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Spalted Wood

Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
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Location
North Charleston, SC
Some of the utility bowls I make have some spalting in them. They weren't spalted to the point where they were soft or punky. Another turner saw them and said they were not food safe because of the spalting. I finish them with two coats of Mahoney's Walnut Oil. Any thoughts on this?
 
Won't hurt a thing, Paul. Put a nice healthy salad in there and they'll be good for you. 🙂

John

Paul,

The mustachioed man from Cane Ridge is absolutely correct.

The fungi that cause spalting attack the wood and do not produce toxins per se, especially in the sense of aflatoxins which ARE quite dangerous. There are many many misconceptions about spalted wood, the most interesting being that there are spores in the wood and that you could become infected with them! Simply not true! Precautions about inhaling dust from spalted wood (and thus increase the potential to inhale fungal hyphae within the wood that do contain antigenic fungal proteins) IS a concern that should be heeded by the turner.

If someone does have an allergic sensitivity developed against fungal proteins, the likelihood is that they would be more adversely effected by eating a simple mushroom than they would be by eating from a bowl made of spalted wood, especially if treated with a "drying" oil like Mahoney's. Go ahead and use the bowl!

Rob Wallace
 
Paul, while what they have said is 100% true, about the action that causes spalting

It is not true of all wood fungus. There is a type, native to Australia, that is fatal. Why this is important is it has been found in the Seattle/Vancouver-BC area.

It's Cryptococcus gattii

So far, it appears to be rare(ish) but way too often fatal.

TTFN
Ralph
 
Paul,

The mustachioed man from Cane Ridge is absolutely correct.

The fungi that cause spalting attack the wood and do not produce toxins per se, especially in the sense of aflatoxins which ARE quite dangerous. There are many many misconceptions about spalted wood, the most interesting being that there are spores in the wood and that you could become infected with them! Simply not true! Precautions about inhaling dust from spalted wood (and thus increase the potential to inhale fungal hyphae within the wood that do contain antigenic fungal proteins) IS a concern that should be heeded by the turner.

If someone does have an allergic sensitivity developed against fungal proteins, the likelihood is that they would be more adversely effected by eating a simple mushroom than they would be by eating from a bowl made of spalted wood, especially if treated with a "drying" oil like Mahoney's. Go ahead and use the bowl!

Rob Wallace

So Rob-are there spores in the wood, and not toxin??? and therefore safe?? Can the spores make toxin in the woodturner lungs?? Can these spores get into the users lungs when a "finish" may disappear from the bowl years down the road?? Or is there just too few spores that would make toxin??
Does kiln drying do anything to the spores?? Thanks for your expertise, Gretch
 
The spores make fungi. They are its "seeds," and are produced in the fruiting bodies (e.g.mushrooms) for dispersal by the air. Imagine what an evolutionary dead end it would be to rely on woodchoppers or woodturners to release and disperse your potential offspring!

Fungi and bacteria have been fighting over the same or similar food supplies for billions of years. Think of penicillin, and you'll understand how fungi protect their chow from the competition. No wonder that most antibacterials come from fungi. The mycelium makes the toxins.
 
A bit more detail about spalting....

So Rob-are there spores in the wood, and not toxin??? and therefore safe?? Can the spores make toxin in the woodturner lungs?? Can these spores get into the users lungs when a "finish" may disappear from the bowl years down the road?? Or is there just too few spores that would make toxin??
Does kiln drying do anything to the spores?? Thanks for your expertise, Gretch

Good Questions Gretch!

Growth and Metabolism
In general, wood rotting fungi exist in the wood as thin filaments - known as hyphae (the collective mass of these is known as a mycelium). These are living cells that secrete enzymes and other chemicals into the wood to digest it, and then absorb the nutrients into the filamentous cells for the organism's nutrition. None of this cellular activity produces spores within the wood (see below). In some fungi, additional products of metabolism are organic chemicals that are toxic to some other microbes, such as bacteria. Thus, fungal sources are where we get many of our antibiotic drugs (e.g. penicillin, streptomycin, etc.). In some cases these additional compounds can be considered toxic, depending on what organisms are being considered. Most wood rotting fungi that I am aware of do not produce aflatoxins or other serious toxins that we need to be worried about.

