, @Richard Findley .
The beading and parting tool has some outward similarities to a bedan. Makes me wonder if the bedan could be used in a similar fashion?
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Hi Mark

Yes, the Bedan is very similar. If you watch Jean Francois Escoulen or Yann Marot, they both use a Bedan much as I do the Beading and Parting tool. The bedan is a traditional French tool and the Beading and Parting tool is British, but the roots are the same.

Richard
 
Richard Findley said:
Hi

I recently made a video for the AWGB on the beading and parting tool, a tool I use a huge amount as a production spindle turner. Many see it just as a heavy parting tool but it is far more versatile than that and I use it as a hybrid parting tool and small skew. When selecting a tool I am always looking for versatility, if one tool can do a range of cuts then it is (in my opinion) better than having 2 or 3 tools to do the same jobs. The video is here if you have 20 minutes free. Throughout the video, I am using my Signature version of the tool, which is a more refined version of the standard tool and comes ground as I use it in the workshop every day.

I hope you find it interesting and helpful.

Richard
Click to expand...
Richard,
I've already watched your excellent video a couple of times.
Your advice to keep the tip to where it is peeling up a little flare of wood has really helped. Any further tips on the 3-D rotation of the tool as it moves from cutting along the side of the blank to cutting across the blank as you approach the center?
 
Good video Richard. I leave the edge of the bevel sharp. I use it like a shear scraper to clean up the sides if the cut.
 
Steven Forrest said:
Richard,
I've already watched your excellent video a couple of times.
Your advice to keep the tip to where it is peeling up a little flare of wood has really helped. Any further tips on the 3-D rotation of the tool as it moves from cutting along the side of the blank to cutting across the blank as you approach the center?
Click to expand...
The main thing is to move smoothly, with confidence and keep going forward. I always say (only half joking) that a skew can smell fear! The main cause of catches is what I call fishing. What I mean by that is when you lose the cut you should stop, then start again rather than ‘fishing’ to try and pick up the cut again.
 
john lucas said:
Good video Richard. I leave the edge of the bevel sharp. I use it like a shear scraper to clean up the sides if the cut.
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That’s a handy technique at time and there is still enough edge to do that. I round the heel to smooth out cuts, much as you would on a bowl or spindle gouge. It can make cutting pommels with a slicing cut much smoother.
 
Richard Findley said:
The main thing is to move smoothly, with confidence and keep going forward. I always say (only half joking) that a skew can smell fear! The main cause of catches is what I call fishing. What I mean by that is when you lose the cut you should stop, then start again rather than ‘fishing’ to try and pick up the cut again.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I have noticed that a large proportion of catches come when I am trying to pick up a cut again, and am not doing my ABCs.
 
Although this post is about spindle gouge vs. Skew/bedan/beading parting tool. To understand what tool is most efficient, you have to understand how you plan to use the tool... what you are planning on turning and what are the tools limits?
If you are production turning a large spindle that is later going to be painted... then speed, not finish is the goal and you may even consider a bowl gouge. If it is delicate work like small spindles on a Windsor chair and you want a nice finish right off the lathe with little sanding.... perhaps a skew. Turning lots of coves... spindle gouge. If you need really fine detail on something thin like a trembler... you may want a French Bedan (30 degrees but the tip because of the concave grind is even less degree and can reach really tight spaces and because it is used bevel up there is less pressure into the work reducing vibration) Also to consider: What tool are you most comfortable using? A skew has less fulcrum support higher up on its edge, where small round skew has the most support making it less likely to catch. Is the wood domestic or exotic? What angle will affect the cut as well as the amount of turning motion such as swing in making a bead. Are you a hobbiest or is this your livelihood? All these things make a huge difference on what tool and size you choose to use. The best tool for one person may not be the best tool for another. Understanding the options is key to choosing what is best for your situation.
 
Donna that is a great reponse and very true. Even though I prefer the skew to the gouge I do occasionaly use the gouge if the piece that I am turning is very irregular in shape as the skew can be dangerous in this situation but once I have turned a rouind or nearly round on oneend I then revert back to the skew. But please remember that i have been using the skew for well over 20 years.
Chers mike
 
Steven Forrest said:
Absolutely. I have noticed that a large proportion of catches come when I am trying to pick up a cut again, and am not doing my ABCs.
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I don't teach a lot, but I tell those I'm teaching how to use the skew to commit to the cut. I see a lot of newcomers get tentative 1/2 way through the cut (especially beads) and that's when a catch usually happens.
 
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