BTW - the reason why there are spalt lines (i.e. black 'zone' lines) in the wood is that there are different fungal clones or different species growing in the wood at the same time. They are competing for the same resource (the wood and its many carbohydrates and nutrients), and when they come in contact with one another in the wood, they wall-off their own zone from competing fungi with dark-colored compounds, and we are the beneficiaries of this process through the creation of the black lines and other discoloration produced by the fungi as a defensive strategy.


Reproduction
When the fungus organism has matured sufficiently, and the environmental conditions are correct, it wants to reproduce (...or at least try.....like most of us!). To do so it wants to produce cells that will help spread the fungus around the environment. It would make no sense to develop these spore-producing structures in the wood, so it produces them on the surface of the wood in a variety of different structures (somewhat inaccurately called "fruiting bodies") which can be seen as mushrooms, bracket fungi, puff-ball like structures, etc. - all of which are on the wood surface and in contact with the air. When the spores mature and are released from these structures, they are carried around in air currents ("wind") to be deposited where they may germinate and grow into a new fungal organism (...they are not plants!). Because the fungal (or "mold") spores are living organisms, they contain proteins and a few other compounds that elicit an allergic reaction that develops in humans, with severity depending on individual sensitivity. Thus, people DO have allergic reactions to fungi, whether they get their antigens from airborne fungal spores, or from airborne fungal hyphae liberated from the wood through cutting or sanding. This is where turners need to be careful about fungal allergies. If you remove any spore producing structures from the surfaces of the spalted wood, the chances of inhaling spores is greatly reduced. There should be no spores found within the wood itself (...of course there's always the possibility of surface contamination from external sources of spores, I suppose). Finished and dried bowls and other turned forms should not elicit allergic reactions unless the wood is damaged and inhaled (or otherwise given contact to the immune system). I suppose in hypersensitive individuals there could be some reaction, but this would certainly be an extreme case [disclaimer].

Pathogenicity
Spores from fungi that spalt wood have adapted to decompose wood and generally do not act pathogenically within lungs. The Cryptococcus fungi mentioned above are not generally associated with wood or wood spalting, especially in temperate regions. These spores need to be inhaled for them to become pathogenic. While one may have allergic reactions to inhaled fungal spores, it would be an extreme case for spores from wood spalting fungi to germinate within the lungs or bronchial tubes to develop a bona fide fungal infection (pulmonary mycosis).

Kiln drying of wood would serve to kill living fungal hyphae through dehydration and thermal denaturing of proteins, but likely will not eliminate the allergenic effects of inhaling dust-borne pieces of fungal hyphae. One would still have to take precautions against inhaling ANY fungal products (hyphae or spores) to reduce or eliminate the chances of developing or inciting an allergic reaction. Kiln dried wood dust could cause allergic response if inhaled, etc. so take precautions with this too.

Perhaps this is more than you asked or wanted to know (?), however I hope this makes understanding spalted wood a bit more easy for the woodturner, and what precautions need to be taken.

(Let me know if there are still questions....)

Rob Wallace
 
Mr. Wallace, Your Opinion Please

Mr. Wallace,
What a wonderful tutorial on fungi and spalting. I learned much; thank you.
I had heard horror stories about turners getting spores growing in their brains from turning spalted wood. I have avoided spalted wood for that reason.

Since I have no experience with the fungal proteins of which you speak, would I be wise to take an antihistamine as a prophylactic before I turn a spalted piece or would a dust mask be sufficient?

Thank you for your assistance,
c--
 
Mr. Wallace,
What a wonderful tutorial on fungi and spalting. I learned much; thank you.
I had heard horror stories about turners getting spores growing in their brains from turning spalted wood. I have avoided spalted wood for that reason.

Since I have no experience with the fungal proteins of which you speak, would I be wise to take an antihistamine as a prophylactic before I turn a spalted piece or would a dust mask be sufficient?

Thank you for your assistance,
c--

Won't speak for Mr. Wallace, but I use a Netty pot to rinse my siniuses after each session with spalted or exotic woods. I also wear a mask during the turning and sanding.
 
Mr. Debski

Thank you for the recommendation. I do actually own a netty pot. Just have never gotten around to trying it. Now, I have a good excuse to use it.
Thank you,
c--
 
Mr. Wallace,
What a wonderful tutorial on fungi and spalting. I learned much; thank you.
I had heard horror stories about turners getting spores growing in their brains from turning spalted wood. I have avoided spalted wood for that reason.

Since I have no experience with the fungal proteins of which you speak, would I be wise to take an antihistamine as a prophylactic before I turn a spalted piece or would a dust mask be sufficient?

Thank you for your assistance,
c--

I doubt highly that using an antihistamine prophylactically will help against your body building antibodies against fungal proteins you take into your body. I think that the immune reaction will take place nonetheless. Antihistamines act by blocking the binding of histamine to histamine receptors. Your body will generate antibodies against foreign proteins whether antihistamines are present in your body or not. The presence of antihistamines may reduce the allergic response symptoms in subsequent "insults" of exposure to these antigens, but will not reduce or eliminate the immune response your body has to building antibodies to invading foreign proteins.

Regardless of what the wood is (whether spalted or not) some form of dust protection is necessary, in my opinion. I'm not sure what you mean by "a dust mask" (because these vary by kind and efficiency), but any inhalation of dust from spalted wood increases the chances of developing sensitivity to fungal proteins. I can't responsibly give you any better advice than avoiding wood dust in any form, and certainly can't say that "a dust mask is sufficient".

Like the sergeant used to say on Hill Street Blues before the patrol officers would head out on their shift..., "Be careful out there!"

Rob Wallace
 
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Another educational post. Thank you, Mr. Wallace, for your information.
,
You too, Be Careful Out There,🙂
c--
 
Benadryl is a symptom reliever. It can also be a life-saver when the symptom is a life-threatening one. Those strange tropical woods with their chemical-factory ingredients lists produce reactions all the time. Far more commonly than spalted woods. Most are merely an uncomfortable dermatological reaction. Take the relief, avoid the agent thereafter.

Do the same IF you find you are sensitive to molds and their by-products. Sensitization comes through repeated exposure, and in most cases, it didn't start with, nor will it end with spalted wood, but with that yeech under the mat in the bathtub, in the crawlspace, or some of the strange things that appear in the bottom drawer of the refrigerator. Go get some advice on sensitivity treatment versus symptomatic response for the ones you can't avoid.

ANY RESPIRATORY SYMPTOM should be treated immediately and a call placed to to your 9-1-1 center. Things can go downhill fast.
 
This was a good thread to review.

On another note: For years, I've had a rash come and go on my face and upper middle chest......about 3-4 times per year. My doctor had prescribed several medications for this, but nothing seemed to work. About two years ago, in an act of desperation, I put some anti-fungal athletes foot medication on the rash, and the problem has become much less of an issue. Rash is not as bad and frequency/duration is less.......not a cure, but it seems certain the athlete's foot medication has a positive effect. I am now using the athlete's foot medication on a daily basis.......wish I could say the problem is completely gone, but it's certainly not as dramatic, or as frequent as it had been.

It had never occurred to me, over the years, that this condition may be related to my woodturning, but it now seems a strong possibility that it is. Since the medication is "anti-fungal", I now suspect that spalted woods might have something to do with it......don't know for sure. If my woodturning is related to this at all, it might be other woods that are involved with the issue..........? 😕

I'm putting this information forth for contemplation......and, I'm not completely sure my woodturning is the source of the rash, but it is suspect.

If anyone else has any similarity to this, please let us know.......:cool2:

ooc
 
Now I wonder... what will happen to me, when I start final turning the spalted maple bowls... will I at least live long enough to spend the money earned from the sales of the bowls? 🙂

Depends. How well do your bowls sell? And, how long does it take you to spend money? 😀
 
Have to say that spalt sells well for me. Lots of visual interest in a well-spalted piece. It's worth a little extra effort in finish over unspalted, as well, because people who buy it generally don't plan to use it for popcorn, but as an accent. They will also spend more for what may not take as long to make! Sort of like the warp-and-go interrupted edge stuff.

Given the relative rarity of even zoonoses, it's hard to imagine that what feeds on cellulosic sugars would find sustenance in lipids. Could be sensitivity to the mycotoxins causing dermatitis which is soothed by the lotion base of the Micatin.
 
This was a good thread to review.

On another note: For years, I've had a rash come and go on my face and upper middle chest......about 3-4 times per year. My doctor had prescribed several medications for this, but nothing seemed to work. About two years ago, in an act of desperation, I put some anti-fungal athletes foot medication on the rash, and the problem has become much less of an issue. Rash is not as bad and frequency/duration is less.......not a cure, but it seems certain the athlete's foot medication has a positive effect. I am now using the athlete's foot medication on a daily basis.......wish I could say the problem is completely gone, but it's certainly not as dramatic, or as frequent as it had been.

It had never occurred to me, over the years, that this condition may be related to my woodturning, but it now seems a strong possibility that it is. Since the medication is "anti-fungal", I now suspect that spalted woods might have something to do with it......don't know for sure. If my woodturning is related to this at all, it might be other woods that are involved with the issue..........? 😕

I'm putting this information forth for contemplation......and, I'm not completely sure my woodturning is the source of the rash, but it is suspect.

If anyone else has any similarity to this, please let us know.......:cool2:

ooc

Odie,

Get yourself to a different doctor, specifically a well respected dermatologist.
 
Depends. How well do your bowls sell? And, how long does it take you to spend money? 😀

LOL! I love your humor 🙂

Have to say that spalt sells well for me. Lots of visual interest in a well-spalted piece. It's worth a little extra effort in finish over unspalted, as well, because people who buy it generally don't plan to use it for popcorn, but as an accent. They will also spend more for what may not take as long to make! Sort of like the warp-and-go interrupted edge stuff.

Given the relative rarity of even zoonoses, it's hard to imagine that what feeds on cellulosic sugars would find sustenance in lipids. Could be sensitivity to the mycotoxins causing dermatitis which is soothed by the lotion base of the Micatin.

Very much agreed Michael! 🙂

😕 the second paragraph, that was 90 per cent latin, I quite didn't get.
 
Odie,

Get yourself to a different doctor, specifically a well respected dermatologist.

Preferably one who is not primarily in business for cosmetic enhancements. The dermatologist that I have always gone to for treatment of skin conditions seems to now be mainly focused on cosmetic things like Botox injections, nips, tucks, lifts, and implants. His new office looks more like a salon. I had some suspicious lesions on my arms that turned out to be malignant, but he was too busy with cosmetic stuff to treat serious conditions.
 
I would agree with the suggestion to see a dermatologist, Odie. It's pretty hard, though not impossible, to get fungal skin problems in the northern Rockies, which is where I assume you live. The athlete's foot product may be helping for a reason other than fungus.
The likeliest diagnosis based on the location would be seborrheic dermatitis, but you should have had that off and on since you were a baby. As an adult, rosacea would fit, but as a wood turner, you might be getting a contact dermatitis from wood dust. If it's the latter, the dermatologist can do a patch test, which is basically taking a little of what you might be reacting to, putting some on a band aid and sticking the band aid on you to see what happens. He/she might have to test different woods to find the right one. As a pretty compulsive guy, you might be able to help by noting what uncommon wood you were working a day or two prior to it starting. If it's rosacea, he or she will probably have some better remedies than your regular doctor.
 
I would agree with the suggestion to see a dermatologist, Odie. It's pretty hard, though not impossible, to get fungal skin problems in the northern Rockies, which is where I assume you live. The athlete's foot product may be helping for a reason other than fungus.
The likeliest diagnosis based on the location would be seborrheic dermatitis, but you should have had that off and on since you were a baby. As an adult, rosacea would fit, but as a wood turner, you might be getting a contact dermatitis from wood dust. If it's the latter, the dermatologist can do a patch test, which is basically taking a little of what you might be reacting to, putting some on a band aid and sticking the band aid on you to see what happens. He/she might have to test different woods to find the right one. As a pretty compulsive guy, you might be able to help by noting what uncommon wood you were working a day or two prior to it starting. If it's rosacea, he or she will probably have some better remedies than your regular doctor.

Thanks, Dean.......and to those who also have offered some thought and advice......here, and by personal message.

Living in the Northern Rockies probably has little to do with it, since I've been using wood from worldwide sources. For 95 percent of that, domestically grown woods are the majority, though.

Yes, it's correct that the anti-fungal foot creme seems to be doing the job......and, I can live with only minimal outbreaks. Good idea about trying to pinpoint a particular wood species, but it would be hard to be conclusive, since I usually work with several kinds of wood on any given week.

I've already used some medications specifically targeting psoriasis and rosacea, and nothing can be concluded from these medications. Years ago, I did see a dermatologist, and the condition seemed like a mystery to that doctor. For the past decade, the only doctor I've discussed this with is my personal physician.

Bottom line, though.......the condition is nowhere near what it's been in the past........probably the worst of this was in the 1980's, so at this point, I feel the rashes are being controlled to the point where I can live with it......but, true, if I had a cure.......that would be better. I think, but don't know it's the case, that once the rash developes, it's too late to eliminate it. Once it's there, the only real option is to treat the symptoms.......kind of like a common cold.

Thanks......

ooc
 
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